Psychic Awakening 2 Chaos factions

[Filkarion]

I am probably happy because I haven't read the new SM codex... and from what I see I do not want to

[Lord_Starscream]

 

 

If the next major chaos space marines release is the same I might join your camp. But I really doubt they are not going to hit a home run with the new CSM dex and supplements. Chaos is the main enemy of 8th. It would be silly for them to not update the line and rules once they are finished with the Space Marines re-vamp.

 

For far too long CSM fans have been told to "wait for the next supplement", "wait for the next campaign book", "wait for the next codex". No more. If GW cared about addressing these issues they'd release updated Legion traits & some kind of mono-CSM doctrine system in an errata to hold the ship steady until our next major book. Fans have been asking for traits to be addressed for quite some time, and we saw identical comments surrounding the Vigilus release(s) earlier this year. GW is happy enough to make a big show of listening to the fans when it suits them, and the tide of sentiment is overwhelmingly negative here.

 

We've been the arch-enemy since 40k's inception. 8th has marked the beginning of a new golden age in model releases for us, but the disparity between us and loyalists has, as of this moment in time, never been greater. I'm not too pleased that I have to pay for another book (with CA19 less than a month away) that doesn't fix issues GW have known about for quite some time.

 

With the utmost respect: what exactly have they done to earn your trust? Serious question. I trust that GW will continue to give us amazing models from time to time, but in terms of rules, this latest update really is just par for the course in the post-2007/4th ed era.

 

 

Don't buy it.

 

I've already decided as of today, that there is no reason for that book to go on my shelf. It has no purpose. If I play, I'll just play my Orks for the moment :|

[Excessus]

Remember that:

 

#1: This supplement was never going to close the disparity between C:SM & C:CSM, we'll need an actual codex for that.

 

#2: These snippets are just a taste of what is to come, it's not a complete list by any means of what is in the campaign book.

 

#3: We haven't been top tier since 3.5, so most of us should be used to it now (I know I am).

 

#4: A new codex will not be coming for some time, since they are tacking on all these add-ons to the current one.

[Marshal Loss]

Couldn't put it better (edit: was replying to Wayniac). It's doubly frustrating because this is the age of digital releases, yearly CA volumes, and rapid fixes being fired off to solve major issues (or at least tone them down, e.g. Codex: Iron Hands). Even some beta rules for us to play around with in non-competitive environments that get made official in 6-12 months would be great. It would show they were at least listening and aware of what is going on. If we're going to get some major fixes in CA19, tell us in advance. Let us know that you are aware of the issues and care about fixing them. A little bit of self-awareness would go a long way to earning some good-will.

[Lord_Starscream]

Remember that:

 

#1: This supplement was never going to close the disparity between C:SM & C:CSM, we'll need an actual codex for that.

 

#2: These snippets are just a taste of what is to come, it's not a complete list by any means of what is in the campaign book.

 

#3: We haven't been top tier since 3.5, so most of us should be used to it now (I know I am).

 

#4: A new codex will not be coming for some time, since they are tacking on all these add-ons to the current one.

 

Yea, there is not being top tier, and then there is being Grey Knight tier.

 

We're Grey Knight tier, and it's only going to get worse.

[Wayniac]

Remember that:

 

#1: This supplement was never going to close the disparity between C:SM & C:CSM, we'll need an actual codex for that.

 

#2: These snippets are just a taste of what is to come, it's not a complete list by any means of what is in the campaign book.

 

#3: We haven't been top tier since 3.5, so most of us should be used to it now (I know I am).

 

#4: A new codex will not be coming for some time, since they are tacking on all these add-ons to the current one.

Sadly right, although I think on point #2 we've seen enough to get an idea of what the book is (or isn't) for us, and it's not looking pretty.

