Psychic Awakening 2 Chaos factions

[Prot]

Let’s not turn on each other here. Obviously an army with the immense depth and background, and the sheer amount of codex entries of Chaos Space Marines is going to have a very different expectation on it than say.., Tau.

 

Being 100% honest here... I think GW made a massive mistake. The update to Chaos in Vigilus still wasn’t anywhere near what loyalists got...and even post supplements, SM are still using some of those Detachments in tournaments! That’s great for the loyalist player.

 

Fast forward to the supplements and the divide just feels tremendous between CSM and SM. Tau? They’re still winning tournaments...so are other Xenos. So I think when someone sounds ‘salty’ here we’re seeing that great divide just get larger and it’s.... I hate to say this... lazy rules writing and the left hand hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

 

That’s just my opinion, but I do want to (more importantly) add that I seriously doubt the PA books are going to change any of this. CA is also written a while ago.

 

PA will add some entertainment and background. Let’s just look at it like that and anything else is a bonus.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Prot

[SyNidus]

I agree with Prot - keep your expectations low, as hard as that can be, and it'll be easier to be happier. Perhaps that might keep you positive enough find some good combos.

[Lord_Starscream]

Let’s not turn on each other here. Obviously an army with the immense depth and background, and the sheer amount of codex entries of Chaos Space Marines is going to have a very different expectation on it than say.., Tau.

 

Being 100% honest here... I think GW made a massive mistake. The update to Chaos in Vigilus still wasn’t anywhere near what loyalists got...and even post supplements, SM are still using some of those Detachments in tournaments! That’s great for the loyalist player.

 

Fast forward to the supplements and the divide just feels tremendous between CSM and SM. Tau? They’re still winning tournaments...so are other Xenos. So I think when someone sounds ‘salty’ here we’re seeing that great divide just get larger and it’s.... I hate to say this... lazy rules writing and the left hand hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

 

That’s just my opinion, but I do want to (more importantly) add that I seriously doubt the PA books are going to change any of this. CA is also written a while ago.

 

PA will add some entertainment and background. Let’s just look at it like that and anything else is a bonus.

 

 

And just watch. I personally guess four to five years before Chaos gets appropriately taken care of. I'm not kidding. The next 1-2 years imo, will include probably World Eaters or at least Emperor's children, and those rules / models won't cut it against the Imperials, because of design itself, and those rules won't be retroactively just made in line. The range is the biggest problem before even how hard they hit. GW's launches on these product(s) are going to show the fissures, but they won't fix old models, fixes always come with new releases, and the turnaround for a big faction overhaul with new models will take an additional 2-3 years.

 

This is going to be the new normal. It's going to be a mess.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Let’s not turn on each other here. Obviously an army with the immense depth and background, and the sheer amount of codex entries of Chaos Space Marines is going to have a very different expectation on it than say.., Tau.

 

Being 100% honest here... I think GW made a massive mistake. The update to Chaos in Vigilus still wasn’t anywhere near what loyalists got...and even post supplements, SM are still using some of those Detachments in tournaments! That’s great for the loyalist player.

 

Fast forward to the supplements and the divide just feels tremendous between CSM and SM. Tau? They’re still winning tournaments...so are other Xenos. So I think when someone sounds ‘salty’ here we’re seeing that great divide just get larger and it’s.... I hate to say this... lazy rules writing and the left hand hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

 

That’s just my opinion, but I do want to (more importantly) add that I seriously doubt the PA books are going to change any of this. CA is also written a while ago.

 

PA will add some entertainment and background. Let’s just look at it like that and anything else is a bonus.

 

I agree with alot of what you said, despite my optimism there are some GLARING problems. 

 

An example long before Ablaze: Vigilus Part 1, Haarken is released, and Calgar is released..... 

 

And just by looking at their statlines there is literally NO comparison. Its like Calgar was carefully gauged and thought out....and Haarken was thrown together in 5 minutes by an intern who doesn't play the game. 

