Psychic Awakening 2 Chaos factions

[Ghorgul]

Of course I am hopeful for good amount rules content for all the chaos legions, but I'm afraid the best we can get will be Chaos Legions book with some extremely low effort half-baked rules. I will be happy if we get good rules for all the legions in single book, and by rules I mean something that isn't only an afterthought in some special situations like the Night Lords' rules kind of are at this moment.

 

And please, if there are more Chaos stuff coming I want CSM to have broader identity than just marines with daemonic stuff and [dino]bots. I hate the dinobot aesthetic, and the models are so toylike.

[Emicus]

If you don't want marines with daemons and helltech, you just want spiky marines then?

 

Because spiky marines suck.

[MegaVolt87]

Interesting how the source has capped themselves at PA 4. I assume its to throw internal investigations from their tail. Any further leaks would probably be bulking out prior info/ speculation at this point. I don't mind, considering we haven't even gotten PA 2 yet really.  

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If you don't want marines with daemons and helltech, you just want spiky marines then?

 

Because spiky marines suck.

That's helpful, thanks.

 

Honestly though, do you know how many daemon engines currently benefit from Legion Traits? Zero.

 

Do you know how many stratagems we have that affect daemon engines? Four, but two of them are locked behind a Vigilus Detachment.

 

Our daemon engines are so mediocre that we have two new HQs specifically designed to improve their durability and lethality and they're *still* not as durable or lethal as a Repulsor in most instances.

 

When was the last time you saw Possessed in the army on a GT top table? Warp Talons? Greater Possessed?

 

Our one Helbrute-specific stratagem doesn't work on FW Helforged Helbrutes/Dreadnoughts.

 

So yeah, spikey Marines are meh...but so are daemonic Marines. Our whole codex is behind the power curve.

[Panzer]

Interesting how the source has capped themselves at PA 4. I assume its to throw internal investigations from their tail. Any further leaks would probably be bulking out prior info/ speculation at this point. I don't mind, considering we haven't even gotten PA 2 yet really.  

 

I think it's more like because he simply doesn't know more because GW is currently rolling out PA1-4 in a really quick pace and I assume then we'll have a break for a while before they continue with PA.

[NecroShadow]

As a word bearers collector, I would happily perform some chaos rituals to get some new plastic possessed with general improvements to legion daemon elements. Especially if the word bearer trait was altered or improved to have support for them, to get a nice mix of lore and game support.

[Warsmith Annüss]

I just want to know how many bodies I need to flay to get some decent NL rules. There's never to many. GW, give me a number!

[Prot]

Something I’ve been waiting for happens in November. The thing is it can’t be a character. I was saying in the Thousand Sons forum... I’ve personally had enough of these 40 dollar character sculpts that are supposed to fix broken units. Yes I realize GW gets a lot of mileage out of a single sculpt this way, but I think we’ve seen it doesn’t work.

 

The point about Daemon engines is well made. They are some of my favourite units in the codex but it’s been a very, very long time since they worked. To top this off GW did such a great job showcasing us new Daemon engines with a distinct look with Vigilus where they were being created by MoPs and Warsmiths. The ball was really dropped on the theme but if anything it did show GW people want chaos marine models and rules.

 

So if we see a units of Zerkers, and it’s a similar box to the Deldar box... let’s say rules are on the same level, and it’s a squad of Zerkers and a squad of Templar elites.... will you buy it?

[Emicus]

 

If you don't want marines with daemons and helltech, you just want spiky marines then?

 

Because spiky marines suck.

That's helpful, thanks.

 

Honestly though, do you know how many daemon engines currently benefit from Legion Traits? Zero.

 

Do you know how many stratagems we have that affect daemon engines? Four, but two of them are locked behind a Vigilus Detachment.

 

Our daemon engines are so mediocre that we have two new HQs specifically designed to improve their durability and lethality and they're *still* not as durable or lethal as a Repulsor in most instances.

 

When was the last time you saw Possessed in the army on a GT top table? Warp Talons? Greater Possessed?

