Psychic Awakening 2 Chaos factions

[Marshal Loss]

Mate I still have bikes lying around in Australia from the 3.5 edition battleforce. You have my word that if I weaken and buy this battleforce, and there are bikes in it, they're yours :P

[techsoldaten]

Chaos bikers are the most prolific non-infantry model GW has ever sold. Collect Chaos long enough and you realize they're like bunnies.

 

During 5th edition, I was regularly using 6 squad of bikers. Good way to gun down a Dreadnought with meltas early game, back when Dreadnoughts mattered. They came as part of a CSM Battleforce Boxed set, the old one that had an entire army in a box. It cost just under $300 USD and had CSMs, Bikes, Raptors, Spawn, Berzerkers, a Chaos Lord, 2 Rhinos and Spawn.

 

When 6th edition came out, bikers had extra toughness, so I decided to get more. Made that decision just before the holidays and, unfortunately, I let friends know. Received 15 of them as gifts, as they were the cheapest Chaos model at the time (besides Spawn, which did not come in a 40k box so not everyone knew to look for it.)

 

When 7th edition came out, most of my friends thought it was a cash grab and decided to quit playing. I bought some of their armies, including unpainted and NIB stuff. This added up to about 30 unbuilt bikes along with many painted ones from various Legions.

 

By the time 8th edition came out, the total number of bikes I had sitting around (built and unbuilt) was over 100. It was time to reduce the inventory, needed a closet for other purposes.

 

The friends weren't coming back to the game, I started selling their armies on eBay. This was the first step, it left me with about 20 painted ones and 50 unpainted ones.

 

Found a store that trades NIB for credit, unloaded 20 of the unpainted ones as part of a big haul. Started doing painting commissions, unloaded 15 of the NIB ones as part of projects. Traded the remaining NIB bikes at a tournament, taking me down to about 20 painted ones and no NIB ones.

 

Then the cycle begins again.

 

Cleaned out the closet where I'd been keeping the armies I sold on eBay. Underneath the bottom shelf, there's a box of miniatures I bought off eBay and never did anything with. 10 of the 2nd edition bikes with the metal frontplates and scythes underneath along with Doomrider and an original Daemon Prince sculpt that stands about the height of a Primaris.

 

Apocalypse came out along with the new CSM sculpts. Bought 2 of the CSM Apocalypse Battalion Detachments. Lo and behold, 12 more NIB bikes.

 

Have been painting the new CSMs Black Legion and repainting the old Black Legion sculpts as Red Corsairs / Purge. Will need more CSMs / Raptors / etc, so it looks like I will get a copy of the Battleforce for Christmas. Meaning more NIB bikes incoming.

 

Currently sitting on 20 painted bikes and 32 unpainted bikes. Currently trying to decide whether to paint some of them up as Red Corsairs for fluff reasons or to just dump them.

 

How this relates to PA 2: GW better give us a specialist bike detachment. These things aren't going away and the rules aren't good enough to field them.

Edited October 25, 2019 by techsoldaten

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Chaos bikers are the most prolific non-infantry model GW has ever sold. Collect Chaos long enough and you realize they're like bunnies.

 

During 5th edition, I was regularly using 6 squad of bikers. Good way to gun down a Dreadnought with meltas early game, back when Dreadnoughts mattered. They came as part of a CSM Battleforce Boxed set, the old one that had an entire army in a box. It cost just under $300 USD and had CSMs, Bikes, Raptors, Spawn, Berzerkers, a Chaos Lord, 2 Rhinos and Spawn.

 

When 6th edition came out, bikers had extra toughness, so I decided to get more. Made that decision just before the holidays and, unfortunately, I let friends know. Received 15 of them as gifts, as they were the cheapest Chaos model at the time (besides Spawn, which did not come in a 40k box so not everyone knew to look for it.)

 

When 7th edition came out, most of my friends thought it was a cash grab and decided to quit playing. I bought some of their armies, including unpainted and NIB stuff. This added up to about 30 unbuilt bikes along with many painted ones from various Legions.

 

By the time 8th edition came out, the total number of bikes I had sitting around (built and unbuilt) was over 100. It was time to reduce the inventory, needed a closet for other purposes.

 

The friends weren't coming back to the game, I started selling their armies on eBay. This was the first step, it left me with about 20 painted ones and 50 unpainted ones.

