Iron Hands Bikes, Devastator Doctrine all the way or not?

brÖtherIrön · October 16, 2019

I optimised my "Turn 2 Champs"-List. I think, Hands can get more mobile and need some distraction and make Chaplains work turn 1, "everything" works turn 1.

Toughness 8 Sicaran, 2+/3++ Bikes for 2 CP and two units ignoring this -1 to hit. I do not spam units, since it is always harder to take care of your unkillable sheeps without our shepherd Feirros.

I personally would go turn 1 or 2 for the Calculated Fury and from turn 2 or 3 to tactical. Hear me out, buffing infantry/bikes with psysteel armor or chaplains is a bit seldomly used. I really favor +1 to hit instead +1 to wound with Chaplain. In tactical doctrine I would have pseudo heavy bolters. Heavy Bolters often were good working weapons. Be it aginst e.g. quantom shields or the mirror match against hands. "Mercy is Weakness" is so good on so many targets. So my question is, why dont we think about going down to tactical doctrine at some point? I do not want to be outplayed by other factions, how do you stay mobile to play the mission? Here is my list:

+ No Force Org Slot [13 CP] +

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [53 PL, -4CP, 965pts] ++

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

Relics of the Chapter (1 Relic)[-1CP]

Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter [-1CP]

Stratagem: March of the Ancients [-1CP]

Stratagem: Chapter Master [-2CP]

+ HQ [11 PL, -3CP, 247pts] +

Chaplain [5 PL, -1CP, 99pts]: Canticle of Hate, Stratagem: Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: The Ironstone, Jump Pack [1 PL, 18pts], Recitation of Focus, Power fist [9pts]

Chapter Master [6 PL, -2CP, 148pts]: Combi-melta [15pts], Jump Pack [1 PL, 19pts], Thunder hammer [40pts](Master-Crafted Weapon), Stratagem: Chapter Master [-2CP], Student of History, Warlord

+ Troops [12 PL, 177pts] +

Scout Squad [4 PL, 67pts]

. Scout Sergeant [13pts]: Chainsword, Storm bolter [2pts]

. 3x Scout w/Boltgun [33pts]

. Scout w/Heavy Weapon [21pts]: Heavy bolter [10pts]

Tactical Squad [4 PL, 80pts]

. 3x Space Marine [36pts]

. Space Marine Sergeant [12pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [32pts]: Missile launcher [20pts]

Tactical Squad [4 PL, 80pts]

. 3x Space Marine [36pts]

. Space Marine Sergeant [12pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [32pts]: Missile launcher [20pts]

+ Elites [20 PL, 317pts] +

Contemptor Dreadnought [6 PL, -2 CP, 132pts]: Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter [-1CP] All Flesh is Weak, Stratagem: March of the Ancients [-1CP], Combi-bolter [2pts], Dreadnought combat weapon [20pts], Kheres pattern assault cannon [22pts]

Relic Sicaran Battle Tank [14 PL, 185pts]: Heavy bolter [10pts]

. Two heavy bolters [20pts]: 2x Heavy bolter [20pts]

+ Fast Attack [16 PL, 312pts] +

Bike Squad [9 PL, 195pts]

. Attack Bike [37pts]: Heavy bolter [10pts], Twin boltgun [2pts]

. Biker Sergeant [38pts]: Combi-melta [15pts], Twin boltgun [2pts]

. 2x Space Marine Biker w/Chainsword [46pts]: 2x Twin boltgun [4pts]

. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon [37pts]: Meltagun [14pts], Twin boltgun [2pts]

Scout Bike Squad [7 PL, 117pts]

. 4x Scout Biker [92pts]: 4x Twin boltgun [8pts]

. Scout Biker Sergeant [25pts]: Storm bolter [2pts], Twin boltgun [2pts]

+ Dedicated Transport [10 PL, 174pts] +

Razorback [5 PL, 87pts]: Twin heavy bolter [17pts]

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [56 PL, 1,035pts] ++

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

+ HQ [12 PL, 262pts] +

Librarian [6 PL, 131pts]: 1) Psysteel Armor, 2) Might of Heroes, Combi-melta [15pts], Force sword [8pts], Jump Pack [1 PL, 28pts]

Librarian [6 PL, 131pts]: 1) Blessing of the Machine God, 2) Reforge, Combi-melta [15pts], Force sword [8pts], Jump Pack [1 PL, 28pts]

+ Troops [12 PL, 243pts] +

Scout Squad [4 PL, 57pts]

. Scout Sergeant [13pts]: Chainsword, Storm bolter [2pts]

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

Tactical Squad [4 PL, 93pts]

. 3x Space Marine [36pts]

. Space Marine Sergeant [31pts]: Combi-melta [15pts], Power maul [4pts]

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon [26pts]: Meltagun [14pts]

Tactical Squad [4 PL, 93pts]

. 3x Space Marine [36pts]

. Space Marine Sergeant [31pts]: Combi-melta [15pts], Power maul [4pts]

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon [26pts]: Meltagun [14pts]

+ Elites [12 PL, 145pts] +

Sternguard Veteran Squad [12 PL, 145pts]

. Space Marine Veteran [14pts]: Special issue boltgun

. Veteran Sergeant [19pts]: Power axe [5pts], Special issue boltgun

+ Dedicated Transport [3 PL, 67pts] +

Rhino [3 PL, 67pts]: Storm bolter [2pts]

++ Total: [109 PL, -5CP, 1,999pts] ++

tychobi · October 17, 2019

Why would you bring anything other than heavy weapons? Just curious. The sternguard n tac n such are ok and benefit from tactical doc. But nothing else does. Feels like either you are shoehorning stuff due to collection restraints or looking for a reason to not be in dev doctrine.

brÖtherIrön · October 17, 2019

Why would you bring anything other than heavy weapons? Just curious. The sternguard n tac n such are ok and benefit from tactical doc. But nothing else does. Feels like either you are shoehorning stuff due to collection restraints or looking for a reason to not be in dev doctrine.

