Valdor: Birth of the Imperium

[MegaVolt87]

Wasn't the point of the primarch scattering the chaos gods punishing the Emperor for defaulting on his deals? His trip to Molech for greater power seems to also ready himself for the inevitable civil war as chaos influenced all 20 primarchs. Erasing the memories of everyone there so they could not match or exceed his power. Suprised Lorgar didn't go to Molech later to boost up as well.

[bluntblade]

Depends on whether you buy into Molech or rationalise that whole mess as a grand illusion.

[Moonreaper666]

Depends on whether you buy into Molech or rationalise that whole mess as a grand illusion.

What is fully true is that the Chaos Gods were powerful enough to scatter the Primarchs in front of the God-Emperor's face. He knew that he could not stop the Gods from doing it

 

He also knew about the Heresy and his death. He can see parts of the future but can't avoid it

[DarkChaplain]

Yeah, that's definitely not "fully true". Even his own death is a likelihood, not a certainty. He's aware of how things stand and may turn out, but he's never had a firm grasp of what was actually the definitive future that would come to pass.

 

Once again you're scraping all nuance off the setting, story and characters and come away with observably false conclusions. At this point I have to wonder if you're doing it on purpose, or really believe you know the lore better than the people conceiving and sharing it with us.

[Moonreaper666]

Yeah, that's definitely not "fully true". Even his own death is a likelihood, not a certainty. He's aware of how things stand and may turn out, but he's never had a firm grasp of what was actually the definitive future that would come to pass.

 

Once again you're scraping all nuance off the setting, story and characters and come away with observably false conclusions. At this point I have to wonder if you're doing it on purpose, or really believe you know the lore better than the people conceiving and sharing it with us.

Facts:

 

-The Emperor did nothing when the Chaos Gods scatter the Primarchs

 

-In Outcast Dead, a Psyker straight up told the Emperor he would die. The Emperor says he knows

 

-In the Board is Set, the Emperor states to Malcador that not only did he predict the Heresy, he planned for it. The cruel way he treated some of the Primarchs was part of that plan. The only thing he did not know was which Primarchs would turn to Chaos

 

I believe I do know better. Since I wouldn't be stupid enough to retcon Maximus Thane into a Horus Heresy in Lost and the Damned

[Prot]

Wow this conversation has gone into a deep and wild area.

 

First off I don’t have the book. The only guy I know who got it lives in the UK (I’m in Canada) and he says he loves it.

 

So I’m a ways off from getting to read it but what I want to know is if the scene at Molech from the Horus Heresy novel (Vengeful Spirit???) is clarified here. The scene where Horus goes through some portal for thousands of years and comes back and it’s only been hours... I remember being super frustrated at the fact the Primarchs remember being there before but none could remember what happened.

 

I’m curious as I read some of your comments if the plot is more interesting than the characters? It seems like a lot of talk is about key events in Imperium history and less about Valdor.

[StrangerOrders]

 

Yeah, that's definitely not "fully true". Even his own death is a likelihood, not a certainty. He's aware of how things stand and may turn out, but he's never had a firm grasp of what was actually the definitive future that would come to pass.

 

Once again you're scraping all nuance off the setting, story and characters and come away with observably false conclusions. At this point I have to wonder if you're doing it on purpose, or really believe you know the lore better than the people conceiving and sharing it with us.

Facts:

 

-The Emperor did nothing when the Chaos Gods scatter the Primarchs

 

-In Outcast Dead, a Psyker straight up told the Emperor he would die. The Emperor says he knows

 

-In the Board is Set, the Emperor states to Malcador that not only did he predict the Heresy, he planned for it. The cruel way he treated some of the Primarchs was part of that plan. The only thing he did not know was which Primarchs would turn to Chaos

 

I believe I do know better. Since I wouldn't be stupid enough to retcon Maximus Thane into a Horus Heresy in Lost and the Damned

 

Well, Thane has actually been in the Heresy for a while. Since Duty Awaits some 2 years ago. We also know that the Fists are very fond of recycling names, usually to honor an identity (PoD showing this happen twice with the same name over the span of two centuries give or take).