 

Found a store that trades NIB for credit, unloaded 20 of the unpainted ones as part of a big haul. Started doing painting commissions, unloaded 15 of the NIB ones as part of projects. Traded the remaining NIB bikes at a tournament, taking me down to about 20 painted ones and no NIB ones.

 

Then the cycle begins again.

 

Cleaned out the closet where I'd been keeping the armies I sold on eBay. Underneath the bottom shelf, there's a box of miniatures I bought off eBay and never did anything with. 10 of the 2nd edition bikes with the metal frontplates and scythes underneath along with Doomrider and an original Daemon Prince sculpt that stands about the height of a Primaris.

 

Apocalypse came out along with the new CSM sculpts. Bought 2 of the CSM Apocalypse Battalion Detachments. Lo and behold, 12 more NIB bikes.

 

Have been painting the new CSMs Black Legion and repainting the old Black Legion sculpts as Red Corsairs / Purge. Will need more CSMs / Raptors / etc, so it looks like I will get a copy of the Battleforce for Christmas. Meaning more NIB bikes incoming.

 

Currently sitting on 20 painted bikes and 32 unpainted bikes. Currently trying to decide whether to paint some of them up as Red Corsairs for fluff reasons or to just dump them.

 

How this relates to PA 2: GW better give us a specialist bike detachment. These things aren't going away and the rules aren't good enough to field them.

GW should put in a detachment that's nothing but Khorne Berzerkers, Bikers, and a Terminator Lord, then call it Greatest Hits of the Long War. Like I've said before, Berzerkers constantly showed up in EVERYTHING during 3rd edition, to the point that if you bought a hundred dollars worth of items via mail order in WD, you got a free box of them. These types of shenanigans (Berzerkers in Battleforces, etc.) continued for some time, and then the plastic bikers joined in the fun while the Terminator Lord was the only solid plastic HQ sculpt for a while, so they put him EVERYWHERE.:)

[Sonoftherubric21]

Chaos bikes aren't good? I must be living in a fantasy world or something, mine always perform fine (usually take 6, give extra combi to unit leader) churn out shots and grind hordes and weak units and rush around capping objectives/bullying weak units. Seem fine to me. 

 

Does everyone here share the opinion that everything in our book sucks? All Engines, Raptors, Bikes, Marines, Cultists, Possessed, Predators. 

 

What precisely on these forums do people think are "good" from the Chaos Marine Dex? Because due to my count it seems like NOTHING. apparently Noise and Zerkers are added to this list of suck via 1 new codex apparently being good. 

 

- On topic: Seems like a neat box and new Sorcerer is always a neat thing. I hope that the accompanying sets of rules show promise. 

[Slave to Darkness]

Bikes sound good to me, got an old Doomrider that needs a crew to roll with... 

[Prot]

Bikes sound good to me, got an old Doomrider that needs a crew to roll with... 

 

Now Doomrider would be a perfect analogy to current Chaos. I'd love to see him back, and with his old rule of on a D6 roll of a 1 he just rides off into the sunset and leaves your game. lol Man those were corny times, but we loved them. :tu:

[TonyH122]

I'm not too pessimistic about the state of CSM going into the future. Who would have believed two months ago that SM would be cock of the walk, and without even reducing the cost of marines by 10 points, or whatever people have been screaming as necessary.

 

The thing that I would like, both to bring some parity in strength with SM while also preserving our distinct identity, is to grant marks a bonus for mono-codex armies - as a flip side to SM's doctrines. I think mark bonuses would be great to represent that, while SM operate as a cohesive force, working together simultaneously for an achievable goal, CSM are all working to achieve personal glory in all the different ways some came. Some chop, some run, some psychic, and some tough it out; they're all working to distinguish themselves form the pack.

 

That, and some improved legion traits, and I'd say we're gucci. I mean, our traits are just so bad. I purposely painted my army non-established colours so that I can freely change my legion as the mood (not the meta) takes me. But not always wanting to run my army as Alpha Legion, I really struggle to pick one. It's a choice between which various random bonuses that only come up 5% of the time.

[Lord_Starscream]

I'm not too pessimistic about the state of CSM going into the future. Who would have believed two months ago that SM would be cock of the walk, and without even reducing the cost of marines by 10 points, or whatever people have been screaming as necessary.

