Valdor: Birth of the Imperium

[b1soul]

Those emblems are not just symbols of the legions but also symbols of the primaries. The emperor would know the essence of each primarch.

[Marshal Rohr]

The White Scars symbol is Chogoran, not Imperial.

[b1soul]

I am thinking Chris must have something in mind. This has to be deliberate and not a slip-up.

 

The Emperor might have known more about the primarch destination worlds than he lets on.

 

Lightning is synonymous with swiftness on Earth, so it's not limited to Chogorian culture.

 

But this does seem to imply that most if not all the primarchs accepted emblems from the Emperor. It does require some explanation.

[Marshal Rohr]

The White Scars legion symbol is specifically mentioned to be Chogoran in Path of Heaven.

[Sandlemad]

I get the concern because BL has occasionally thrown away the strong and fascinating sense we get from the FW books that the legions' identities were not utterly set in stone and were essentially contingent despite some broad plans for their 'roles'... but the forethought thing more or less works for me.

It doesn't imply that the emperor had predetermined every detail or that, say, the IXth legion would be specifically this kind of legion in every particular, just that he had seen enough (hazy and indeterminate though it might be) to slap their eventual future icon on a casket. Malevolence does hint that he had some vague intimation of a future in which the IXth would be redeemed and made into something better than they were and there's other examples; his opaque statement about the Salamanders' taking of the Tempest Galleries for example. I don't think taken on its own this runs counter to Wraight's usual broadening and deepening of legion identity.

It wouldn't even be the first time he has used the image of a vision of the future that shows legion symbols unknown to the narrator, it appears with Yesugei's vision in Brotherhood of the Storm.

By contrast the bit about the different legions of thunder warriors having simplistic specialisms that matched those of the later astartes legions - and worse, similar names in the case of the IVth - is a lot more reductive, flattening and irritating. Not a fan of that.

[DarkChaplain]

My big question is why he'd bother decorating with insignia when the Legions pre-Primarchs still had different names and iconography to begin with, and the Primarchs themselves later chose to rename them. If the Emperor knew Angron would be leading the World Eaters, why bother with War Hounds insignia, for example. The foresight also becomes problematic with Angron in particular - if he knew where his sons would end up, or deliberately placed them there, and how they would reshape their Legions, he should never have been so shocked about Angron's condition. He had to actively search for the Primarchs, as has been presented on various occasions.

 

Every instance of the Emperor being shown as possessing great foresight has been muddled by him not exactly knowing which future would occur among the many he saw. He got a complete blank on the outcome of the Heresy, he did not see the Webway crumble, but he had inklings about the Heresy being a possibility. For him to now be certain enough to recreate the Legions' future insignia centuries before their Primarchs are even found just strikes me as stupid. It adds nothing to the narrative beyond confusion and a wink at the camera.

The Emperor had roles and names enough for his sons, like how he bestowed Konrad Curze upon the Night Haunter. There's Magnus, who he was in active communion with, long before he was found.

 

But this is simply reaching too far and reads like an author who didn't know when to stop with attempts at fanservice and "wouldn't you know" moments. It doesn't open new avenues for questions, it contradicts what answers we already had, while making a lot of things a lot less interesting than they were before they were covered in this manner. It may be an exceptional book in its own right, but as part of the wider cosmos, it sounds like nothing short of a nightmare.

 

....people got super upset about the Malcador audio drama Laurie Goulding wrote a few years back, and that was presented deliberately misleading to calm a dying person and present a veneer of control over the Heresy. This, to me, seems far, far worse in its implications right now, but I suppose it'll get a pass in the long run because it's written by Wraight.

[Marshal Loss]

My big question is why he'd bother decorating with insignia when the Legions pre-Primarchs still had different names and iconography to begin with, and the Primarchs themselves later chose to rename them. If the Emperor knew Angron would be leading the World Eaters, why bother with War Hounds insignia, for example. The foresight also becomes problematic with Angron in particular - if he knew where his sons would end up, or deliberately placed them there, and how they would reshape their Legions, he should never have been so shocked about Angron's condition. He had to actively search for the Primarchs, as has been presented on various occasions.

 

Even at the most basic level people would be like "hey look at the Legions changing their iconography to match the earlier thunder blokes of the same number, what an incredible coincidence", especially if early Astartes fought against them. It is something that would undoubtedly be picked up on in-universe. If this had been added from the beginning it could have been more fuel on the "the Emperor always planned to replace us" fire, which may have been the intention, but as a late addition feels false & tacked on.