 

It makes me wonder what some of the rules writers are up to when looking at *ludicrous* power disparities in some units. Lets take it down a notch and compare Haarken to.... say one of the new characters? Khan who is 10 points cheaper, and other then being marginally "slower" is better in literally every other way for 10 points LESS. Some of the design conventions are confusing and mind-boggling. 

 

It is particularly sad because Haarken might be one of the best Chaos models in all of GWs catalogue (IMHO). Absolutely stellar model design with a great and unique role (Raptor Lord? AWESOME!) but......the delivery just..... at the ABSOLUTE best he is mediocre and that is designing an entire list to function with him specifically in mind. Its greatly hampering and doesn't make any bloody sense! 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Sonoftherubric21

[techsoldaten]

 

Let’s not turn on each other here. Obviously an army with the immense depth and background, and the sheer amount of codex entries of Chaos Space Marines is going to have a very different expectation on it than say.., Tau.

 

Being 100% honest here... I think GW made a massive mistake. The update to Chaos in Vigilus still wasn’t anywhere near what loyalists got...and even post supplements, SM are still using some of those Detachments in tournaments! That’s great for the loyalist player.

 

Fast forward to the supplements and the divide just feels tremendous between CSM and SM. Tau? They’re still winning tournaments...so are other Xenos. So I think when someone sounds ‘salty’ here we’re seeing that great divide just get larger and it’s.... I hate to say this... lazy rules writing and the left hand hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

 

That’s just my opinion, but I do want to (more importantly) add that I seriously doubt the PA books are going to change any of this. CA is also written a while ago.

 

PA will add some entertainment and background. Let’s just look at it like that and anything else is a bonus.

 

I agree with alot of what you said, despite my optimism there are some GLARING problems. 

 

An example long before Ablaze: Vigilus Part 1, Haarken is released, and Calgar is released..... 

 

And just by looking at their statlines there is literally NO comparison. Its like Calgar was carefully gauged and thought out....and Haarken was thrown together in 5 minutes by an intern who doesn't play the game. 

 

It makes me wonder what some of the rules writers are up to when looking at *ludicrous* power disparities in some units. Lets take it down a notch and compare Haarken to.... say one of the new characters? Khan who is 10 points cheaper, and other then being marginally "slower" is better in literally every other way for 10 points LESS. Some of the design conventions are confusing and mind-boggling. 

 

It is particularly sad because Haarken might be one of the best Chaos models in all of GWs catalogue (IMHO). Absolutely stellar model design with a great and unique role (Raptor Lord? AWESOME!) but......the delivery just..... at the ABSOLUTE best he is mediocre and that is designing an entire list to function with him specifically in mind. Its greatly hampering and doesn't make any bloody sense! 

 

 

Then had to un-nerf Harken upon release, the rules were too restrictive.

 

Think about that for a minute.

[Marshal Loss]

Looks like we are getting a selection of daemon weapons for all CSM factions:

 

 

 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

So just from index page number we can safely assume this is NOT codex supplement tier content since those books all got 2 pages of stratagems.  I guess the devil will be in the details??

 

Heh... it also appears that Black Templars are getting less than codex supplement tier also.  :(  

[Closet Skeleton]

Hellforged sword is just the daemon prince weapon, so that's a big downgrade. A strength 6-10 weapon just doesn't mean anything.

 

The fact that we are now relying on a codex, a campaign book, and another iteration of CA (despite the codex being less than 9 months old) - not to mention Vigilus -

 

 

My Chaos Space Marines codex is way over 9 months old, the revised edition was literally designed to be useless if you had Vigilus Ablaze and the Shadowspear booklet so I and I assume quite a few people never bought it.

 

 

So just from index page number we can safely assume this is NOT codex supplement tier content since those books all got 2 pages of stratagems.  I guess the devil will be in the details??

 

Heh... it also appears that Black Templars are getting less than codex supplement tier also.    

