How do we Space Wolves adapt to the new phobos units?

[TSkouboe]

The new phobos units have been out for a little while now, and they're offering nice new things to the Space Marine range.

 

To me, they seem very geared towards medium (24"-30") to close range (12-18") shooting with few melee capabilities. So they don't seem right for us Wolves. Still, several of them seem good for their points, and look fun to play.

 

 

What are your thoughts on the phobos range?

 

1. Which units are good as Space Wolves?

In other words, which units can use our Hunters Unleashed ability enough?

 

2. Which units work well with our unique units?

I.e. Wulfen, melee dreadnoughts, Thunderwolves, Stormwolf.

 

3. Which HQ's are good for us?

I like how close phobos characters can start to the enemy, but they have too few melee options.

 

[Karhedron]

The unit that looks most promising to me are Incursors. For 95 points you get a 5-man squad that knocks the socks off Scouts.

 

• Usual Primaris statline so more than twice as durable as Scouts.
• Troop unit (unlike our "elite" version :( ).
• Ignore Cover and negative to-Hit modifiers with their shooting (Raven Guard and Alatitoc are going to hate these guys).
• Their paired combat blades work really well with our Chapter Trait as they double hits on a 5+ on the turn they charge as well as +1A.

I can see a couple of units getting a lot of mileage. If you want to play aggressively, deploy close to the enemy and go for the T1 charge. They are not heavy hitters but they generate an impressive volume of S4 hits for their points making them great for clearing screens. If you want to play more conservatively, use them to grab midfield Objectives, screen you lines or block enemy infiltrators. They can also be used provide some protection for Jump Smash Lords and the like.

 

Plus you can give each squad a Haywire mine. The chance to lay down an extra D3 Mortal wounds is never a bad idea.

[Karhedron]

Sniper Eliminators are also good for us, not so much because they work well with our special rules but simply because they fill a niche. We do not get regular Sniper Scouts so Sniper Eliminators fill that role nicely of taking out sneaky enemy characters who hide from glorious combat. :D Also they are a cheap Heavy unit which can be handy if you are looking to build a Brigade.

 

I don't think that Las Fusil Eliminators have so much to offer us as I think our Long Fangs are better for infantry heavy weapons due to natively rerolling 1s.

[PeteySödes]

I took some infiltrators to an event this weekend and they were really nice. I couldnt really reliably kill stuff but they were a really wonderful wrench unit that i messed up peoples deployments with. In cover it took some real doing for my opponents to remove them.

[TiguriusX]

phobos help SW more than other marines because we have no troop slot that infiltrates.

 

 

i use infiltrators and eliminators in my army.

 

infiltrators are expensive but super utility scouts and keep my main body safe from tricks and seize important terrain pre game

 

i have experimented with as many as 3 units in a list but prefer only 1

[PeteySödes]

Yea one seems to fill a nice sweet spot. I thought that i would be using them more as DS bubble wrap but the infiltrate is just too useful to not take advantage of. Even though its fluffy I didnt feel that the Helix adept was worth the points. If the heal was on a 4 vs. the 5 itd be a different story.

[Karhedron]

Yea one seems to fill a nice sweet spot. I thought that i would be using them more as DS bubble wrap but the infiltrate is just too useful to not take advantage of. Even though its fluffy I didnt feel that the Helix adept was worth the points. If the heal was on a 4 vs. the 5 itd be a different story.

 

That is why I like Incursors. They have the same ability to get close to the enemy as Infiltrators but are cheaper and hit a bit harder in melee. Unless you need to mess with enemy coming in from Reserves, I would take Incursors every time. Especially as our trait turns exploding 6s in melee into exploding 5+s. 5 Incursors on the charge will average 17-18 S4 hits. Great chaff clearance.

[The Great Squark]

So, a rough run down of my thoughts on the new units;

 

Phobos Wolf Lords: Everybody hates hordes of tzaangors showing up in their deployment zone. Therefore, everybody loves phobos captains/masters/wolf lords. The Instigator is probably the ideal gun for him too, if he's not giving up his shots to buff shooting via one of the phobos warlord traits.

 

Phobos Battle Leader: The Incursor Battle Leader forgot how to infiltrate and has to arrive on turn 2. The Reiver Battle Leader forgot his drop chute and grapnel launcher at home, so he can't help his buddies either. Unless you're fielding a ton of Infiltrators with the comms arrays, skip.

 

Phobos Rune Priest: Cheaper than his regular primaris counterpart. Hell, he's cheaper than the regular rune priest if the latter takes a Psychic Hood. If you're not putting your rune Prriest in a drop pod/land raider or giving him a jump pack/bike, he should be in Phobos Armor. Concealed Positions is also hilarious with Fury of the Wolf Spirits and Honor the Chapter/Only in Death Does Duty End. He just needs incursors to screen him in case you go 2nd.