 

Our one Helbrute-specific stratagem doesn't work on FW Helforged Helbrutes/Dreadnoughts.

 

So yeah, spikey Marines are meh...but so are daemonic Marines. Our whole codex is behind the power curve.

I wasn't clear it seems. I don't mean to say the csm dex is great and nothing should happen.

 

But it seemed to me you argued essentially 'codex marines, but with spikes', since you don't want either daemons or helltech.

 

I personally don't feel that chaos is very interesting if they are just marines, because then I'd just play marines.

 

As for power: yes, get something strong. 'Madness of chaos' get power from murder. Have a bunch more army wide demonic stratagems 'seek khornes favour +1 attack to everything'

When you kill something, get a command point and call it 'pillaging from the eye'

 

Oh and make it easier to take daemons too.

 

And if marks are going to exist like they do now, there should be a lot more stuff that utilizes them. 1 stratagem is a joke

[Special Officer Doofy]

@Emicus I think the consensus was currently Daemon engines suck and don't benefit from legion traits, not that we want it like that. Chaos needs the space marine treatment of better traits, legion wide not just infantry, bikes and brutes and some mono army love like doctrines and then a second legion benefit from those said doctrines, legion specific worthwhile strategems and more relics/warlord traits. I don't want to be just spikey marines but normal marines are just so much more powerful now with that new codex/supplements that it's going to take alot to get chaos there. A stupid Daemon engine Detatchment like from vigilus is not going to cut it at all.

[MegaVolt87]

We are still legions, with legionaries. We are not regular space marines with spikes. We should reflect that, by being closer to HH rules etc. Loyalists get grav, we should have volkite weapons as something special for us for instance. Spiky marines are renegade trash like Red Corsairs. We have better perrigree and origins than that.

[Emicus]

I suppose that's what makes chaos so hard. Encompassing traitor legions and warbands and 10000 years of depravity in hell

[Sonoftherubric21]

Honestly even without a ton of new rules: Berzerkers, Noise Marines, and Possessed.

Make those into plastic kits, and GW can take ALL MY MONEY. I would love to see new plastic sets for these and all are relatively useful on the table. 

 

I actually think that even if all we get is Strat, Warlord Trait, and Relics that would be a massive (and needed) boost to all of the legions in the list. Black Legion are the closest thing we have to an undivided legion that still works (more or less...) on the table and can tip the balance of power with some nice strategems and some solid relics, and "decent" warlord traits.....along with Abbadon kicking teeth in. 

 

Will that put us on parity with New Marines? No of course not, but its a huge step for the above mentioned legions. Obviously preference: "Make your own warband" rules, supplement releases akin to loyalists, and updated modernized multi-part legion tactics that have real crunch like the marine lists.

[Lord_Starscream]

Honestly even without a ton of new rules: Berzerkers, Noise Marines, and Possessed.

 

Make those into plastic kits, and GW can take ALL MY MONEY. I would love to see new plastic sets for these and all are relatively useful on the table. 

 

I actually think that even if all we get is Strat, Warlord Trait, and Relics that would be a massive (and needed) boost to all of the legions in the list. Black Legion are the closest thing we have to an undivided legion that still works (more or less...) on the table and can tip the balance of power with some nice strategems and some solid relics, and "decent" warlord traits.....along with Abbadon kicking teeth in. 

 

Will that put us on parity with New Marines? No of course not, but its a huge step for the above mentioned legions. Obviously preference: "Make your own warband" rules, supplement releases akin to loyalists, and updated modernized multi-part legion tactics that have real crunch like the marine lists.

 

I don't agree actually.

 

Possessed and Berserkers are units that will struggle to find any meaning in the current edition. As for Noise Marines, I think they'll find themselves in the position of el generico marines. These units are designed for a game that's no longer being played. An era of melee and effective 24 inch infantry weaponry. In an era where you can be deleted with extreme prejudice at 30 inches by multiple armies, or Eldar, they're going to be a hard sell.

