Valdor: Birth of the Imperium

[StrangerOrders]

Making my way through the book, about 3/5ths through so far.

 

I am somewhat perplexed. Almost all of the issues I had from the early spoilers folks pointed out aren't addressed, mostly because they don't actually exist. The work seems to be in the broad strokes perfectly inline with Forgeworld. 

 

The rest of the book is marvelous though and I am somewhat reminded of Wraight's usual habit of tricking readers into overlooking the flaws of PoVs if you are not careful to dissociate. 

 

Most tellingly, this is a book that dwells heavily on doubt and fear. This is hardly new to 40k and especially with regards to the Emp's more 'purely monstrous' angle that alot of the fanbase is holding onto for dear life these days. 

 

But thats the brilliant thing about this book really, if you take a step back from it almost every single PoV is almost clinically narcissistic and self-impressed in the extreme.

 

My favourite example is probably the one accusing the Emp of playing god while having cultivated a literal cult to herself.

 

Will post more when finished but so far it is already a marvelous book and I am glad as all hell I didn't let the spoilers turn me off.

[Sandlemad]

So what's up with this book's release? Amazon had the paperback advertised but no ebook, it's not available in any format on the BL website... I don't understand. I knew BL was awful at marketing their books but this is barely acknowledging its existence.

[theSpirea]

So what's up with this book's release? Amazon had the paperback advertised but no ebook, it's not available in any format on the BL website... I don't understand. I knew BL was awful at marketing their books but this is barely acknowledging its existence.

 

For unknown reasons, the official release (hardcover + ebook) was delayed. if I'm not mistaken, it was originally scheduled for 01.02. or 08.02. However, a few bookstores and e-shops received the hardcover copies and were selling them. Now, the official release is 21.03.

 

We can only speculate what was the reason, the only communication I saw from BL was "sorry, we had to reschedule".

[Sandlemad]

 

So what's up with this book's release? Amazon had the paperback advertised but no ebook, it's not available in any format on the BL website... I don't understand. I knew BL was awful at marketing their books but this is barely acknowledging its existence.

 

For unknown reasons, the official release (hardcover + ebook) was delayed. if I'm not mistaken, it was originally scheduled for 01.02. or 08.02. However, a few bookstores and e-shops received the hardcover copies and were selling them. Now, the official release is 21.03.

 

We can only speculate what was the reason, the only communication I saw from BL was "sorry, we had to reschedule".

 

 

Ah, thanks. I was aware of some places selling copies early but didn't know of this larger issue. Bizarre and irritating.

[Scribe]

Picked this up yesterday. Very solid, for all the little things I put Wraight clearly up with ADB in my personal Trinity of the great writers of 30/40K.

 

ADB, Wraight, French.

[b1soul]

I abide by the tetrarchy of Abnett, Wraight, ADB, and French

 

Abnett at the height of his powers probably tops the bunch but the others are more consistent in my view

[Marshal Rohr]

Ignore me, I’m a dummy Edited March 18, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Kelborn]

Wrong topic, Marshal? ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

Wrong topic, Marshal? ;)

Whooooops

[godking]

Just read it.

 

9/10

 

Loved the world building and the POV characters.

 

Ushotan was right he lived something that Valdor will never understand.

 

To bad that there was no mention or a cameo of Arik Taranis.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well I finally remembered this book was available for digital purchase. It feels like I'm super late to the party due to limited ed, into accidental early release, into actual release. But regardless;

 

I really liked the book. I think Chris really nails terra, regardless of the time period. Being able to get first-hand accounts of age of strife terra is super interesting; seeing how basically every type of dystopian trope could be realized during that time period is great.

 

I personally felt like the provost marshal's story line culminating with the confrontation with valdor outside the gate is meant to be appreciated by readers who have recently finished Watchers of the Throne books. You have a character who desperately wants the imperium to have civilians in charge and building a future, with the war machine under their authority and despite the outcome of her plan, we know that's exactly what the imperium becomes in the future; the Lex is inviolate and even the custodians follow its edicts. A large sense of irony comes off this book between that and Astarte's betrayal.