[Lord_Starscream]

Couldn't put it better. It's doubly frustrating because this is the age of digital releases, yearly CA volumes, and rapid fixes being fired off to solve major issues (or at least tone them down, e.g. Codex: Iron Hands). Even some beta rules for us to play around with in non-competitive environments that get made official in 6-12 months would be great. It would show they were at least listening and aware of what is going on. If we're going to get some major fixes in CA19, tell us in advance. Let us know that you are aware of the issues and care about fixing them. A little bit of self-awareness would go a long way to earning some good-will.

 

They're not going to fix what we perceive is wrong with the army. That's just how it is. They don't think our 'vision' of Chaos Space Marines is their vision. They do have an idea of what they want.

 

The Chaos Marines as they are now, are working as intended. You want better units? Get more Daemon Engines, monsters, ect. They're trying to not make Chaos Marines as bad as they currently are, but they don't want them sizing up with Primaris Marines. The problem is, Marine armies are meant to be, well, marines. This won't change. This won't get better. It's a bad taste to be left in one's mouth, unfortunately.

 

They want Chaos players to want something different than what they want. Which is why, all of their fixes for anything CSM related, will come from new model releases, and those new models will not address the problem. Only once the faction is left so mauled that Necrons are popular by comparison, will they do a deep dive and salvage operation on it.

[Wayniac]

I don't think they know what they want either.  If they do they've never seemed to convey it.  They talk on one hand about the traitor legions and the Heresy, and yet in the rules you want what are basically Lost & the Damned:  Minimal marines with mostly cultists and daemons.  If that's what they want and how they see Chaos, then they can't properly have Traitor Legions since at least 3 of them don't often dabble with daemons (Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion), and if that's how they see Chaos then it would make more sense for each Chaos Marine to be close to Primaris (if not better still) so they really do feel like the cruel masters of a traitorous rabble and you want a handful, rather than a core.

 

We get none of that.

[Lord_Starscream]

I don't think they know what they want either.  If they do they've never seemed to convey it.  They talk on one hand about the traitor legions and the Heresy, and yet in the rules you want what are basically Lost & the Damned:  Minimal marines with mostly cultists and daemons.  If that's what they want and how they see Chaos, then they can't properly have Traitor Legions since at least 3 of them don't often dabble with daemons (Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion), and if that's how they see Chaos then it would make more sense for each Chaos Marine to be close to Primaris (if not better still) so they really do feel like the cruel masters of a traitorous rabble and you want a handful, rather than a core.

 

We get none of that.

 

Can't make them Primaris level tho, as they don't want that to be what they are. They want Primaris Marines to be the strong bois (that doesn't mean best army, it means best "overall" infantry), which means Chaos Marines can't advance.

It's a total mess.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

But Chaos Space Marines ARE a new kit. And they could be brought up to the level of Loyalist non-Primaris marines just fine without stepping on the toes of the Primaris.

[Lord_Starscream]

But Chaos Space Marines ARE a new kit. And they could be brought up to the level of Loyalist non-Primaris marines just fine without stepping on the toes of the Primaris.

 

Regular marines don't really see use anymore, at least from what I've seen. Bringing them up to that level wouldn't help much either, as they share a lot of the same problems in a post-Primaris 30-36 inch range, 2w per model world.

[Aothaine]

 

With the utmost respect: what exactly have they done to earn your trust? Serious question. I trust that GW will continue to give us amazing models from time to time, but in terms of rules, this latest update really is just par for the course in the post-2007/4th ed era.

 

I really do understand everyone's sentiments. I really do. Let me try to explain why I trust GW so much right now. It is based off my personal experience and from what I've seen from GW over the past few years. 

 

So, back in 2017, GW officially announced that they would no longer be balancing the rules and that they were just a model company going forward. This obviously did not fly and that CEO was removed quickly. 8th launches along with an all new form of communication from GW. They create a community team that specializes in providing us with what news they can, they are working with their Black Library authors more to develop a narrative that flows into the on-going campaigns that are being presented to use through the game and they are also updating the rules of the game and trying to balance as much as possible without giving away too much of what will be changing in the future. They are applying big game changes slowly through beta rules to see how they work and are paying attention to feedback from the fan base and trying to make changes quickly on new releases.