 

It is also curious use of a logical fallacy to say your argument is true based on lore, but then claim the invalidation of that source based on your preference (All are sourced to BL). Cherry-picking is sort of mandatory in 40k (and alot of us are masters of it, from some of the creative sourcing I have seen over the years), but it is disingenuous to try to discredit BL while using BL to back your argument.

 

I mean, you can also cite the fact that the Emp was already powerful enough to ROLF-stomp a 10k year old psyker in the Middle Ages and that Ol met him in that period and deemed him powerful. Those are based on Athame and Unmarked in the Mark of Calth anthology.

 

There is also the fact that he was powerful enough to defeat a major C'tan Shard (no amount of wounds has made overpowering one easy for anyone in the lore that I know of) around the turn of the 1st Millennium. Per Mechanicum. 

 

But you can cite Vengeful Spirit and the fact that the Perpetual there believed that he was pretty normal before Molech. Which is directly at odds with those three.

 

And then you have the Dark Age Weapon claims of MoM, which contradict all three. 

 

You are also incorporating a unique reading of the Board is Set, since he never speaks directly on any subject of abuse. The best you can throw at it is to say that what he did Fulgrim by switching him with Jaghatai (which already relies on fanon to interpret what seems like clear language). 

 

Then all of the above are thrown off by ADB stating himself that literally anything about the Emp is next to impossible to take at face value.

 

My own personal view from the lore and what we know? The Emp showcases the constant need for self-justification that underpins no small number of powerful and successful people, this includes Malcador's desire to have his own pragmatism and brutality mirrored in his master and the Custodes pretty poorly-hidden need to justify what seems like a titanic superiority-complex. That most of the Primarchs can't muster anything close to gratitude for essentially being the ultimate trust-fund kids easily fits their constant need to outsource blame onto him.

 

Trouble with my view is that it is based on a specific reading of events. I do not generally go around saying other views are invalid or that I am somehow superior to the actual lore, because that is pretty farcical in this setting. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by StrangerOrders

[Lord_Caerolion]

You got any proof that the Emperor "did nothing" when the Primarchs were scattered? We've been shown so many contradictory portrayals of the Primarchs scattering that it's not even certain that Chaos was the force doing the scattering, and not the Emperor himself.

I also take everything in Outcast Dead with a grain of salt, as it also showed the Burning of Prospero as happening long after the Istvaan Massacres, therefore relying on Russ listening to a known traitor Horus when deciding to change how he brings Magnus in.

[Fire Golem]

Wow this conversation has gone into a deep and wild area.

 

First off I don’t have the book. The only guy I know who got it lives in the UK (I’m in Canada) and he says he loves it.

 

So I’m a ways off from getting to read it but what I want to know is if the scene at Molech from the Horus Heresy novel (Vengeful Spirit???) is clarified here. The scene where Horus goes through some portal for thousands of years and comes back and it’s only been hours... I remember being super frustrated at the fact the Primarchs remember being there before but none could remember what happened.

 

I’m curious as I read some of your comments if the plot is more interesting than the characters? It seems like a lot of talk is about key events in Imperium history and less about Valdor.

I really don’t mean this in a snarky way or anything, but I think it’s fair to say that the people who read it were more focussed on Valdor and his character in the novel, and people who haven’t were focussing more on the plot (and the inconstancies). Valdor was my favourite part of the novel, certainly.

[calgar101]

One question, do we get to see how Valdor ranks amongs the Imperiums elite warriors? I know its a divisive subject but I'd like to know how powerful he really was?

[aa.logan]

He doesn’t square up against the foetus of Sigismund and challenge him to a duel, no.

 

He does some fighting, but it isn’t really the focus of the book.