 

The thunder warriors were also great. They have a very real force of personality, distinct from both custodians and space marines. You also understand that it wasn't as simple as "let them die out" when it came to solving their particular issue. The contrast between valdor and the primarch was also fantastic.

 

But, theres the stuff that feels contrived and/or useless. I really don't like that all the legion niches and symbology was basically pre-determined. The IVth thunder legion didn't need to be "iron lords" with siege specialties, it didn't add anything and really takes away from the iron warrior's journey as a legion. Same with the symbols; the blood angels were always going to be the blood angels. Really detracts from the setting

[Sandlemad]

Yeah this is good. Very good. I still don't like the odd reveals that make certain things predestined but they are far outweighed by the fantastic atmosphere this book brings, something that early spoiler/lore reveals just didn't touch on at all. The repeated emphasis in different characters' internal monologues that this is a new era, that it's just coming out of the madness of old night. That 'civilisation' with all its bureaucracy and new power struggles and biases is being restablished on earth. 

 

This is the book for the feel of the unification wars. It's bleak. Characters can already see the inherent problems of the imperium settling in, even those who grew up in rad-scarred wastelands. The astartes, the mechanicum, everything off Terra, they're all conspicuous by their absence. It's just the Emperor, Malcador, the custodes, and a million different small kingdoms/factions/groups being welded into one.

 

We're there at the beginning, or just after. Everything is new, everything is contingent. We can see how things could have taken a slightly different route and we get that frisson of the strange from it (primarch as a simple name for a rank is a good one but there's more). We see how the Lords Civilian became the 'High' Lords, how everyone in these roles were one generation removed, at most, from being refugees or technobarbarian warlords and had to settle in to new formal names and rules and laws. All the big questions become complicated by having so many actors, even what happened to the thunder warriors.

 

Also it's just killing it on a prose level. Structurally the dialogue/interview format works wonderfully. Kandawire is a great character. Again Wraight writes the custodes and the Emperor well. 

 

@SkimaskMohawk: Agreed about the links to Watchers of the Throne. It's clearly there in the imagery but also picking up some of the same or similar themes in a different context: power, accountability, how the lex can be bent or not, the range of possibilities for political action at a time when things seem to be in flux, the weight of institutions and how people can use them or step outside them, the influence of genecrafted soldier castes vs that of mortal or civilian bodies, who speaks with the authority of the Emperor/who speaks for the Emperor. 

 

With Kandawire and

the other coup members, there's definitely a similarity to the Hexarchate in Watchers of the Throne in that they're not chaotic and they're not even revolutionaries, they're fully in line with what they consider the imperial way (though here that imperial way is a cause only decades old for a lot of them). It's your classic Wat Tyler's rebellion scenario in that they're trying to draw the attention of the Emperor to what they see as a problem, and believe he's in agreement with them. It's an ideological struggle and not even a radical one.

This is what Wraight is clearly interested in exploring. I suppose it's not a millions miles from the questions he looked at in Scars. Edited March 31, 2020 by Sandlemad

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

How does this change the timeline for the Unification Wars?

It was said to last centuries. Longer even, than the Great Crusade.

[Scribe]

Skimaskmohawk

 

I think there is something being either foreshadowed or outright stated with the reuse of terms/tropes. Are they trying to establish a truth or reveal, or is Wraight just jumping off from what was CLEARLY established via FW's Black Books? I'm not sure.

 

I agree that it doesnt sit right, with me anyway, that there was this pre-destiny for the Legions. I cancelled my Night Lords heresy project essentially on the spot when they turned the original Terra based Night Lords into essentially the same thing as the Nostramo ones. Both born in darkness, based on primal drives of greed, and from the very beginning, a Legion of Terror.

 

It just seemed forced.

 

That said, perhaps what Wraight is going for here is establishing a basis for that? I ask why is he going so far as to reuse the same term's and tropes? Its clearly intentional, and he said as much on Twitter.