 

I understand that CSM players are very frustrated with the mini-update at the cost of a full codex they got in summer of 2018. If I had bought the codex I think I would have been equally upset. I honestly would have advised GW to post that update through a pdf/faq like they did the august update for space marines. From what I can tell it was just points updates and a few unit changes, the biggest being the Havocs. Very frustrating.

 

It seems to be, based off the release schedule, that GW was planning on doing micro changes to the game until someone made them realize bigger changes were required to make the game more enjoyable and explosive. When this change happened I think the CSM mini-update had already been sent to the printers and instead of eating the loss they decided to release it. A questionable decision imho. With this new idea of what 40k could be they started working on their flagship army, space marines. They changed the codex layout to be generic codex + specific supplements and are working through their primary release right now. It seems to me there are still quite a few missing roles for the primaris line and we will continue to see new primaris lines get released throughout the next two years most likely. But, during this time I strongly believe that all of the other factions are going to be getting similar releases. 

 

I feel that the way that GW releases their content is a burden and a boon. It is a burden because players of every faction need to deal with power creep. But it is a boon because, usually, when your dex is released you are top dog for a little while. Now, balancing comes into play as well. Balancing this many factions is difficult. I mean... look at Star Craft for a good example. They have three factions and they have to balance almost every month. But they also have TONS more data to build off of to ensure those balancing actions are what is needed. Where 40k may have 10-60 games to work with on how to balance a specific unit. It makes balancing a lot more difficult. I commend GW for even bothering to try and balance the game for competitive play at all. It is a huge task that requires massive resources. Before you respond that you send in your results, keep in mind that there are people that would send in false reports just to mess stuff up. This means that they can only rely on a trusted testers. 

 

GW has apparently started to open up a bit and use beta testers in the community. But even they are missing things. Look at the Iron Hands release. People really missed or hid some things in that supplement. Again, is all comes down to testing and sample size of the tests. Then you have the fact that this hobby is not cheap by any means. Which further restricts the testing that can be done. So saying that a change needs to be made because some people have had a bad experience in a game decided by change might not be the best approach. There is so much that goes into balancing this game that it is insane. You balance for one unit and through doing so you can break the unit entirely. A balance of CSM vs. SM could be good for that match up but entirely break the CSM v Tyranids match up. This is what I'm getting at here. Balancing is a difficult process. GW has been doing an outstanding job with their community out reach and balancing so far. They are doing what they can with limited resources.

 

Now, before I get flamed to the depths of Khorne's Blood Ocean, I want to say that I in no way want the CSM to be under dogs. I want them to be as powerful, deadly and scary as they are in the books. I trust that GW knows that this is important for their game going forward as well. I trust that GW knows that it will be good for the company financially. But I know that getting this right takes time. Sadly, I am impatient. I think most people are in this era. 

 

Anyway, this is why I still trust GW. I hope that answers your question. I'm not trying to convince anyone here to change their minds. Your thoughts are based off of your own experiences and that is awesome! But you wanted to know why I trust GW and this is why.

[Lord_Starscream]

 

snip

 

 

But you're ignoring something important. Primaris are Primaris, and Chaos Space Marines are just Space Marines.

 

Even if CSM got this crazy big update, it's not going to change the lot in life of the average marine, and their range on the battlefield. Just watch. Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Space Marines are going to be the true kings of the battlefield for years.

[Iron_Within]

What bothers me is there insistence that the narrative that they were creating and wanting to have on the table top was Chaos in ascendancy. 

With the rules as is, that is complete and utter tosh. 

We're a goddam Saturday morning cartoon that the good guys can beat unless GW writers have us win in their campaign books. 