 

The thing that I would like, both to bring some parity in strength with SM while also preserving our distinct identity, is to grant marks a bonus for mono-codex armies - as a flip side to SM's doctrines. I think mark bonuses would be great to represent that, while SM operate as a cohesive force, working together simultaneously for an achievable goal, CSM are all working to achieve personal glory in all the different ways some came. Some chop, some run, some psychic, and some tough it out; they're all working to distinguish themselves form the pack.

 

That, and some improved legion traits, and I'd say we're gucci. I mean, our traits are just so bad. I purposely painted my army non-established colours so that I can freely change my legion as the mood (not the meta) takes me. But not always wanting to run my army as Alpha Legion, I really struggle to pick one. It's a choice between which various random bonuses that only come up 5% of the time.

 

I'd argue the issue isn't just traits though, a big problem is that Chaos infantry are tactically incompetent at this point in the game due to a clever combination of infiltrators and other Primaris units. Outranged by people with better guns and more durability, who can shut down your deep strikes, is a bad thing for an army with no equivalents. Eldar can duck past this with speed. Tau are the same range, and ironically are less capable in the same mobile firepower role as the marines now (Primaris, IE, Imperial Tau? :P), but Chaos's only real answer so far seems to be Monster Mash, and that's... lame.

[TonyH122]

 

I'm not too pessimistic about the state of CSM going into the future. Who would have believed two months ago that SM would be cock of the walk, and without even reducing the cost of marines by 10 points, or whatever people have been screaming as necessary.

 

The thing that I would like, both to bring some parity in strength with SM while also preserving our distinct identity, is to grant marks a bonus for mono-codex armies - as a flip side to SM's doctrines. I think mark bonuses would be great to represent that, while SM operate as a cohesive force, working together simultaneously for an achievable goal, CSM are all working to achieve personal glory in all the different ways some came. Some chop, some run, some psychic, and some tough it out; they're all working to distinguish themselves form the pack.

 

That, and some improved legion traits, and I'd say we're gucci. I mean, our traits are just so bad. I purposely painted my army non-established colours so that I can freely change my legion as the mood (not the meta) takes me. But not always wanting to run my army as Alpha Legion, I really struggle to pick one. It's a choice between which various random bonuses that only come up 5% of the time.

 

I'd argue the issue isn't just traits though, a big problem is that Chaos infantry are tactically incompetent at this point in the game due to a clever combination of infiltrators and other Primaris units. Outranged by people with better guns and more durability, who can shut down your deep strikes, is a bad thing for an army with no equivalents. Eldar can duck past this with speed. Tau are the same range, and ironically are less capable in the same mobile firepower role as the marines now (Primaris, IE, Imperial Tau? ), but Chaos's only real answer so far seems to be Monster Mash, and that's... lame.

 

 

Your point is well made, and I'm not saying that my fanboy ravings are a proper solution. My point was merely that GW managed to pull SM out of the gutter and make them top tier with some tweaks, none of which went to the 'reduce the points of everything power armoured by 75%' that people were saying was the only solution. Hey, it might not happen, and it might not be likely, but there's no reason why they couldn't do the same for CSM.

 

But, all of this notwithstanding, there's absolutely no denying that CSM are in a terrible, terrible spot, for all of the reasons that you mentioned. The only thing that saves me from curing GW's name is that my playgroup is comprised entirely of chaos players :)

[Slave to Darkness]

 

Bikes sound good to me, got an old Doomrider that needs a crew to roll with... 

 

Now Doomrider would be a perfect analogy to current Chaos. I'd love to see him back, and with his old rule of on a D6 roll of a 1 he just rides off into the sunset and leaves your game. lol Man those were corny times, but we loved them.

 

Id love to go back to some of the more wacky times, Ork Madboyz, random Shock Attak gun damage charts, vehicles going awol whenthey get damaged. I miss the old days. 

[dice4thedicegod]

There does seem like a particularly sharp disconnect between fluff (CSM referring to loyalist marines as thin bloods) and crunch (marines 2.0 handing chaos their ass in any doctrine stage)

[Iron_Within]

I've heavily edited the OP to reflect the new information coming out from Blood and Glory Psychic Awakening Faith and Fury.

We're getting:

• A new Sorcerer miniature 
• Rules for Alpha Legion, Emperors Children, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers and World Eaters 
• Black Templars are appearing as well
• New units and rules (for Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines).

They are all described as getting a "codex supplement-tier content" for all these factions.