[calgar101]

That is fair enough, was just wondering if we could finally put to bed the idea he could beat a Primarch

[b1soul]

I think Valdor to a primarch would be like Sigismund to a custodes tribune...or perhaps a custodes tribune to Valdor himself 

 

Valdor could make a primarch sweat and maybe win a bout or two, but most of the time, he's going down. When things get real, I really can't see Valdor beating or even stalemating the likes of Angron, Sanguinius, Horus,  Lion, Khan, Fulgrim, Curze, Russ, Corax, you name it. Though I think he might beat Lorgar when he was a weak and depressed. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by b1soul

[Kelborn]

Please not another who could take on who talk... ;)

[Angel_of_Blood]

He kills the Thunder Warrior primarch pretty easily, and we know the TW's are very, very good fighters and the TW primarchs were probably the best among them.

[Fire Golem]

He kills the Thunder Warrior primarch pretty easily, and we know the TW's are very, very good fighters and the TW primarchs were probably the best among them.

so Valdor can beat Primarchs confirmed! :P

[b1soul]

I think the best Custodian ever should be able to beat one of the best Thunder Warriors. The best Thunder Warrior is probably Arik Taranis, whom Valor has never faced (I think)

[calgar101]

Thanks for the replied to my question. Not trying to start a "My dad is better than your dad argument". I'm interested in his capabilities especially since he had a spear crafted for him by the Emperor and sought out by him too.

[TheTrans]

Any indepth mention of TW arms and armour? 

[b1soul]

Guys, regarding Astartes/Dark Angels and Thunder Warriors, I believe that Forge World may have contradicted itself (Inferno versus earlier Black Books)...and Wraight is actually consistent with Inferno. 

 

From Forge World's Inferno: 

 

Decades later still from this infamous battle, it would be now the Custodian Guard in their hundreds, in a form akin to their most modern aspect, who would be charged with leading the cull of those same Thunder Warriors who had once serve the Emperor and who had then rebelled in the wake of their forcible disbandment and internment. Only this time the Custodian Guard would be accompanied by the new gene-crafted warriors meant to replace the Thunder Warrior; the first few thousand prototype Space Marines, most of whom would go on to form the nascent 1st Legiones Astartes latterly knows as the Dark Angels.

 

If I implied or stated anywhere that Chris ignored the Forge World lore and did his own thing, I should probably retract that and issue an apology. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by b1soul

[Sviox]

Guys, regarding Astartes/Dark Angels and Thunder Warriors, I believe that Forge World may have contradicted itself (Inferno versus earlier Black Books)...and Wraight is actually consistent with Inferno. 

 

From Forge World's Inferno: 

 

Decades later still from this infamous battle, it would be now the Custodian Guard in their hundreds, in a form akin to their most modern aspect, who would be charged with leading the cull of those same Thunder Warriors who had once serve the Emperor and who had then rebelled in the wake of their forcible disbandment and internment. Only this time the Custodian Guard would be accompanied by the new gene-crafted warriors meant to replace the Thunder Warrior; the first few thousand prototype Space Marines, most of whom would go on to form the nascent 1st Legiones Astartes latterly knows as the Dark Angels.

 

If I implied or stated anywhere that Chris ignored the Forge World lore and did his own thing, I should probably retract that and issue an apology. 

 

One could claim that the

culling includes both what happened at the mount Ararat AND the subsequent destruction of the rebellious elements that were supposed to draw out the remaining thunder warriors

[Sviox]

Also, regarding scattering of the primarchs, I think it was originally just a shortsighted fiction that has since been cemented firmly into the canon. What really happened doesn't really matter - maybe it was a plan by the Emperor, part of the agreement between the Emperor and the Chaos gods or an attempt to corrupt the primarchs and destroy the Emperor from the inside.

[Sandlemad]

Guys, regarding Astartes/Dark Angels and Thunder Warriors, I believe that Forge World may have contradicted itself (Inferno versus earlier Black Books)...and Wraight is actually consistent with Inferno. 

 

From Forge World's Inferno: 

 

Decades later still from this infamous battle, it would be now the Custodian Guard in their hundreds, in a form akin to their most modern aspect, who would be charged with leading the cull of those same Thunder Warriors who had once serve the Emperor and who had then rebelled in the wake of their forcible disbandment and internment. Only this time the Custodian Guard would be accompanied by the new gene-crafted warriors meant to replace the Thunder Warrior; the first few thousand prototype Space Marines, most of whom would go on to form the nascent 1st Legiones Astartes latterly knows as the Dark Angels.