[Marshal Loss]

Again, with respect, that isn't so much a list of reasons to trust GW as it is a "these are the reasons I think they do what they do" list. Some examples are also completely erroneous - there was no such 2017 announcement, and we know e.g that playtesters warned GW about the Iron Hands/Codex SM stuff and they proceeded ahead anyway. If they are prepared to fire off a rapid fix in response to that disaster, why not give us some beta rules? Why not make a WHC post saying that they are working on a free-errata for CSM that can be expected in (x) time?

 

I've got some other minor points here:

 

This boils down to several simple but key points:

1. CSM players are constantly being forced to pay for new content to stay updated, arguably beyond any other faction
2. GW are not our friends. The community team allows GW to centralize news, increases their marketing ability, and capitalize off leaks. It allows them to shape the narrative. They may release more regular content but there is no genuine dialogue between the community & the team; this latest fiasco is a prime example of that.
3. CSM have suffered from the "last/first codex of the edition" thing 3 times now. Each time it has caused major issues.

Balancing can be difficult. That much is true. But some issues are easily predictable. Did it occur to GW when developing codex SM that their new book made an ordinary marine with a bolter significantly better than an ordinary chaos marine with a bolter? If not, why on earth not? Etc, etc, etc. The list goes on.

 

But here is the trump card: they put a full Black Templars supplement in the same book as these Legion updates. So no, they did not write CSM rules ages ago and we just got unlucky with the release schedule: they happily decided to put these rules in a book alongside the new 2.0 style SM rules without addressing any of the major issues that were so obvious from the beginning. 2-3 pages more rules, giving us updated traits & some kind of mono-CSM doctrine, and all would be well (or at least acceptable for the next few years). But no. The inclusion of daemon weapons for all CSM factions means this isn't even a release you can ignore if you don't play one of those 6 Legions. They looked at PA2, saw the disparity between the two factions, and decided that was okay. They decided it was okay to charge us for a borderline mandatory purchase that solved none of the issues they were already aware of.

 

Maybe CA19 will include the 2-3 pages more rules that I'm looking for - not a fundamental fix, I accept that we need to wait for another codex for that, but something to hold us by, but nothing in GW's past behaviour gives me any reason for faith.

 

Ultimately this is going to boil down to perspective, Aothaine, but I think you are being far, far too generous reading between the lines here. Will have to agree to disagree.

[Wayniac]

 

But here is the trump card: they put a full Black Templars supplement in the same book as these Legion updates. So no, they did not write CSM rules ages ago and we just got unlucky with the release schedule: they happily decided to put these rules in a book alongside the new 2.0 style SM rules without addressing any of the major issues that were so obvious from the beginning. 2-3 pages more rules, giving us updated traits & some kind of mono-CSM doctrine, and all would be well (or at least acceptable for the next few years). But no. The inclusion of daemon weapons for all CSM factions means this isn't even a release you can ignore if you don't play one of those 6 Legions. They looked at PA2, saw the disparity between the two factions, and decided that was okay. They decided it was okay to charge us for a borderline mandatory purchase that solved none of the issues they were already aware of.

I think this is a big point.  This wasn't some oh bad luck.  They put a 2.0 update in the same book as they barely gave CSM a token update, and what we got barely touches any of the issues with the army.  It's on purpose.

[Iron_Within]

There are two ways to voice our annoyance.0

1) Email GW - which 99/100 they ignore unless bombarded by groups of people (see: Haarkon)

2) Do Not Buy. 

 

I will be having a look at reviews once it's fully past the pre-order stage and then will be doing 1 and 2 based upon current knowledge. I would suggest those feeling angry do the same.

 

Last few things.

 

Back in the Kirby days (and before playtesting was anywhere near what it is now), GW deliberately undercosted their units. This was not the Dev teams decision, this was the sales teams decision. The big example was the Wraithknight, remember when it was stupid good and blatantly undercosted? That was because it was designed with the rules it had it was supposed to be double the price. This is first hand from a former Dev (who no, I'm not saying publicly) who was rather salty about this as they got the blame.