 

Fundamentally, they are fragile units (maybe Possessed will get a buff). Durability is a fantasy for most armies unless they're things like Necrons or Death Guard / Nurgle Daemons. More than tactics or army wide rules, I want things that are going to be effective as an actual army. Right now, Chaos suffers from being an underequiped, technologically backwards army. Before, when everything was still in that 24 threat range, they could still be very effective. Now I think it's questionable.

 

They're either able to be outmaneuvered and blitzed by dangerous xeno weapons (Eldar of all types), or forced into fighting gunlines or monstrous levesl of enemy firepower (Primaris, Executioners, Guard, Knights, ect). WIth things shutting down deepstrike now, it's really another tool out of the box for them. In other words, it's a big problem. Old models that need new models, are not going to really help, in my opinion. Chaos needs a revitalization, much like the marines got. And I think we're a long way from there.

 

New releases that aren't that, are just more kindling for the fire :(

[Slaanbull]

Lots of good ideas around here, some of my hobby mates dislike discussing rumours as they feel it ends up being better/cooler than the reality.

 

What I feel is a missed opportunity with Chaos Space Marines, and the new havocs for example, is a way to differentiate them from loyalists on the squad level. I don't understand why a havoc champion would go unarmed, he should have the biggest gun of the five!

A devastator sergeant gives his squad buffs with the auspex etc, a havoc champion should be molded by the warp and have daemomic emergies coarsing through his body, melding him with the reaper chaincannon.

 

I've looked with envy on the exarch rules and would love to be able to have cool aspiring champions with special rules, 2 wounds like nobs etc, more options for icons. I always imagine a large CSM army to look like a host with multiple banners, standards, icons, infantry rallying around aspiring champions of the dark gods.

 

Having greater possessed in the elite slot goes a long way, but as said by someone earlier, having characters fix subpar units instead of fixing the unit in question does no good.

 

My dream for the codex would be more stratagems and options using marks, ways to upgrade squads to veterans and differentiate/specialize them. :)

 

I expected the PA2 book to update legion traits, as well as adding stratagems and a small monolegion bonus (like combat drugs for EC from the traitor legions supplement in late 7th). I don't hope for that anymore.

 

As long as we get plastic noise marines I don't really care about the rules though. ;)

[Lord_Starscream]

Lots of good ideas around here, some of my hobby mates dislike discussing rumours as they feel it ends up being better/cooler than the reality.

 

What I feel is a missed opportunity with Chaos Space Marines, and the new havocs for example, is a way to differentiate them from loyalists on the squad level. I don't understand why a havoc champion would go unarmed, he should have the biggest gun of the five!

A devastator sergeant gives his squad buffs with the auspex etc, a havoc champion should be molded by the warp and have daemomic emergies coarsing through his body, melding him with the reaper chaincannon.

 

I've looked with envy on the exarch rules and would love to be able to have cool aspiring champions with special rules, 2 wounds like nobs etc, more options for icons. I always imagine a large CSM army to look like a host with multiple banners, standards, icons, infantry rallying around aspiring champions of the dark gods.

 

Having greater possessed in the elite slot goes a long way, but as said by someone earlier, having characters fix subpar units instead of fixing the unit in question does no good.

 

My dream for the codex would be more stratagems and options using marks, ways to upgrade squads to veterans and differentiate/specialize them.

 

I expected the PA2 book to update legion traits, as well as adding stratagems and a small monolegion bonus (like combat drugs for EC from the traitor legions supplement in late 7th). I don't hope for that anymore.

 

As long as we get plastic noise marines I don't really care about the rules though.

 

I think you're not getting Plastic Noise Marines, until an Emperor's Children codex comes.

 

They'll do that as a BIG release, and you'll see marketing for it. I haven't seen anything that makes me think anything is coming until next year at least.

[Slaanbull]

I think you're not getting Plastic Noise Marines, until an Emperor's Children codex comes.

 

They'll do that as a BIG release, and you'll see marketing for it. I haven't seen anything that makes me think anything is coming until next year at least.