 

Its one less page of stratagems, that's not a big difference. I'm sure that at least one of these legions will be better in some sense than the worst loyalist first founding, 3/6 awesome stratagems is about the same as 2/12.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Iron Father Ferrum]

How is it a downgrade? You lose point of damage, gain strength, gain attacks, AND gain three more points of AP.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

How is it a downgrade? You lose point of damage, gain strength, gain attacks, AND gain three more points of AP.

This relic is only SLIGHTLY better than a hellforged sword against targets with no invulnerable save.  

 

Obviously this relic is a reasonable upgrade on a chaos lord but it flatly worse than The Burning Blade which never hurts the wielder and always gives +3 str -5 ap and 2 damage.  Zaall seems like it should be 3 damage.

 

This relic looks like 2018 content not post marine codex content.  

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Hellforged sword is just the daemon prince weapon, so that's a big downgrade. A strength 6-10 weapon just doesn't mean anything.

 

The fact that we are now relying on a codex, a campaign book, and another iteration of CA (despite the codex being less than 9 months old) - not to mention Vigilus -

 

 

My Chaos Space Marines codex is way over 9 months old, the revised edition was literally designed to be useless if you had Vigilus Ablaze and the Shadowspear booklet so I and I assume quite a few people never bought it.

 

 

So just from index page number we can safely assume this is NOT codex supplement tier content since those books all got 2 pages of stratagems.  I guess the devil will be in the details??

 

Heh... it also appears that Black Templars are getting less than codex supplement tier also.    

 

Its one less page of stratagems, that's not a big difference. I'm sure that at least one of these legions will be better in some sense than the worst loyalist first founding, 3/6 awesome stratagems is about the same as 2/12.

It is half the stratagems.  That isn't a good look.    

[Closet Skeleton]

How is it a downgrade? You lose point of damage, gain strength, gain attacks, AND gain three more points of AP.

 

You don't gain attacks, it would be worth it if you did but that's not a part of the default daemon weapon ability as quoted.

[Kain Mor]

I still don't see stratagems making a difference with a CP starved army. You can't fix an army who’s base units are overcosted and shackled by mediocre rules by adding a page of stratagems that are likely to cost 2-3 CP for the one or two decent ones.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I still don't see stratagems making a difference with a CP starved army. You can't fix an army who’s base units are overcosted and shackled by mediocre rules by adding a page of stratagems that are likely to cost 2-3 CP for the one or two decent ones.

GW seems to understand this since Space Marines got datasheet buffs to key units and it made a big difference.  Marine baseline troops are also fantastic and totally outclass CSM in every regard.  

[Kain Mor]

GW clearly understands this, but unless they've been cheeky and put datasheet reworks in chapter approved, I don't see this going very well.

Honestly, for the Night Lords to be unique and effective I almost feel like changes to the core rules of the morale phase need to be made.

The name generator is a nice touch though?

Edited November 11, 2019 by Kain Mor

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

How is it a downgrade? You lose point of damage, gain strength, gain attacks, AND gain three more points of AP.

You don't gain attacks, it would be worth it if you did but that's not a part of the default daemon weapon ability as quoted.

You're correct, I'm crossing wires with Drachnyen.

[Marshal Loss]

 

The fact that we are now relying on a codex, a campaign book, and another iteration of CA (despite the codex being less than 9 months old) - not to mention Vigilus -

 

 

My Chaos Space Marines codex is way over 9 months old, the revised edition was literally designed to be useless if you had Vigilus Ablaze and the Shadowspear booklet so I and I assume quite a few people never bought it.

 

Don't be pedantic. GW chose to release an updated codex, error-filled though it was, and an updated release is still a release. Whether or not you personally needed to buy it doesn't matter when there are rules spread across all of these books that Chaos players may very well require. Technically speaking there are options in the latest codex (e.g. thunder hammer) that did not appear in Vigilus Ablaze.