I do not think the Dev team nor the sales team do this anymore, they do entirely new stupid things.

Regarding the Iron Hands (which lets keep this as close to the main topic as possible). That could been back to the bad old days of them blatantly overpowering/undercosting them. I don't think that is the case and I don't think it is here. Rather they inadvertently overpowered them then ignored their testers. I used to do testing for accounting software, and it would drive me crazy when they didn't fix the errors they left in which caused "hilarious" PR issues (which is to say it was a fricking nightmare). These always happened due to lack of resources given, unrealistic release schedules leaving not enough time to fix things so they shipped a shoddy product and hoped for the best.

I would like to think that's that GW have done in the past post Kirby.

However, we know that GW is still miniatures over rules driven. The simple reason why the GW Dev team have had more time and more resources put towards Space Marines is they've had all the new miniatures coming out justifying them. They didn't just have two or three new models, they've had a whole new range coming out which justifies the SM 2.0 codex time investment.

So I'd like to give the Dev team the benefit of the doubt that they've not had the time resources to get the changes done we want or been able to get the changes signed off they wanted to. Afterall. No miniatures.

But then....

Haarkon Worldclaimer.

He is a beautiful model, I want one, but would never buy one because I see no reason. He has appalling rules that they tried to make worse. But the backlash happened.

So... I have no idea what they're thinking.

[Lord_Starscream]

https://youtu.be/O03WLn8SzaE?t=128

 

 

There are two ways to voice our annoyance.0

1) Email GW - which 99/100 they ignore unless bombarded by groups of people (see: Haarkon)

2) Do Not Buy. 

 

I will be having a look at reviews once it's fully past the pre-order stage and then will be doing 1 and 2 based upon current knowledge. I would suggest those feeling angry do the same.

 

Last few things.

 

Back in the Kirby days (and before playtesting was anywhere near what it is now), GW deliberately undercosted their units. This was not the Dev teams decision, this was the sales teams decision. The big example was the Wraithknight, remember when it was stupid good and blatantly undercosted? That was because it was designed with the rules it had it was supposed to be double the price. This is first hand from a former Dev (who no, I'm not saying publicly) who was rather salty about this as they got the blame.

I do not think the Dev team nor the sales team do this anymore, they do entirely new stupid things.

Regarding the Iron Hands (which lets keep this as close to the main topic as possible). That could been back to the bad old days of them blatantly overpowering/undercosting them. I don't think that is the case and I don't think it is here. Rather they inadvertently overpowered them then ignored their testers. I used to do testing for accounting software, and it would drive me crazy when they didn't fix the errors they left in which caused "hilarious" PR issues (which is to say it was a fricking nightmare). These always happened due to lack of resources given, unrealistic release schedules leaving not enough time to fix things so they shipped a shoddy product and hoped for the best.

I would like to think that's that GW have done in the past post Kirby.

However, we know that GW is still miniatures over rules driven. The simple reason why the GW Dev team have had more time and more resources put towards Space Marines is they've had all the new miniatures coming out justifying them. They didn't just have two or three new models, they've had a whole new range coming out which justifies the SM 2.0 codex time investment.

So I'd like to give the Dev team the benefit of the doubt that they've not had the time resources to get the changes done we want or been able to get the changes signed off they wanted to. Afterall. No miniatures.

But then....

Haarkon Worldclaimer.

He is a beautiful model, I want one, but would never buy one because I see no reason. He has appalling rules that they tried to make worse. But the backlash happened.

So... I have no idea what they're thinking.

 

I am in the not buy camp. I may even e-mail games-workshop as well, something I very rarely do. It's really ridiculous. 

[Sersi]

 

 

 

If the next major chaos space marines release is the same I might join your camp. But I really doubt they are not going to hit a home run with the new CSM dex and supplements. Chaos is the main enemy of 8th. It would be silly for them to not update the line and rules once they are finished with the Space Marines re-vamp.