 

If the Thunder Warriors shared the iconography/organisation of the Legions before their Primarchs arrived and changed everything, that would make much more sense to me/be significantly less jarring.

 

e: spelling

Edited November 12, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[DukeLeto69]

I was really looking forward to this book because, to date, Chris Wraight has never been less than excellent. However, reading this thread is dampening my enthusiasm. I will buy it and I will decide for myself and, being honest, my memory isn't good enough to pick out all the lore differences I may have read in the FW black books anyway. However, it does seem strange for an author as good as CW to apparently drop the ball a bit here?

 

As my name would suggest I am a big Dune fan as well and as such really enjoy/like the whole "future has many multiple possibilities, nothing is set but with exceptional careful guidance we can steer towards an outcome I want" type thing (and the dangers inherrent in that). So the big E being prescient actually sits well with me, even if he made a few errors along the way!

[Fire Golem]

I was really looking forward to this book because, to date, Chris Wraight has never been less than excellent. However, reading this thread is dampening my enthusiasm. I will buy it and I will decide for myself and, being honest, my memory isn't good enough to pick out all the lore differences I may have read in the FW black books anyway. However, it does seem strange for an author as good as CW to apparently drop the ball a bit here?

 

As my name would suggest I am a big Dune fan as well and as such really enjoy/like the whole "future has many multiple possibilities, nothing is set but with exceptional careful guidance we can steer towards an outcome I want" type thing (and the dangers inherrent in that). So the big E being prescient actually sits well with me, even if he made a few errors along the way!

It would be editing that dropped the ball at least as much. Part of their job is ensuring continuity. 

[bluntblade]

It all sounds rather peculiar. And rather flies in the face of what Wraight said he wanted to do in terms of charting new territory.

[Angel_of_Blood]

I still don't see how everyone see's this as the end of the FW lore and Blighs work. I've read them all, and I just don't see the Thunder Warriors as being this huge influence that retconning therm changes everything about the Legions.

 

The Vth can still be the outriders. The IXth can still be the murderous revetments they were across the battlefields of Terra. The XVIth can still be what they were. Once again, the book does not say the conquest of Terra is over, far from it in fact. Pretty much all the lore from the black books is still able to be there, just remove the TW's from it, they really aren't that crucial. Again, I just don't see the issues, it's very minor to me and not this huge injustice and lore breaking change others seem to believe.

 

The Legion symbols is a weird one yes. But as others have said, it's long been theorised that the Emperor knew what was going to happen, or had a rough idea of what would go down and that he also deliberately engineered the different Primarchs for the roles they would perform and even the planets they would land on. I mean come on, Magnus is a super psyker, lands on Prospero. Russ pretty much has wolf DNA encoded into him, ends up on Fenris. Corax looks like he's never seen the sun, as does Curze, both end up in a mine or a planet with naff all sun respectively. Even if the Emperor didn't know everything that was going to happen, it's got to be beyond doubt that he had seen a good deal of what was to come or what could be. So legion symbols being known isn't a gigantic issue for me. As to why he didn't bother changing the War Hounds symbol for example, perhaps it's because he needed them to reach that path themselves. Let them set off as the War Hounds, knowing they'd become the World Eaters eventually.

 

So yeah, the second point I get peoples discomfort with, but the first is solidly a non-issue imo.

[Kelborn]

Ok, I seem to have lost the track of how much of a spoiler this discussion is currently based upon.

 

Keep in mind that it's released as a LE with only a handfull having obtained it.

 

I'm somewhat surprised to see that kind of feedback, though I'll grap it one day to see for myself.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I still don't see how everyone see's this as the end of the FW lore and Blighs work. I've read them all, and I just don't see the Thunder Warriors as being this huge influence that retconning therm changes everything about the Legions.

 

The Vth can still be the outriders. The IXth can still be the murderous revetments they were across the battlefields of Terra. The XVIth can still be what they were. Once again, the book does not say the conquest of Terra is over, far from it in fact. Pretty much all the lore from the black books is still able to be there, just remove the TW's from it, they really aren't that crucial. Again, I just don't see the issues, it's very minor to me and not this huge injustice and lore breaking change others seem to believe.