Honestly, I do not know how Iron Hands will fair point- and ruleswise. I do not put everything in one basket. The rules as they make turn 1 and 2 smoother, after that I can think what is still alive and I like to redeploy or react to the current mission. I feel that mass-armies still were a problem. I saw many bad Iron Hands who castle up and I do not want that. If you point out "you could play more AttackBikes (which you have to keep alive) or Flyers (which I suspect will get a nerf-bat at some point). Let me put it this way: the thunderhammer is the only item which got more expensive the rest got cheaper all the time and I like to play things which are good to great but not OP and therefore invalidated due to points/rules at a further point of time.

TrawlingCleaner · October 17, 2019

This is definitely a marine list, maybe not so much an IH list. With the amount of normal bolters, special issue etc, you've got enough Anti-horde but not much anti-tank. More heavy weapons is ideal IMO, especially AT. You're taking the Iron Stone which really forces your vehicles to cluster to use properly or castling. I'm pretty sure you also can't split which psychic table you pick from too, i.e only IH table or only codex table

brÖtherIrön · October 17, 2019

This is definitely a marine list, maybe not so much an IH list. With the amount of normal bolters, special issue etc, you've got enough Anti-horde but not much anti-tank. More heavy weapons is ideal IMO, especially AT. You're taking the Iron Stone which really forces your vehicles to cluster to use properly or castling. I'm pretty sure you also can't split which psychic table you pick from too, i.e only IH table or only codex table

About the Psychic Splitting, can you tell me by reference where I could NOT do it. Last Saturday I attended a tournament and no one bat an eye about it. I am honestly curious. I have lots of Meltas, Contemptor and a S10 D4 Smash Captain. I can deal with Vehicles oh and 2 Missile Launchers. 1 argument would be Necrons, where to high damage is not beneficial. Another thing is, withering down by numbers is also valid against 2++/3++ or 4++ Custodes or -1 to hit, although I could negate it with two units (Chaplain and Blessing of the Machine God). I will never say a Lascannon and all its variants is bad. But to kill e.g. a Knight in one or two turns from a safe distance often brings too many drawbacks from MY experience. Actually a Sicaran is 14" Movement and my StoneBearer is a 12" JumpPack Unit. My Contemptor can walk its 9" and is with a 5+++ a great linebreaker or charger. I do not care about my Rhino, Turn 1 or 2 pop a smoke, if my Razorbacks are protected is dependend on ruins/battlefield layout or if I have to split because reasons. That is MY personal reason not to limit the Iron Stone to 1 Unit but even with that I could survive with Stone on Sicaran and Half damage on my Contemptor with its 5+++ AND Cogitated Martyrdom. My list also uses by its list design a rather subtle Iron Hands approach but when I play, I use every strategem the the C:SM book or the IH Supplement provides and this supplement provides a lot usefull tools like in the Ultra Supplement.

MeltaRange · October 17, 2019

This is definitely a marine list, maybe not so much an IH list. With the amount of normal bolters, special issue etc, you've got enough Anti-horde but not much anti-tank. More heavy weapons is ideal IMO, especially AT. You're taking the Iron Stone which really forces your vehicles to cluster to use properly or castling. I'm pretty sure you also can't split which psychic table you pick from too, i.e only IH table or only codex table

About the Psychic Splitting, can you tell me by reference where I could NOT do it. Last Saturday I attended a tournament and no one bat an eye about it. I am honestly curious.

Read the top of the page under TECHNOMANCY DISCIPLINE.

brÖtherIrön · October 17, 2019

This is definitely a marine list, maybe not so much an IH list. With the amount of normal bolters, special issue etc, you've got enough Anti-horde but not much anti-tank. More heavy weapons is ideal IMO, especially AT. You're taking the Iron Stone which really forces your vehicles to cluster to use properly or castling. I'm pretty sure you also can't split which psychic table you pick from too, i.e only IH table or only codex table

About the Psychic Splitting, can you tell me by reference where I could NOT do it. Last Saturday I attended a tournament and no one bat an eye about it. I am honestly curious.

Read the top of the page under TECHNOMANCY DISCIPLINE.

I could argue that I am missing the wording "in addtion", to say, you know Librarus AND Technomancy but there is also some hint that you can choose 1 or 2 from Libraris or just both, this means "instead" in this sense, from Technomancy. I am prepared for both outcomes. Intuitively I would agree with you. I like to see the commitment, either (Null Zone+Might) or IH-goodstuff.

Edited October 17, 2019 by brÖtherIrön

MeltaRange · October 17, 2019

I'm not sure there's room for interpretation there.

Librarian models in an Iron Hands detachment can know ALL of their psychic powers from the Technomancy discipline instead of the Librarius or Obscuration disciplines...

brÖtherIrön · October 17, 2019

I'm not sure there's room for interpretation there.

Librarian models in an Iron Hands detachment can know ALL of their psychic powers from the Technomancy discipline instead of the Librarius or Obscuration disciplines...

A good reason to play Objuration Mechanicum now I guess.

MeltaRange · October 17, 2019

On a positive note, I'm 99% sure you can mix disciplines by using the Tome of Malcador relic, due to it's wording.

brÖtherIrön · October 17, 2019

On a positive note, I'm 99% sure you can mix disciplines by using the Tome of Malcador relic, due to it's wording.

Thanks for that!

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