 

For far too long CSM fans have been told to "wait for the next supplement", "wait for the next campaign book", "wait for the next codex". No more. If GW cared about addressing these issues they'd release updated Legion traits & some kind of mono-CSM doctrine system in an errata to hold the ship steady until our next major book. Fans have been asking for traits to be addressed for quite some time, and we saw identical comments surrounding the Vigilus release(s) earlier this year. GW is happy enough to make a big show of listening to the fans when it suits them, and the tide of sentiment is overwhelmingly negative here.

 

We've been the arch-enemy since 40k's inception. 8th has marked the beginning of a new golden age in model releases for us, but the disparity between us and loyalists has, as of this moment in time, never been greater.

 

With the utmost respect: what exactly have they done to earn your trust? Serious question.

 

I mean pretty much this.  Ever since 4th edition (the end of the 3.5 golden age) it's been "wait until the next book", "chaos is due for an update", "wait until the next supplement".  At what point do you stop accepting next time?  I really really hate to use the analogy but I can't think of anything else:  It's like a domestic abuse case where you keep falling for "next time" over and over again even as you keep getting punched in the face.

 

When does "it'll be better next time" stop becoming an excuse??

 

 

Exactly. Lets not forget Chaos being skipped two whole editions, twice!  While Codex Marines got a second codex more than once per edition. Remember the 7th Edition? You know the one where we had to wait 18 months after C:SM got their OP Gladdius detachment to get our under-powered Traitor Legions book. Only to have it may obsoleted by the 8th Edition in a mere 6 months! How much worse it is Chaos in the 8th Editions. No matter what they rules give us, you can be sure that either the Imperium or Eldar have a better version of it.

[BrainFireBob]

This article was so laughably phoned in I’m not even mad about it anymore. They mashed all the legions into one page, showing some depressingly mediocre content and then pretending like the book will change our lives.

 

Just look at that iron warriors warlord trait... just pathetic.

Could view it that way. Could view it as an improvement on the Dev battery. I am.

[Scourged]

There is... a lot of anger in here today. Some of it feels a bit justified, but most... is a bit overreactionary, folks. Can't say I'm a fan of it all. For the first 7-8 pages of this thread, things have stayed calm and level-headed, rational with some fun wishlisting. It's been nice - it's that kind of conversation and mentality that makes this my favorite place to visit for CSM discussion. But wow... after today's preview, this place is becoming a salt mine... I come here because it's a sanctuary from other online forums, not because it's the same as them.

 

Honestly, who thought PA was going to fix anything? What would have given any of us that impression? Looking at what PA1 provided the Aeldari, it was very clear what PA isn't - a fix to all non-SM books. We won't be fixed until we get a proper "new" codex. And that is a long, long time away - just like for every other non-SM and non-SoB army that exists right now. And there's nothing we can do about it except wait... like every other non-SM codex and non-SoB out there currently. PA is not a fix, or a patch, or a rework, or redesign, or an upgrade for any faction. It's bonus, DLC content. Expecting anymore more than what we are getting is honestly kinda greedy. Take a step back and think... did the Aeldari get the same level of content? Will the Tyranids and Orks and Necrons get this much attention? I mean, really... does anyone think that the Dark Angels will fare any better out of this than we will? Does anyone think Daemons will get as much content as this, if any? Will the Grey Knights get anything meaningful?!

 

I'm sorry that i'm soapboxing a bit, but wow... I'm not going to ask anyone to be positive and silence their opinions. I'm not going to ask anyone to be grateful for what we are getting. But can we just... tone down the salty ire and relax a bit? Can we not turn this into a thread of hyperbolic and conspiratorial statements that GW wants us to be bad? Have a little perspective, ya know? Can we just... focus more on what we do have instead of what we don't? 

