Chapter Approved 2019 - Speculation

[SickSix]

I think flamer templates need to come back. I do not think torrent weapons need to come back. Those had the jankiest rules I have ever read.

 

Blast templates, I am not as fussed over. But things like demolished should not have such a low possible output of just one hit. 3+d3 or even X+D6 needs to be a thing.

[Ishagu]

so whats your answer ishagu?

 

 

I don't think there is a significant problem that needs to be dealt with by any drastic rule changes, and we have to get to the bottom of the complaints.

 

Castling is potent in certain missions and on certain kinds of tables. The most successful lists throughout 8th haven't really been aura driven castles, but instead things built around protected high damage units (Castellan surrounded by Gaurd), Eldar flyer spam, Smite spam, certain pressure lists (Orks/GSC), etc

Tau are the most successful of the static gunline builds, but will probably be usurped by Iron Hands. There is no question at all that some rule combinations need to be revised. Iron Hands can be fixed by taking Doctrine bonuses/stratagem support/certain keywords from relic units (look at how the Scorpius was reigned in), and by limiting the character Dreadnought ability to one unit per game. They'll still be the best chapter, arguably, but will no longer present multiple toxic unit combinations.

 

The desire to bring templates back probably stems from people wanting some weapons to be more devastating, or in response to things that might irk them in local metas, or perhaps because they want a more thematic game.

Some weapon profiles could do with adjustments, I agree. I don't think any particularly drastic changes are needed - the game is pretty devastating as is. Local meta issues are trickier to solve - it comes down to discussion with opponents, changing missions/terrain and potentially adjusting your list. Lastly, if you simply want a more thematic rule then by all means use it in local games with friends - open play exists and is open to customisation. Don't suggest things that increase the length of time this game takes - time is one of the hottest topics currently and a source for complaints, from myself included.

 

One thing to mention: GW have said often that CA is primarily there to adjust points, and not alter unit rules in any significant ways. I wouldn't put my hopes up on grand weapon rule shifts, although altered terrain rules are possible and a new set of missions is very likely.

 

If Iron Hands are reigned in, hopefully with the supplement FAQ, than the game will be in a pretty good position. Just a few other books left to update.

[Captain Idaho]

Castling and a game skewed towards shooting are a problem. If someone gets shot off the table turn 1, or can't do anything against the castle over a couple turns despite their best efforts and an army that is balanced or has assault elements, then they either go shooty or go home.

 

I don't agree there isn't a problem.

[MegaVolt87]

Castling and a game skewed towards shooting are a problem. If someone gets shot off the table turn 1, or can't do anything against the castle over a couple turns despite their best efforts and an army that is balanced or has assault elements, then they either go shooty or go home.

 

I don't agree there isn't a problem.

 

8th ed shooting rules would be perfect to adapt for Napolionis/historical games for lines of infantry shooting, its much the same. Would speed up historicals. 

[kombatwombat]

Ralph Wiggum voice: I’m [with] Idaho!

 

Castling is a largely non-interactive way of playing the game, so it ultimately detracts from the fun of a match. It should be a useable tactic, but it should also have effective and widely-available counters. At the moment, it doesn’t have any counters at all. Templates were an effective counter, and back when units couldn’t nonchalantly waltz out of combat, assault units stood half a chance against a castle.

 

I also agree shooting is too strong overall. I know it seems contradictory to say that shooting is too strong and then want to increase the power of template weapons, but really all that does is bring templates up to scratch with other weapons. That’s an ‘internal balance’ within shooting, and doesn’t massively change the ‘external balance’ of shooting vs assault.

 

Templates are more thematic. There’s no arguing that. People value that differently though, and I don’t see us ever changing each other’s opinion on it. You could argue they take a little longer - though once you add in rolling the random number of shots, deciding whether to CP reroll the result, rolling to hit, checking if you’re within the Captain’s aura and rerolling hits, maybe not - but the time difference isn’t enormous. Once again, though, I doubt either side is going to change the other’s opinion on whether a thematic improvement is worth some extra minutes added to a game’s length.

 

If you take the very subjective ‘theme vs time’ argument out of it, you’re left with slightly more objective arguments of advantages vs disadvantages of templates. The big advantages I see are horde control and castling counters, but I’m struggling to see many disadvantages.

[MegaVolt87]

Already mentioned, but the time sink from templates was not in working them out, but spacing + movement of units in the movement phase from how I remember. Always amuses me how we can solve new problems with older solutions, instead of modern problems require modern solution's. 

[kombatwombat]

Oh sure sometimes you had to space out your models to avoid templates, but for the most part that was done during deployment and thereafter you just moved your models in a broadly similar fashion to how you do now, perhaps with a handful minor adjustments if you were really anxious about templates. Nowadays you spend just as much time measuring every model is exactly 2” apart for screening, and making sure you haven’t left a 9” gap anywhere.