Oh most definitely, I don't expect any other models than the teased sorceror for this release.

 

No matter, no rush, I haven't used my Noise Marines on the table ever since I accidentaly compared them to an opponents assault bolter intercessors.. ;)

 

Can't find my copy of Traitor Legion supplement, do we have a list of the relics in that book?

[Special Officer Doofy]

@Lanparth: Some doom and gloom there but you're completely right. As long as chaos is more melee focused they will always be at a disadvantage. New models won't help. But I feel if they get the space marine treatment they will at least close the gap, and then with lots of terrain, mission objectives and prayers to the dice gods they can pull their weight. But that will take codexes and supplements, not a "psychic awakening". I'd love to be wrong on that though.

 

I feel with chaos the natural thing to do would be make world eaters and emperor's children their own codex and then keep the other 5 in the main. Im hoping in the mean time PA will at least give a quick trait upgrade and let it apply to the whole army. And maybe a mono bonus. But even that is a stretch.

 

Edit: Grammar

[Lord_Starscream]

@Lanparth: Some doom and gloom there but you're completely right. As long as chaos is more melee focused they will always be at a disadvantage. New models won't help. But I feel if they get the space marine treatment they will at least close the gap, and then with lots of terrain, mission objectives and prayers to the dice gods they can pull their weight. But that will take codexes and supplements, not a "psychic awakening". I'd love to be wrong on that though.

 

I feel with chaos the natural thing to do would be make world eaters and emperor's children their own codex and then keep the other 5 in the main. Im hoping in the mean time PA will at least give a quick trait upgrade and let it apply to the whole army. And maybe a mono bonus. But even that is a stretch.

 

Edit: Grammar

 

I think that World Eaters and Emperor's Children will be... problematic. I'm on the doom and gloom because I've got a pretty good idea of how GW's worked the last 25 years, and how they tackle problems. IE: How they avoid tackling problems until they are too much of a glaring issue.

 

The best quote I ever saw, was from Warseer, I had it in my signature for years, and it was simply

 

"As a fellow Ogre Kingdom's Player, I can tell you our best option in that scenario, is to die."

 

- This was because they were neglected, run into the ground for years, and just never got the units they needed to fill the holes in the line, or address the problems in the army.

 

This is the fate of most armies GW doesn't innately seem to "Get". World Eaters will need a real delivery system. I am skeptical, especially with how the infilitrators will work, that they are going to get that. Emperor's Children need increased range and durability. They might get one, but not the other. They'll be bolter fodder. These are because the studio is updating models that existed in previous editions, and adding some flavoured terminators or daemon engines. They don't address the core problems of the army, problems GW themselves created when they created Primaris Space Marines.

[Special Officer Doofy]

@Lanparth: Couldn't say it better myself. If I could talk to one of the GW developers for Psychic Awakening I would just give them this one scenario and ask this one question.

 

I have a death guard helbrute. My friend has a Iron hands Dreadnought. Those Legions are each others counterparts, the legions/chapters known for being tough, one loyal, one traitor. Both mono armies, no strats or support units. Both are geared for ranged anti tank, with twin lascannons and missile launchers. Both come out to 100 points exactly and are very very similar in base unit rules/stats.

 

My DG helbrute gets move and shoot heavies without penalty. That's it.

 

My friend's IH Dreadnought gets move and shoot heavies without penalties. AND re roll 1's to hit on heavies. AND -1AP on heavies. AND 6+++ FNP. AND hits on 5+ for overwatch. That's without strats or support (which he has waaaay more of anyways). That's simply for existing in an IH army, turn one doctrine.

 

My one question is this. What are you guys going to do to close that gap in "psychic awakening"?

[Lord_Starscream]

@Lanparth: Couldn't say it better myself. If I could talk to one of the GW developers for Psychic Awakening I would just give them this one scenario and ask this one question.

 

I have a death guard helbrute. My friend has a Iron hands Dreadnought. Those Legions are each others counterparts, the legions/chapters known for being tough, one loyal, one traitor. Both mono armies, no strats or support units. Both are geared for ranged anti tank, with twin lascannons and missile launchers. Both come out to 100 points exactly and are very very similar in base unit rules/stats.