 

The in universe reason I can think of, is the Emperor had a template. He knew what he would want/need, and so said 'this is how my military will function'. When the Thunder Warriors didnt work out, he applied the same template to his Legions. Someone was called a Primarch before? Who cares, they are dead now, and in 200 years, nobody will know the difference, nobody will ask, we will write the history.

 

Essentially its easier to template, and reapply, than to reinvent?

 

Just some speculation.

[calgar101]

I would say yes to that Scribe, the Thunder Warriors both in their creation and organisation were a template or prototype for the Legio Astartes. I personally have no issues with that as it does make sense to me. Also The Emperor had the gift of foresight so it is possible he saw what they would be or could be and steered fate that way?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Skimaskmohawk

 

I think there is something being either foreshadowed or outright stated with the reuse of terms/tropes. Are they trying to establish a truth or reveal, or is Wraight just jumping off from what was CLEARLY established via FW's Black Books? I'm not sure.

 

I agree that it doesnt sit right, with me anyway, that there was this pre-destiny for the Legions. I cancelled my Night Lords heresy project essentially on the spot when they turned the original Terra based Night Lords into essentially the same thing as the Nostramo ones. Both born in darkness, based on primal drives of greed, and from the very beginning, a Legion of Terror.

 

It just seemed forced.

 

That said, perhaps what Wraight is going for here is establishing a basis for that? I ask why is he going so far as to reuse the same term's and tropes? Its clearly intentional, and he said as much on Twitter.

 

The in universe reason I can think of, is the Emperor had a template. He knew what he would want/need, and so said 'this is how my military will function'. When the Thunder Warriors didnt work out, he applied the same template to his Legions. Someone was called a Primarch before? Who cares, they are dead now, and in 200 years, nobody will know the difference, nobody will ask, we will write the history.

 

Essentially its easier to template, and reapply, than to reinvent?

 

Just some speculation.

I can certainly understand that reuse of the terms was inevitable. The emperor is portrayed both here and apparently in Saturnine as grossly impatient for someone who essentially has all the time possible. If the thunder legions were a stopgap, then it makes sense to just recycle the organizational terms and ranks onto the new iteration.

 

But the problem with the specific legion roles and names is that it's been developed too much at this point. Legions have clearly been shaped by circumstance and homeworld culture into what they are by the end of the great crusade; the blood angels iconography is influenced by sanguinius and their Catholic heritage. But now it's not

[Scribe]

It kind of felt like that calgar. I mean I take lessons from my work life.

 

You begin with nothing, but a problem.

You need to craft your solution, sometimes in 'live' action. Valdor (the book) specifically describes this throughout the flashback scenes.

You set up process, you create role's, and tasks and chain's of command or communication.

 

Now extrapolate that, because the universe is a big place.

 

skimaskmohawk:

 

Yeah, I would have to re-read it. Some of it absolutely is tail wagging the dog type stuff, or chicken and egg. I get a feeling if I went over it a few times I would probably come away not liking parts.

 

Some of it however, jumped out and seemed great, like the flaw of the Blood Angels. Its similar to me to the conversation in Master of Mankind re: Angron. 'Why wasnt this fixed'.

 

Well, the person who was to fix it, (in the BA case) got busy, and then they got killed, and...well the Emperor is a busy man. I really really liked that bit.

 

Iconography and such however? I mean it seems strange right? It's again like the Night Lord's of Terra, recruiting from the bottom of Hives that are pertually without light. Oh and they are all the spawn of criminals. Oh and they are savage and gleefully so....like its just too on the nose.

 

I can see how its an issue however. For sure.

[DarkChaplain]

It is doubly strange in hindsight of Saturnine, innit?

 

Considering that the Emperor had no hand in scattering the Primarchs, who would develop their quirks and specializations on worlds that basically catered to those, but were seemingly chosen by Erda, who :cussed about with the Emperor's grand plans, doesn't really gel well with the Emperor already knowing where they'll end up, what iconography they'd be choosing, what cultures they'd adapt etc.