If that is accurate, that would mean that each faction (including BL) will receive:

• Warlord Traits
• Psychic Powers
• Strategems
• Relics
• Individual Tactical Objectives
• A special ability (least certain of this with CSM, but BL definitely will to add to their Doctrines)
• Special Characters (Unlikely for Chaos Space Marines if I'm honest)
• Unique units (e.g. Sword Brethren for BL, again very sceptical that Chaos Space Marines would get anything)

[Captain Incompetence]

I'll believe that when I see it. I'm just going to assume that at best we get 3 pages per legion akin to how Black Legion was handled in Vigilus Ablaze and the Games Workshop PR team is just using the term "supplement" in a very liberal way.

[techsoldaten]

The cover art looks like a concept sketch. I have a bad feeling about this...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The cover art looks like a concept sketch. I have a bad feeling about this...

How so? The PA1 cover nearly identical: Jain Zar standing still holding her spear upright and looking at the "camera."

[Raven1]

When GW said "supplement level support" or whatever in my mind is most certainly a whole list of stuff. Now models certainly not, the new sorcerer (while awesome is it). I dont imagine reworked traits either. Maybe some create your own like eldar/dark eldar. I think it's safe to say that that line is mostly hype.

[Kain Mor]

I don’t know what it is exactly, but when I look at the sorcerer compared to the other heroes that came out for chaos in the last wave he just looks kinda... meh?

 

As for GW claiming “supplement-tier content”... considering how diametrically opposes that claim is to all the French leaks that have a very strong track record, I’m not hopeful. As much as I’d love a reason to bother playing Night Lords again, I’m fairly certain we’re just going to end up with a couple throwaway relics and one or two vaguely useful warlord traits, which won’t even begin to bridge the gap between nuMarines and chaos space marines.

[Prot]

I recall the interview with the designer for the PA Eldar book and they said the same thing. Basically codex level options and rules.

I guess DIY won’t be there as that’s basically Renegades which got a healthy injection of stuff for Vigikus Ablaze.

 

I could see shifting to a different Legion myself if something got interesting there.

 

The Sorc is amazing and the throwback back pack is amazing yet.... I’ll probably end up putting a jump pack on him. I have very little use for a foitbound Sorc lately.

[Panzer]

Supplement can mean a lot of things. We've got tiny supplements and huge ones in the past, so technically even if it turns out to be underwhelming GW didn't lie.

[Slave to Darkness]

Yea could be a 3rd ed level of supplement, about 2 pages of rules and lots of pretty pictures.

[Warsmith Annüss]

At this point, I'll take anything that differentiates NL from, slightly scarier CSM.

[Slave to Darkness]

True, not like things can get worse for us... I hope not anyway. 

[Prot]

At this point, I'll take anything that differentiates NL from, slightly scarier CSM.

I saw Reece of Frontline Gaming say he’s very happy with Night Lords.

 

My interpretation was that all those Legions associated with the icons in the teaser get some new chapter rules. I did notice the absence of a few Legions like Black Legion for instance. I’m not sure what that means for the long run. But I guess my source was right... he kept telling me to hold on til November.

 

I’m just glad some rules seem to be coming down the pipe.

[Archaeinox]

I have a friend absolute in love with Iron Warriors. I hope that supplement-tier content means the Iron Warriors get an update fitting of their fighting style, so that he can finally combine good rules, good modeling, and fluff.

[SyNidus]

 

At this point, I'll take anything that differentiates NL from, slightly scarier CSM.

I saw Reece of Frontline Gaming say he’s very happy with Night Lords.

 

My interpretation was that all those Legions associated with the icons in the teaser get some new chapter rules. I did notice the absence of a few Legions like Black Legion for instance. I’m not sure what that means for the long run. But I guess my source was right... he kept telling me to hold on til November.

 

I’m just glad some rules seem to be coming down the pipe.

 

 

In all fairness I've stopped listening to Reece for awhile now. I know he's happy to finally get recognition and support from GW, but some of his comments in the past just show how biased his assessment of things has become. 

 

But that aside, i'm glad for any rules we'll get. I've accepted the fact that CSM (and NL) are almost GW's red-headed stepchild (with GK being a close contender). I don't think it'd be too optimistic to hope for a couple of stratagems here and there.

 

I just really really hope they make morale actually matter with the NL. I've always had to make my lists around lethality and objective scoring rather than actually using the legion traits.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by SyNidus