 

People arguing against templates love to make it seem like templates make the game last longer than the Roman Empire, when really you’re talking maybe an extra ten minutes over the course of a whole game. Tournaments typically allow 2.5-3 hours for a 2000pt game, which does not include setting up the board etc. Taking that as a yard stick for 2000pt games in general, I do struggle to see how a 3.25hr game is dramatically different from a 3hr game.

[sairence]

Taking that as a yard stick for 2000pt games in general, I do struggle to see how a 3.25hr game is dramatically different from a 3hr game.

In my experience, that's about the difference between getting in one more late game turn vs having to call it.

 

Templates had some very strange interactions that could really eat up time, both in your own shooting and your opponents movement. And not just in deployment.

 

Have you ever fired a Wyvern in 7th? It was one of the worst offenders. Let me talk you through it:

I have 4 small twinlinked barrage blasts with shred.

 

I pick my taeget point and roll my hit + scatter dice, carefully trying to get as many in that little radius as I could. Cue short debate about how many bases are clipped by the template. If I don't like it I reroll the scatter.

 

Then I pick my second little blast and my scatter dice. I get a scatter I flip it over, I get a direct hit I can place it anywhere on the original template as long as the hole in the centre is still full on it. Cue short debate over which bases are clipped by the new template. If I don't like it I reroll the scatter.

 

Now I do this twice more.

 

At the end cue another short debate about many models were actually hit after a templates had finally been worked out, which models were covered by more than one template, thus suffering multiple hits. then roll to wound with a potential reroll.

 

There was nothing fast about the process and it took ages to fully understand all the rules interactions at work there. And if my opponent was unaware of it before you can be sure that he'll now take extra care in his next movement phase to spread out his infantry as much as possible every turn and any following games. And this was for games with my friends, not competitive tournaments. Yes, this was one of the more extreme examples I'm aware of but dear gods.

 

Whereas in 8th...I pick up 4D6, roll my number of shots, decide if I want to reroll some of then depending on doctrine/CP, roll to hit, roll to wound, reroll to wound. Believe me, it's no comparison how much faster it is now. If templates never come back it'll be a blessing.

[Panzer]

Honestly, the issue with templates was less the time it took but rather that it was prone to disrupting the flow of the game.

[kombatwombat]

Yes, this was one of the more extreme examples I'm aware of but dear gods.

 

Whereas in 8th...I pick up 4D6, roll my number of shots, decide if I want to reroll some of then depending on doctrine/CP, roll to hit, roll to wound, reroll to wound. Believe me, it's no comparison how much faster it is now. If templates never come back it'll be a blessing.

The Wyvern’s far more than one of the more extreme examples though - its unequivocally the single worst example, it’s far worse than almost anything else in the game, and is totally non-representative of almost every single other template weapon. If Wyverns are a unit you like to use then I feel for you, but they’re just an isolated example of really poor rules design that doesn’t really affect templates as a whole.

 

There is a similar example in 30k if the Quad Mortar, and the community has developed a clover leaf template to use instead. It’s a better application of the template rules. The issue isn’t templates, it’s how GW handled that particular weapon.

 

Spreading out is mostly an issue when you set up a unit - after that you generally just keep the same spacing. You have to measure every model anyway. Even then, if it takes an extra second to measure each model, if you have 100 models in each your and your opponent’s army, you measure every single one of them every single turn, and nobody takes any casualties, you add 20 minutes to a 3hr game. That’s obviously wholly unrealistic - you do take casualties, you don’t move every model every turn, it’s generally very unlikely for there to be 200 models on the board, not all of your models will need spacing out and even the ones that do you won’t always space out. So realistically spacing out might add 5 minutes to the game. Might.

 

The actual firing of templates is faster than now for flamer weapons, and might add a few seconds for scattering blasts. Even if it adds 10 seconds on top of what we do now, even with a Guard army that puts out ten templates, and again takes no casualties, it adds ten minutes. In real conditions, a minute or two.

 

I know I’m not going to change your mind, but I do want to point out that the real time difference is very minor.

[Halandaar]

Templates caused issues in multiple phases. They slowed down deployment, slowed down movement, slowed down shooting, and involved a seemingly endless haggle between players over how many models were hit. They can stay consigned to the dumpster as far as I'm concerned; my games are more fun and less time consuming without them in the picture.

 

Bringing templates back isn't a solution, it's replacing one problem with another.

[CaptainMarsh]

I'd like to see Famers improved. Expensive for what it does especially as a random hit weapon. I don't think that'll change though.

[Ishagu]

My flamer Aggressors are pretty darn effective. Flamers need to be taken in higher numbers - the occasional flamer in a squad won't do much. 10D6 flamer auto-hits on the other hand are very powerful.