 

***

 

Being able to sabotage vehicles is neat - it's just the flavor I've been looking for with AL. That's more of the flavor the Legion needs - not just being sneaky and infiltrating, but saboteurs and disruptors. And there are still 5 more strategems that might have the same flavor. Good stuff. Granted, the Cult Leader trait is a swing and miss (whole lot of "-1 AP on a 6" going around these days), but oh well - there are still 5 other warlord traits I don't know about yet. So far, from what I've seen, and for what this is (as mentioned, DLC), it seems fine. 

 

I still probably won't buy the book. But that's because I don't want to spend $40 for a leaflet of lore and three pages of content for my one sub-faction. And because Battlescribe and the Internet exist, so there's no need anyway. But more than that, I'm probably not buying it because all of Psychic Awakening has been so very... underwhelming. This campaign is quite hollow when compared to Vigilus, or campaigns from editions prior, and no amount of "biggest and best-est ever-est" marketing on WarCom can change that. It's not because CSM has been mistreated (again), but because this campaign is anemic and phoned-in, and doesn't deserve our wider support as a fanbase. 

[Lord_Starscream]

There is... a lot of anger in here today. Some of it feels a bit justified, but most... is a bit overreactionary, folks. Can't say I'm a fan of it all. For the first 7-8 pages of this thread, things have stayed calm and level-headed, rational with some fun wishlisting. It's been nice - it's that kind of conversation and mentality that makes this my favorite place to visit for CSM discussion. But wow... after today's preview, this place is becoming a salt mine... I come here because it's a sanctuary from other online forums, not because it's the same as them.

 

Honestly, who thought PA was going to fix anything? What would have given any of us that impression? Looking at what PA1 provided the Aeldari, it was very clear what PA isn't - a fix to all non-SM books. We won't be fixed until we get a proper "new" codex. And that is a long, long time away - just like for every other non-SM and non-SoB army that exists right now. And there's nothing we can do about it except wait... like every other non-SM codex and non-SoB out there currently. PA is not a fix, or a patch, or a rework, or redesign, or an upgrade for any faction. It's bonus, DLC content. Expecting anymore more than what we are getting is honestly kinda greedy. Take a step back and think... did the Aeldari get the same level of content? Will the Tyranids and Orks and Necrons get this much attention? I mean, really... does anyone think that the Dark Angels will fare any better out of this than we will? Does anyone think Daemons will get as much content as this, if any? Will the Grey Knights get anything meaningful?!

 

I'm sorry that i'm soapboxing a bit, but wow... I'm not going to ask anyone to be positive and silence their opinions. I'm not going to ask anyone to be grateful for what we are getting. But can we just... tone down the salty ire and relax a bit? Can we not turn this into a thread of hyperbolic and conspiratorial statements that GW wants us to be bad? Have a little perspective, ya know? Can we just... focus more on what we do have instead of what we don't? 

 

***

 

Being able to sabotage vehicles is neat - it's just the flavor I've been looking for with AL. That's more of the flavor the Legion needs - not just being sneaky and infiltrating, but saboteurs and disruptors. And there are still 5 more strategems that might have the same flavor. Good stuff. Granted, the Cult Leader trait is a swing and miss (whole lot of "-1 AP on a 6" going around these days), but oh well - there are still 5 other warlord traits I don't know about yet. So far, from what I've seen, and for what this is (as mentioned, DLC), it seems fine. 

 

I still probably won't buy the book. But that's because I don't want to spend $40 for a leaflet of lore and three pages of content for my one sub-faction. And because Battlescribe and the Internet exist, so there's no need anyway. But more than that, I'm probably not buying it because all of Psychic Awakening has been so very... underwhelming. This campaign is quite hollow when compared to Vigilus, or campaigns from editions prior, and no amount of "biggest and best-est ever-est" marketing on WarCom can change that. It's not because CSM has been mistreated (again), but because this campaign is anemic and phoned-in, and doesn't deserve our wider support as a fanbase. 

 

 

Well, let me start by saying it's an extremely positive release. I'm getting to save money. Saving money is a positive thing.