 

Infiltrators: Concealed Positions on a troops choice is fantastic, and their anti-reserves aura makes them even more attractive. You probably only need one unit, though. Comms Array seems okay if the unit is big enough, but the Helix Adept is awful.

 

Incursors: If only Hunters Unleashed worked with Paired Combat Knives. Still probably the best Primaris troops choice to take advantage of being space wolves.

 

Invictor Tactical warsuit: Eww... Hunters Unleashed is the perfect chapter tactic for these things. That being said, if you take one, take three. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with the threat of that super easy charge to touch the rest of your army.

 

Suppressors: Shutting off Overwatch is cute. If you envy Havoc's autocannons, we've found the Loyalist replacement.

 

Eliminators: A decent source of snipers, something we don't have a good source of. Long Fangs or Predators will probably outperform the las fusil, though.

 

Impulsor: There are two smace marine units who want to ride in these; Aggressors and Hellblasters. Aggressors can't, and Hellblasters really, really want to be from another chapter.

[The Great Squark]

 

 

 

Yea one seems to fill a nice sweet spot. I thought that i would be using them more as DS bubble wrap but the infiltrate is just too useful to not take advantage of. Even though its fluffy I didnt feel that the Helix adept was worth the points. If the heal was on a 4 vs. the 5 itd be a different story.

That is why I like Incursors. They have the same ability to get close to the enemy as Infiltrators but are cheaper and hit a bit harder in melee. Unless you need to mess with enemy coming in from Reserves, I would take Incursors every time. Especially as our trait turns exploding 6s in melee into exploding 5+s. 5 Incursors on the charge will average 17-18 S4 hits. Great chaff clearance.

Nope, Paired Combat blades only trigger on unmodified 6s. So re-rolls can help, but hunters unleashed doesn't.

[Wispy]

i don't know about a gameplay standpoint, but i found the Vanguard stuff to be very thematic to the Wolves. 

[Karhedron]

Nope, Paired Combat blades only trigger on unmodified 6s. So re-rolls can help, but hunters unleashed doesn't.

Darn, that is a bit annoying. I don't have the new SM dex yet as I play Wolves and BAs so I must have missed the fine print. The other points still stand but they are not quite such a great fit for Wolves as I thought.

[Guest Triszin]

Yea one seems to fill a nice sweet spot. I thought that i would be using them more as DS bubble wrap but the infiltrate is just too useful to not take advantage of. Even though its fluffy I didnt feel that the Helix adept was worth the points. If the heal was on a 4 vs. the 5 itd be a different story.

would you take a full pack of them and split, or is 5 the sweet spot

[Wolf Guard Dan]

If you’re gonna split then you may as well take two units of 5 for troop slots in your battalion. Maximize your CP production

[Jonas Stromclaw]

Help me with the logic behind Incursors' Paired Combat Blades. Any way I look at it, it doesn't seem to be any better than a straight up chainsword. Yes, exploding attacks gives you the theoretical 6 attacks per model on the charge (shock assault and rolling all 6s), but law of averages says you'll only be getting an extra .5 attack per model first turn, .333 repeating every turn after. Potentially devastating, actually mediocre. I'd rather have the straight +1 attack per model of a regular combat blade/chainsword.

[Wispy]

Help me with the logic behind Incursors' Paired Combat Blades. Any way I look at it, it doesn't seem to be any better than a straight up chainsword. Yes, exploding attacks gives you the theoretical 6 attacks per model on the charge (shock assault and rolling all 6s), but law of averages says you'll only be getting an extra .5 attack per model first turn, .333 repeating every turn after. Potentially devastating, actually mediocre. I'd rather have the straight +1 attack per model of a regular combat blade/chainsword.

well they can't take chainswords so mathhammering a comparison seems a rather moot point.

[TSkouboe]

I took some infiltrators to an event this weekend and they were really nice. I couldnt really reliably kill stuff but they were a really wonderful wrench unit that i messed up peoples deployments with. In cover it took some real doing for my opponents to remove them.

That's good to hear. I like their utility, but I was on the fence with them because they don't seem able to kill anything. Maybe they're worth it.

I think I'd prefer the cheaper Incursors, though, even if their guns are inferior. Also, the haywire mine seems fun to play with, so I'd want to try it.

 

Sniper Eliminators are also good for us, not so much because they work well with our special rules but simply because they fill a niche. We do not get regular Sniper Scouts so Sniper Eliminators fill that role nicely of taking out sneaky enemy characters who hide from glorious combat. Also they are a cheap Heavy unit which can be handy if you are looking to build a Brigade.

True and true.

I've wanted to get to annoying psykers and aura linchpins many times, and sniper scouts are just inefficient.

I've also tried building a Brigade a few times, and my heavy choices take up too many points. Eliminators are a good option.

 

Invictor Tactical warsuit: Eww... Hunters Unleashed is the perfect chapter tactic for these things. That being said, if you take one, take three. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with the threat of that super easy charge to touch the rest of your army.