 

On top of that, we got the Emperor as this super impatient reformist, who would create the Primarchs to replace his runaway Perpetuals, intending them to be basically mindless, pre-programmed yes-men to do his bidding, while also sketching out cultural aspects about them and their Legions + predecessors while having no intention of actually having them adopt cultural aspects or be really autonomous beings.

 

And this guy has a big lab working on the Legions and Primarchs, but still splits off work to create Thunder Warriors as a stopgap solution, training them in certain, specialized ways for who knows how long, while intending them to be abandoned / reach their expiration date and purging them anyway? That's not just a waste of resources, it's also a waste of time. It'd have been more sensible to keep them as jack of all trades formations of brutal warriors, like they had been depicted before, without any big structural pseudo-Legion elements. They got the job done without it in the older lore, and it reinforced the notion that the Emperor made the TWs to be a blunt, savage [meta] tool during the Unification Wars, but also one he was all too happy to throw away for something better. A tool that didn't need to be very sophisticated, because they had excellent equipment for what they were, were numerous and powerful. They were never really presented as a strategically advanced fighting force, as far as I'm aware, and the savagery of their conquests has been highlighted a few times.

 

So now I feel like the investment in the Thunder Warriors is kind of overblown and out of place for a temporary stopgap solution that was supposed to hit hard and powerfully, overthrow and conquer through brute force, rather than Legion tactics. While it is not unthinkable that the Emperor was testing measures for the Legions through the Thunder Warriors, it's the matter of scope that bothers me, especially when the Legions were already prepping and training. And now they're not even really around during the Unification Wars themselves anymore, only mopping up.

 

There's a lot of retconning going on in this era and the Heresy in general, a lot of which is happening in regards to ForgeWorld. Frankly, I don't like it, as it throws a lot of previously written material into question and at worst invalidates a bunch of established things and rules on how the setting works, while filling stories with additional plotholes. It's part of the reason why I refuse to read the black books these days.

[Scribe]

It does feel DarkChaplain, like there are attempts being made to reconcile the various source books, and yet...I dont know that it is helping.

 

Further carrying on with the 'we did it before, lets do it again' and the mention of Saturnine.

 

The parallel between Emperor, Erda, Primarchs, and Emperor, Astartes, Legions...is just too much for me. It just seems too obvious of a 'look at this, its the same!' moment that I havent really been able to shake, even after reading the cliff notes spoilers.

 

I'm not sure what to make of it really, because like you, I gave up on the black books, quite some time ago when they leaned in hard on the 'yes the legions were intentionally crafted for a purpose, and no its not the Nurture side of Nature vs Nurture, they are programmed to do this'.

 

It feels like any ambiguity around it has been removed, but then you wonder, are the Black Books even reliable narration? Obviously the Novels are not Word of God.

 

Is the story being crafted to make us believe this is the meta arc of the tale and that its all by design? Some of the Malcador stuff would make that seem...probable, but then the whole story is meaningless until the grand reveal is made obvious.

 

I dont know, a bit of me wishes the whole thing ended at Master of Mankind right now. I want some of the canon left intact, and when I take a step back from some of these recent additions, I'm not sure thats even possible, and 'everything we have been told is a lie.'

 

I'm not sure I'm in it for that.

[Kelborn]

Odd question but would you guys recommend to read Valdor or Lion?

Pal of mine got the Lions LE and of course, he recommends the latter.

 

Given that I love Wraights Valdor and Custodes, I was thinking to start with Valdor and then jump into the Tales of Terra as I call them: Vaults of Terra and Emperor's Legion.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The thing is, that in some cases you have legions that are reformed by their primarch; the blood angels and space wolves acted pretty differently beforehand.

 

At least with Valdor, the book has a serious enough flaw in terms of contradiction (astartes helping with terran unity vs not) that the stuff I don't like can easily be ignored. Basically the world building can be appreciated without the rest detracting from it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It is doubly strange in hindsight of Saturnine, innit?