 

And things can only be badly mishandled for what? A decade? Before people are starting to become conspiracy theorists. This has been badly handled, repeatedly, by a company that keeps on asking for more money, to the point where its preposterous.

[Dragonlover]

=][= Right then. I'm pretty sure every aspect of why this is a terrible release has been chewed over, so let it lie or the meltas are gonna get some work. Stop focusing on what can't be done, start chucking out ideas for what can. =][=

 

Dragonlover

[Aothaine]

Again, with respect, that isn't so much a list of reasons to trust GW as it is a "these are the reasons I think they do what they do" list. 

 

Fair enough. I think your points are valid. But saying that my opinion is wrong or that the points I brought up are not reasons for me to trust GW is kind of rude. I don't think you meant to come across this way. I'm not trying to be rude myself. We clearly disagree in some areas but lets just leave it at that. We're getting a little off-topic here. 

 

I really do think, on first reading, that World Eaters and Alpha Legion have run away with the bank on this release. Gonna have to look into the others a bit more though and think about them. 

 

Daemonic Whispers: Pretty awesome! There are others similar to it but they only give 1 CP this one gives D3. I love it! :D

 

Apostle of the Dark Council: Very situational. It almost feels like it doesn't fit with Word Bearers with the exception of them lording it over massive cults. I wonder what kind of interactions this would have with cultist swarms. Though I think it would still work with Iron Warriors better as they have/had the trait to auto pass all morale checks. Still, interesting. Just not entirely sure how it will play out.

 

We Have Come for You: I really like this. Allows you to lock up a bunch of stuff. Run that 20-man CSM squad or 9-man bike squad into the enemy lines and multi-charge 2+ units and lock them in combat. What is not to like about this in such a shooting focused meta?

 

Vox Daemonicus: I like it, but I feel that there are better relics you can take. It does hamper some lists a little and messes with the newer aura rules that state units have to be entirely within the aura. So this might have more power than most people think.

 

Sabotaged Armory: This is pure gold. Everyone loves spiking that Imperial Knight on the first turn. This makes doing so that much more fun. I'm wondering if fielding three quad las cannon Havocs is the way to go in the future for Alpha Legion. This is really going to mess with aura armies which dominate the meta right now.

 

Cult Leader: I'm sure there is a use for this. I'm failing to see why they gave a warlord trait to buff cultists. Pretty sure this is designed for narrative play only.

 

Siege Master: So now Iron Warrior Havocs can move and shoot without penalty and reroll 1s to wound. Pretty decent warlord trait. +1 to wound is no joke. Those Lascannon Havocs are wounding most things on 2+ now. :D

 

Combat Elixirs: For 2cp and only once per battle it should apply all of those buffs to one unit imho. Regardless of what you roll for here this unit is going to be focused down.

 

Raiment Rulvulsive: I understand what they are trying to do here. However, this should prevent over watch as well. It is an attempt to make assaulting better but the issue of getting blown away before your HQ relic wearing juggernaut even gets to do something is just to real for this relic to do too much imho.

 

Disciple of Khorne: For your character hunter lord. Might be good for the new Chaos Lord model with the Thunder Hammer. But it is better just to go with a chainaxe and take Gorefather for the flat 3 damage.

 

Gorefather: This is a beast of a relic. +2/-2/3 the stat line of this relic is impressive. Get those wound rolls of nat 6 and cause 3 mortal wounds. Good day sir! I said good day! This is pretty damned awesome. It does have the -1 to hit drawback but since this is going to be on your chaos lords and they hit on a 2+ anyway it shouldn't matter too much as they have a reroll 1s hit aura. Toss them in with an apostle for extra chances for the nat 6 and you're rocking. 

 

This isn't all of the content Chaos is getting. It is a sample of it. I'm planning on picking this book up for sure. I'm really looking forward to see what else they are doing for Chaos. I think it is not as bleak as many think it will be. But time will tell.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I guess what can be done is save more money. Good advice Lanparth!