The way I read it, the Invictor doesn't get Hunters Unleashed - only Infantry, biker, cavalry, and dreadnought units do, and the Invictor is neither. Sadly.

Still, I'm considering it anyway. I imagine they're fun, and I like how they can put pressure on the enemy from turn 1.

 

Darn, that is a bit annoying. I don't have the new SM dex yet as I play Wolves and BAs so I must have missed the fine print. The other points still stand but they are not quite such a great fit for Wolves as I thought.

You can find rules for our new units here:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/warhammer_40000_space_marines_summer_update_en.pdf

 

Help me with the logic behind Incursors' Paired Combat Blades. Any way I look at it, it doesn't seem to be any better than a straight up chainsword.

Yup, it's strictly worse. That's probably their intent.

 

In conclusion, I feel like we can use some of the new phobos units, but even those that fit us best gain nothing from being Space Wolves.

I'm particularly disappointed that the captain and lieutenants have no melee weapon options - although that would be difficult to balance with their concealed positions.

[ranulf the revenant]

Sooo... incursors make reivers even more irrelevant

[Guest]

Sooo... incursors make reivers even more irrelevant ?

Reivers do more damage in melee than incursors. Reivers combat blades always give +1 attack, while incursors only get +1 attack on a roll of 6. Them the reivers have better pistols, furthering their effectiveness in melee. 5 incursor are only 5 points less than 5 reivers (with knife and grav-chute). Reivers can also come in after your movement phase, aonif you are going 2nd increases their chance of survival.

[The Great Squark]

 

 

Invictor Tactical warsuit: Eww... Hunters Unleashed is the perfect chapter tactic for these things. That being said, if you take one, take three. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with the threat of that super easy charge to touch the rest of your army.

The way I read it, the Invictor doesn't get Hunters Unleashed - only Infantry, biker, cavalry, and dreadnought units do, and the Invictor is neither. Sadly.

Still, I'm considering it anyway. I imagine they're fun, and I like how they can put pressure on the enemy from turn 1.

Ah. Right. Based on the previews, they're supposed to benefit from chalter tactics, but GW hasn't adjusted our rules accordingly.

[PeteySödes]

 

Yea one seems to fill a nice sweet spot. I thought that i would be using them more as DS bubble wrap but the infiltrate is just too useful to not take advantage of. Even though its fluffy I didnt feel that the Helix adept was worth the points. If the heal was on a 4 vs. the 5 itd be a different story.

would you take a full pack of them and split, or is 5 the sweet spot

 

 

I felt like 5 in cover was enough. I only lost the unit in one game and it was to 5 turns of smites. They did their job. 

[TiguriusX]

That's good to hear. I like their utility, but I was on the fence with them because they don't seem able to kill anything. Maybe they're worth it.

I think I'd prefer the cheaper Incursors, though, even if their guns are inferior. Also, the haywire mine seems fun to play with, so I'd want to try it

Infiltrators are not in your list for killing. If that is your mindset they are being used incorrectly

 

They are board control and deep strike buffer. ideal job is hiding inside a building with no LOS and annoying your opponent

[PeteySödes]

 

That's good to hear. I like their utility, but I was on the fence with them because they don't seem able to kill anything. Maybe they're worth it.

I think I'd prefer the cheaper Incursors, though, even if their guns are inferior. Also, the haywire mine seems fun to play with, so I'd want to try it

Infiltrators are not in your list for killing. If that is your mindset they are being used incorrectly

 

They are board control and deep strike buffer. ideal job is hiding inside a building with no LOS and annoying your opponent

Exactly, I love using the 5 as bait even. In a recent game my opponent sent 30 gaunts at them and once committed I outflanked my WG at them and they help the flank and prevent my core from getting buried in bodies.

[TiguriusX]

just to clarify in case it is not obvious...

 

your opponent must commit significant resources to removing well placed infiltrators

 

deep strike wont work unless special rules are in effect

 

cant shoot them if LOS blocked

 

cant melee them because you drop outside 12"

 

that is a minimum 2 turn investment to remove a well placed infiltrator

 

alternatively they send mobile units like gene stealers and the rest of your army is saved

[TSkouboe]

Good points.

I'll try them out.

 

Again, though, it's a decent unit, but it gains nothing from being Space Wolves.

It seems to me that the more phobos and primaris units I want to use, the more I should find another chapter tactic. Shame.

[The Great Squark]

Good points.

I'll try them out.

 

Again, though, it's a decent unit, but it gains nothing from being Space Wolves.

It seems to me that the more phobos and primaris units I want to use, the more I should find another chapter tactic. Shame.

Unfortunately, yeah. Primaris Units are all shooting based units, and Hunters Unleashed doesn't really capture the Space Wolves' status as the midrange loyalist marines chapter. Perhaps Combat Doctorines might help, at least for non-soup Space Wolves?

 

The Phobos Librarian and Aggressors and are the only primaris units that really want to be in melee, and the former needs a concealed positions screen in case you go second.