 

Considering that the Emperor had no hand in scattering the Primarchs, who would develop their quirks and specializations on worlds that basically catered to those, but were seemingly chosen by Erda, who about with the Emperor's grand plans, doesn't really gel well with the Emperor already knowing where they'll end up, what iconography they'd be choosing, what cultures they'd adapt etc.

 

On top of that, we got the Emperor as this super impatient reformist, who would create the Primarchs to replace his runaway Perpetuals, intending them to be basically mindless, pre-programmed yes-men to do his bidding, while also sketching out cultural aspects about them and their Legions + predecessors while having no intention of actually having them adopt cultural aspects or be really autonomous beings.

 

And this guy has a big lab working on the Legions and Primarchs, but still splits off work to create Thunder Warriors as a stopgap solution, training them in certain, specialized ways for who knows how long, while intending them to be abandoned / reach their expiration date and purging them anyway? That's not just a waste of resources, it's also a waste of time. It'd have been more sensible to keep them as jack of all trades formations of brutal warriors, like they had been depicted before, without any big structural pseudo-Legion elements. They got the job done without it in the older lore, and it reinforced the notion that the Emperor made the TWs to be a blunt, savage [meta] tool during the Unification Wars, but also one he was all too happy to throw away for something better. A tool that didn't need to be very sophisticated, because they had excellent equipment for what they were, were numerous and powerful. They were never really presented as a strategically advanced fighting force, as far as I'm aware, and the savagery of their conquests has been highlighted a few times.

 

So now I feel like the investment in the Thunder Warriors is kind of overblown and out of place for a temporary stopgap solution that was supposed to hit hard and powerfully, overthrow and conquer through brute force, rather than Legion tactics. While it is not unthinkable that the Emperor was testing measures for the Legions through the Thunder Warriors, it's the matter of scope that bothers me, especially when the Legions were already prepping and training. And now they're not even really around during the Unification Wars themselves anymore, only mopping up.

 

There's a lot of retconning going on in this era and the Heresy in general, a lot of which is happening in regards to ForgeWorld. Frankly, I don't like it, as it throws a lot of previously written material into question and at worst invalidates a bunch of established things and rules on how the setting works, while filling stories with additional plotholes. It's part of the reason why I refuse to read the black books these days.

 

To be fair, the knowledge we have of the Emperor being a super-impatient reformist is only from a single character who is a) vulnerable to the same perception-changing effects of the Emperor we see in Master of Mankind, and b) spent many, many years in the presence of the figure who is almost certainly the most powerful telepath that the galaxy has ever known. What good are memories regarding someone who can literally reshape them at his whim? What if the scattering was all part of the Emperors war-plan, but knew that Erda would most likely oppose their scattering if he knew he planned for it, so made her think he wanted them kept, and planted the plot to scatter them, unknowingly for him, in her mind? She even admits that he never tried to punish her for it, he just got angry, which could have just been for show.

[mc warhammer]

i think if they lean into what it's like to think like the emperor, a guy who literally sees in 4 dimensions, all this stuff might make more sense. what seems like linear preconceived notions (thunderwariors to terran astartes to found planet astartes) from the outside would just be part of his non linear thought patterns

 

but from the way they've depicted curze and sanguinnius, this doesn't seem likely

[Scribe]

@lord_caerolion - I laughed (my son asked what I'm laughing at) but you are completely right.

 

It makes the story very difficult to take at face value at that point. :D

[DarkChaplain]

Yeah, the whole "It was my idea all along! Psych!" angle just... does nothing positive for me at this point anymore. In a sense, it's the most cop-out explanation the authors can go for right now. It's a stupid rabbit hole that you can never get out of.

 

A lot of these things from Valdor and, yeah, Saturnine and ForgeWorld make for a pretty clear example of why I never wanted to see the timeline moved to the Unification era to begin with.