 

The Legion symbols is a weird one yes. But as others have said, it's long been theorised that the Emperor knew what was going to happen, or had a rough idea of what would go down and that he also deliberately engineered the different Primarchs for the roles they would perform and even the planets they would land on. I mean come on, Magnus is a super psyker, lands on Prospero. Russ pretty much has wolf DNA encoded into him, ends up on Fenris. Corax looks like he's never seen the sun, as does Curze, both end up in a mine or a planet with naff all sun respectively. Even if the Emperor didn't know everything that was going to happen, it's got to be beyond doubt that he had seen a good deal of what was to come or what could be. So legion symbols being known isn't a gigantic issue for me. As to why he didn't bother changing the War Hounds symbol for example, perhaps it's because he needed them to reach that path themselves. Let them set off as the War Hounds, knowing they'd become the World Eaters eventually.

 

So yeah, the second point I get peoples discomfort with, but the first is solidly a non-issue imo.

 

But then why was he so surprised when he found Angron, when literally anything he saw about him should have tipped him off to "huh, this one turns into a rage-filled berserker that kills innocents just as much as enemies"?

 

Eh, I'll just hope that the actual story fills this in satisfactorily.

[aa.logan]

Could the Chaos Gods not have transported the Primarchs to ironically apt worlds?

 

Does the fact that only *some* legions sigils are described suggest that only *some* of the legions kept their intended iconography?

 

Isn’t the White Scars’ culture ultimately derived from Terran culture, or is what we read a best translation? Can the rank of Khan and so much more have randomly evolved in isolation?

 

Perteabo *knew* his name for as long as he was conscious. Could all names, iconography and tropes be intrinsic to the gene seed of each legion?

 

I’ve read the book and I didn’t find fault with retcons or inconsistencies, but I can appreciate that others who have read it might. From my reading of it, I’d say an important theme of the book is the cyclical nature of the Emperor and therefore the Imperium, which Chris confirmed at the Weekender. It makes complete sense to me that the Emperor would use the Thunder Warriors as a test run for the Astartes and therefore continue successful ideas; just because the IV Thunder Warrior legion we’re expert siege breakers, it doesn’t automatically follow that the XX Thunder Warrior Legion were all about covert ops and espionage; he evidently got rid of aspects of them that didn’t work and honed his craft in the creation of what follows.

[MegaVolt87]

FW did a good job with the legions pre-primarchs + on Terra. Sounds like that's the major complaint that changing. Just waiting for the Ok boomer memes this book will generate with the rectons. Was it really that hard to retain that existing, well received good stuff while expanding Valdor? 

[b1soul]

@ Marshall Rohr

 

Yes, but a lightning strike emblem isn't necessarily the Chogorian lightning strike emblem.

[mc warhammer]

 

I still don't see how everyone see's this as the end of the FW lore and Blighs work. I've read them all, and I just don't see the Thunder Warriors as being this huge influence that retconning therm changes everything about the Legions.

 

The Vth can still be the outriders. The IXth can still be the murderous revetments they were across the battlefields of Terra. The XVIth can still be what they were. Once again, the book does not say the conquest of Terra is over, far from it in fact. Pretty much all the lore from the black books is still able to be there, just remove the TW's from it, they really aren't that crucial. Again, I just don't see the issues, it's very minor to me and not this huge injustice and lore breaking change others seem to believe.

 

The Legion symbols is a weird one yes. But as others have said, it's long been theorised that the Emperor knew what was going to happen, or had a rough idea of what would go down and that he also deliberately engineered the different Primarchs for the roles they would perform and even the planets they would land on. I mean come on, Magnus is a super psyker, lands on Prospero. Russ pretty much has wolf DNA encoded into him, ends up on Fenris. Corax looks like he's never seen the sun, as does Curze, both end up in a mine or a planet with naff all sun respectively. Even if the Emperor didn't know everything that was going to happen, it's got to be beyond doubt that he had seen a good deal of what was to come or what could be. So legion symbols being known isn't a gigantic issue for me. As to why he didn't bother changing the War Hounds symbol for example, perhaps it's because he needed them to reach that path themselves. Let them set off as the War Hounds, knowing they'd become the World Eaters eventually.

 

So yeah, the second point I get peoples discomfort with, but the first is solidly a non-issue imo.

 

But then why was he so surprised when he found Angron, when literally anything he saw about him should have tipped him off to "huh, this one turns into a rage-filled berserker that kills innocents just as much as enemies"?