 

My DG helbrute gets move and shoot heavies without penalty. That's it.

 

My friend's IH Dreadnought gets move and shoot heavies without penalties. AND re roll 1's to hit on heavies. AND -1AP on heavies. AND 6+++ FNP. AND hits on 5+ for overwatch. That's without strats or support (which he has waaaay more of anyways). That's simply for existing in an IH army, turn one doctrine.

 

My one question is this. What are you guys going to do to close that gap in "psychic awakening"?

 

You already know the answer to that lol

 

Plainly put, they aren't. It's not in the cards right now. Unless Chaos sales fall into oblivion, it's just not on their radar, and again, they'll not fix this with old models, that's not in their interest. The best case scenario is it'd be addressed in some way in 1-2 years.

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

@Lanparth: Couldn't say it better myself. If I could talk to one of the GW developers for Psychic Awakening I would just give them this one scenario and ask this one question.

 

I have a death guard helbrute. My friend has a Iron hands Dreadnought. Those Legions are each others counterparts, the legions/chapters known for being tough, one loyal, one traitor. Both mono armies, no strats or support units. Both are geared for ranged anti tank, with twin lascannons and missile launchers. Both come out to 100 points exactly and are very very similar in base unit rules/stats.

 

My DG helbrute gets move and shoot heavies without penalty. That's it.

 

My friend's IH Dreadnought gets move and shoot heavies without penalties. AND re roll 1's to hit on heavies. AND -1AP on heavies. AND 6+++ FNP. AND hits on 5+ for overwatch. That's without strats or support (which he has waaaay more of anyways). That's simply for existing in an IH army, turn one doctrine.

 

My one question is this. What are you guys going to do to close that gap in "psychic awakening"?

You already know the answer to that lol

 

Plainly put, they aren't. It's not in the cards right now. Unless Chaos sales fall into oblivion, it's just not on their radar, and again, they'll not fix this with old models, that's not in their interest. The best case scenario is it'd be addressed in some way in 1-2 years.

Yep. And until then I probably won't be hitting the table tops and definately not giving them another dime until it's addressed. I know they are a company and need money first and fair and balanced game second but I'm a player/customer, so I need a somewhat fair and balanced game first to give them my money.

 

But again, I would love for psychic awakening to address or start to address these issues and if it does I'll admit I'm wrong and give them business. Sorry for the doom and gloom guys, but right now my death guard have been destroyed by the new marine supplements a couple times and I just feel like Jodi Foster from The Accused.

[Captain Incompetence]

Do remember that GW probably still has another "big" Chaos release somewhere on the horizon. We still need more than half of the Shadowspear units to come out in seperate kits. Besides that, wasn't there a voxcaster episode prior to Shadowspear's release where they were joking about how it would be pretty neat to have new Berzerkers and/or posssessed sculpts?

[Excessus]

Do remember that GW probably still has another "big" Chaos release somewhere on the horizon. We still need more than half of the Shadowspear units to come out in seperate kits. Besides that, wasn't there a voxcaster episode prior to Shadowspear's release where they were joking about how it would be pretty neat to have new Berzerkers and/or posssessed sculpts?

 

Somewhere on the horizon is very vague though, and I'd expect them to update other codexes before us anyway since we just had one. What they hint at in the voxcast might as well just be them wishlisting as well. Some people at GW still play CSM, though I'm guessing not that many...

 

...I miss Andy Chambers... 

[Marshal Loss]

Around the time Shadowspear was released they said that they'd like to get around to re-doing the smaller Possessed, but I'm not expecting anything on that front next month, as much as I'd like to believe it. As for Berzerkers & Noise Marines, when they released the DG they said that this was the model they'd like to follow for future full Legion releases - plans may change of course but I don't expect to see either unit until the focus pans around to EC+ Fulgrim and/or WE + Angron. No information, just a gut feeling