 

Add the Shadowspear minidex for Daemonkin to that list (thanks for the reminder), as the Daemonkin warlord traits have not been printed anywhere else. So if you want the point made it an even more obvious fashion, in the last 2.5 years, CSM fans have had:

 

2017:

Index Chaos

Codex CSM 8.0

CA17

2018:

CA18

2019:

Daemonkin minidex

Vigilus Ablaze

Codex CSM 8.1

PA: Faith & Fury

CA 19

 

Remove the CAs if desired but the point stands regardless

Edited November 11, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Midnight Brotherhood]

I've yet to play against my regular opponents Crimson Fists (been busy playing age of sigmar and LOTR instead recently) so I haven't experienced the new marines yet. That being said I don't think the NL legion trait was totally useless, sometimes I would find my opponent doesn't want to part with 2CP to morale immunity because he has a combo he wants to do up his sleeve meaning some models would get removed. Othertime he does use it but hey my opponent spent 2CP. Now we're not competitive players in my local group by any means (we play what we like the look of regardless of rules) but I'm still looking forward to this update.

 

What I'd like to see the most is our legion trait affect all of our units (bar cultists) like the Space Marines. I'm really hoping page 66 in that contents page provides this or even an improved version of the legion trait AND army wide. While I'm quite happy with the NL current warlord trait, artefact and strategem I'd love to see more. Strategems can be game changers, especially if they do something with the deployments or deep strikes. I'm optimistic for the NL stuff at least.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I'm cautiously optimistic. Even if the new book doesn't change our legion traits at all, I will actually run my Word Bearers as Word Bearers if their strats/relic/warlord traits are half decent. I just really hope there aren't anymore deamon summoning related buffs because boy is summoning awful at the moment. 

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Don't be pedantic. GW chose to release an updated codex, error-filled though it was, and an updated release is still a release. Whether or not you personally needed to buy it doesn't matter when there are rules spread across all of these books that Chaos players may very well require. Technically speaking there are options in the latest codex (e.g. thunder hammer) that did not appear in Vigilus Ablaze.

 

 

 

I didn't say it wasn't a release (though not a separate one from V:A according to the advertising), but something isn't a replacement codex unless it invalidates the old one. They literally advertised the update to be unnecessary on the warhammer community site (which wasn't accurate since they forgot to mention needing the shadowspear supplement for the new obliterator datasheet).

 

Thunder hammers are in Vigilus Ablaze. The main error in the codex was fixed in the shadowspear supplement.

 

You've left out bolter beta rules and the hateful assault errata.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Marshal Loss]

 

I didn't say it wasn't a release

 

And I didn't say it invalidated 8.0 or was a "replacement codex", did I now? Whether it did or did not invalidate the 8.0 codex is completely irrelevant: put as simply as I possibly can for you, in a single calendar year we have received an incredible amount of paid rules content, among which was a codex. That codex is, therefore, less than 9 months old. FAQs/errata obviously have no place on my list because they do not cost the consumer.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Special Officer Doofy]

Marshal Loss thanks for posting the info!

[Iron_Within]

 

2017:

Index Chaos

Codex CSM 8.0

CA17

2018:

CA18

2019:

Daemonkin minidex

Vigilus Ablaze

Codex CSM 8.1

PA: Faith & Fury

CA 19

 

Remove the CAs if desired but the point stands regardless

 

This is why I have back problems....

[Sonoftherubric21]

On a positive note: I like the sword, and I hope they drown us in new daemon weapon relics. 

I am 100% okay with having a 16% chance of getting screwed by my own weapon... I am a Thousand Son at heart...I am used to bad things happening to my own guys  .

 

That being said: It needs to be worth the cost for the trade off regarding the risk. That is a cool sword to stick on a lord but it seems mediocre. I want to see more! several for each god and some generic ones. Should be a blast to use (speaking of blast I hope for some guns on lords myself. I like the idea of ranged Marine HQs) 

[Marshal Loss]

I hope for some guns on lords myself. I like the idea of ranged Marine HQs) 

 

Veterans among us remember the glory days of the Kai Gun!