 

Eh, I'll just hope that the actual story fills this in satisfactorily.

 

 

 

emps might have been expecting some damage (even hoped for it) to angron, but not for him to be completely broken.

 

his foresight isn't perfect, right? 

@ Marshall Rohr

 

Yes, but a lightning strike emblem isn't necessarily the Chogorian lightning strike emblem.

 

shazam is obviously chogorian

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think the better question really is "does this add anything beyond a knowing wink and nudge to the readers", and the answer to that is "no", at least as I currently see it.

[Marshal Rohr]

@ Marshall Rohr

 

Yes, but a lightning strike emblem isn't necessarily the Chogorian lightning strike emblem.

You’re probably right. It’s very likely all of the other symbols were spot on but this was a different lightning bolt.

[Angel_of_Blood]

 

I still don't see how everyone see's this as the end of the FW lore and Blighs work. I've read them all, and I just don't see the Thunder Warriors as being this huge influence that retconning therm changes everything about the Legions.

 

The Vth can still be the outriders. The IXth can still be the murderous revetments they were across the battlefields of Terra. The XVIth can still be what they were. Once again, the book does not say the conquest of Terra is over, far from it in fact. Pretty much all the lore from the black books is still able to be there, just remove the TW's from it, they really aren't that crucial. Again, I just don't see the issues, it's very minor to me and not this huge injustice and lore breaking change others seem to believe.

 

The Legion symbols is a weird one yes. But as others have said, it's long been theorised that the Emperor knew what was going to happen, or had a rough idea of what would go down and that he also deliberately engineered the different Primarchs for the roles they would perform and even the planets they would land on. I mean come on, Magnus is a super psyker, lands on Prospero. Russ pretty much has wolf DNA encoded into him, ends up on Fenris. Corax looks like he's never seen the sun, as does Curze, both end up in a mine or a planet with naff all sun respectively. Even if the Emperor didn't know everything that was going to happen, it's got to be beyond doubt that he had seen a good deal of what was to come or what could be. So legion symbols being known isn't a gigantic issue for me. As to why he didn't bother changing the War Hounds symbol for example, perhaps it's because he needed them to reach that path themselves. Let them set off as the War Hounds, knowing they'd become the World Eaters eventually.

 

So yeah, the second point I get peoples discomfort with, but the first is solidly a non-issue imo.

 

But then why was he so surprised when he found Angron, when literally anything he saw about him should have tipped him off to "huh, this one turns into a rage-filled berserker that kills innocents just as much as enemies"?

 

Eh, I'll just hope that the actual story fills this in satisfactorily.

 

 

Where is it really said that he was surprised by what he found with Angron. If anything, him knowing and wanting Angron and his legion to become as they were, lends more to why he never bothered to save Angrons fellow slaves. To do that would likely have completely changed how loyal Angron was and what he did to his legion. 

[b1soul]

@ Marshall Rohr

 

Frankly, we don't know if any of the emblems are spot on. They're probably all stylised quite differently from what the legions ultimately adopted.

 

Can we day a "raptor" symbol is exactly what the RG adopted later? That's awfully vague.

 

I'm not crazy about this idea, but it doesn't break the setting.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don’t think it breaks the setting either I just think ‘all the legion racks had very similar symbols to their final iteration except they weren’t exactly the same’ is a weird hill to die on.

[SkimaskMohawk]

For all the justifications on the emperor's ability to see the future: it's incredibly hard to to obtain the specific future you see, by his own statement. If he could have have foreseen the 20 different legions history up until the point where they change their symbol, then that creates a ton of problems narratively.

[b1soul]

p167: At regular intervals the colossal racks were scored with larger sigils engraved in gold -
a raptor,
a lightning strike,
a drop of blood surmounted by stylised wings,
a wolf's head.

That's only a handful of sigils. Are we sure all twenty sigils are there?

Even if they are, it doesn't necessarily tie to foresight. These could be the arcane "soul emblems" representing each primarch.

Maybe some primarchs were presented with and adopted further stylized versions of these emblems as their legion heraldry, maybe some primarchs instinctively chose heraldry similar to their "soul emblems" due to their inherent nature, e.g. Russ for example. This is only setting breaking if you want it to be.

[b1soul]

EDIT: Of course, the Empire may have simply known where each primarch pod would land. And perhaps these sigils represent those planets?