[Slasher956]

For flamers ... instead of bringing back templates how about allowing them to overwatch irrespective of distance & allowing them to re-roll the number of hits if under half range.

My flamer Aggressors are pretty darn effective. Flamers need to be taken in higher numbers - the occasional flamer in a squad won't do much. 10D6 flamer auto-hits on the other hand are very powerful.

 

aka I'm alright jack

 

everything is good in high numbers.... 5 stormbolters in a squad is good, doenst mean the weapon is just that I've a lot of dice.

[sairence]

 

I know I’m not going to change your mind, but I do want to point out that the real time difference is very minor.

I'm not going to address your specific time estimates here, because quite frankly that's about as subjective as it gets. It's great if your experience with them was so smooth, but from what I can tell plenty of people had more issues with them.

[G8Keeper]

I feel either increasing the number of shots or adding a bleed over onto nearby units would cover the effect templates had without the need to reintroduce them.  It's just balancing that change that would be the issue.

[Tyriks]

Templates also isn't just about time. They make the game a lot less enjoyable against some opponents. Games that used a lot of templates were nearly impossible to get through without some kind of argument. Even a minor argument detracts from the fun of a game, though. I play to have fun, not to win. It's not fun to argue about what gets hit, but it's also not fun to have someone fudge the scatter in their favor a little (especially when there's a lot of templates getting thrown around) so it's a lose-lose. It's just not worth it.

[Slasher956]

most peoples concerns about templates arent the template rules directly but rather the people playing the game and how they play it..... eg the 1% of a base is under the template they're hit...

 

This is possibly why I never really had(have) a problem with them... because in 3rd /4th & beginning of 5th there wernt masses of templates being used in the groups where I played.... 

& the games I play now that have templates its more for laughs (a good game is one where you spend more time laughing than worrying about rules!)

[Guest Triszin]

Templates should not come back, imho it slowed down the game in a variety of manners

[Slasher956]

...Circular argument is round......ie the last two pages on templates has gone no where..... :p

 

So back On Topic....

 

consolidation of my speculation on CA '19s contents....

 

Points Review

1st Batch of Legends data sheets (possibly only beta with the actual release being its own book next summer)

Printing of Beta rules from the last FAQ

An open play campaign rule set

Assassins WD

[Panzer]

...Circular argument is round......ie the last two pages on templates has gone no where.....

 

Well yeah as always. It's a subjective topic after all.

[Ishagu]

I often find some lore/theme driven people are adamant about changing the matched play rules, when narrative and open play is right there for them to mess around with.

[Ficinus]

The reason is that most lore/theme driven people do not have a solid gaming group around them. It's sort of hard to get someone you haven't played in five months to agree to a whole set of house rules you made up.

[Ishagu]

It's rubbish that dedicated hobbyists might not have a community of players within reach :-(

[kombatwombat]

One of the problems with the ‘just play Narrative’ argument is that a lot of people do a big part - or even most or all - of their gaming at events. That doesn’t necessarily mean competitive events mind you, there’s plenty of fun- and hobby-driven events. Generally they all use Matched Play rules, which is appropriate. That does mean, though, that making up house rules or different rules is dead in the water.

 

My closest gaming group do like to try out new rules from time to time, though we can’t always line up our schedules to be playing each other. We therefore do a lot of our non-event gaming at one of the local clubs. We’re friends with the people in those clubs, but there isn’t quite the same level of trust that’s needed to get someone to agree to ‘hey can we try this rule I made up?’. Non-Matched Play gaming does happen and is fun, but it makes up for single-digit percentages of our gaming, so ‘just play Narrative’ is not a solution.

 

That said, we did recently try the flamer-type weapon rule mooted in this or the weapons changes thread where flamers hit every model in the target unit within range, up to 10 hits. Worked like a charm! Really made them feel like flamethrowers and fixed a lot of their issues. The Knight Acheron would need a points increase, though.

 

Also, we do play 7th Ed a lot in my area - we have a really active 30k community. We even play with Xenos, using their 7th Ed rules, so we essentially play 7th Ed in everything but name. The only change is to ban Formations, which fixes just about everything wrong with 7th. The price point and semi-historical nature of 30k attracts a different kind of gamer - a generally older, more mature and experienced gamer. I would think that this is why we have no arguments over templates or scatter, as the older gamers have long learned that a fun gaming experience is better than winning the game. Even before 8th Ed dropped, though, the broader community in my area never had an issue with arguing over templates. I can only think that it’s a cultural thing.

 

It gets very frustrating when you play both 30k/7th and 8th regularly and see the comparison between the two. If only we could take 7th Ed, remove formations, and bring in the Movement Stat, streamlined Wounds (i.e. no Hull Points), Ap modifier system and multi-damage weapons from 8th Ed, we would be in gaming Nirvana. We have all the tools for greatness, but they’re split between two editions. God damn it’s frustrating.