 

If I implied or stated anywhere that Chris ignored the Forge World lore and did his own thing, I should probably retract that and issue an apology. 

 

There's something ther but I think it's more a case of FW contradicting itself between Inferno and Malevolence. Malevolence states that

 

"the first companies of the other proto-Legions were blooded in Albia, Yndonesia and Franc alongside the massed ranks of the Thunder Warriors" and "some of the earliest Legions, such as the XVI Legion, were committed to the frontlines of the initial conquest alongside the Emperor's Thunder Warriors".

 

I'm struggling to find a way to timeline these up sensibly to be honest. I don't think they do, really. One says that

 

the first few thousand marines wiped out the thunder warriors alongside the custodians, the other says that many of the later legions' first batches fought alongside the massed ranks of the thunder warriors, presumably before this purge.

 

In-universe sources and so forth but the premise of the black books is that they're written by the same author, 'AK'. I guess this then moves the issue to that of an in-universe author presenting different facts in different books written at different times. And that's not unreasonable, historians do that (though in an ideal world where this was planned in the black books, a little signpost marking the change would be nice).

 

These are still subjective texts, something something new evidence comes to light in the course of AK's research, whatever. This is the only way you can really take these works without driving yourself mad in a twisted parody of scriptural exegesis.

 

But out-of-universe this isn't so much a discrepancy between BL (Wraight) and FW writers (which is discussed well by Marshal Loss in the the siege thread here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358940-the-siege-of-terra-the-first-wall/?p=5436415), but between Alan Bligh/the FW writers team that worked on Inferno and the FW writers team that worked on Malevolence. Wraight was working to Inferno and presumably other associated intra-BL discussions. However we want to take it as background, and whether or not this was a deliberate change, I think that's pretty clearly what happened. The stuff in Malevolence came as a bit of a surprise, so Valdor is more in line with the background since... Master of Mankind, at least. Maybe Outcast Dead?

 

Personally I liked the idea from a hobby blog on B&C whose name and author I can't recall that had the last few dying TW serving as instructors for the first wave of astartes, like the hardbitten bounty hunter weirdos in Star Wars who trained up the clone army. That brief period of overlap between the TW and astartes has some narrative potential, probably more than the primaris/firstborn 'transition'.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Sandlemad

[Alpharius902]

Wasn’t that basically confirmed in Ferrus’ novel? Akurduana mentions being trained by an “old grizzled Thunder Warrior”

[StrangerOrders]

Wasn’t that basically confirmed in Ferrus’ novel? Akurduana mentions being trained by an “old grizzled Thunder Warrior”

Yap.

 

Man, for all the flaws in that novel, I loved Akurduana. Its kinda charming how the EC are a bad joke in the main HH books but series like the Primarchs and Fabius books actually allow them to be something other than one-dimensional stereotypes (Wright's effort in Path of Heaven being the one moment where they were at least allowed to be competent one-dimensional stereotypes).

 

Kinda wish characters like Abdemon and Akurduana had featured in books like Fulgrim (although I have alot of reservations about McNeil being able to write them well, given what he did to the EC).

 

 

 

Guys, regarding Astartes/Dark Angels and Thunder Warriors, I believe that Forge World may have contradicted itself (Inferno versus earlier Black Books)...and Wraight is actually consistent with Inferno. 

The trouble is that this that Inferno is generally seen as one of the lazier and most error-filled books among the Black Books, which you really can't fault Bligh for given that the guy was already being amazing by working at all despite his circumstances. 

 

Meanwhile we have the other books being pretty specific about what the Space Marines were doing during the Unity, which generally do not add up with the line of reasoning portrayed in the Novel.

 

Of all the sources to draw from, Inferno is likely not wisest one. Not least of which being that the Sixth and Fifteenth specifically did ziltch during the Unification Wars.

 

Compare that to say Betrayal where it is pretty blatant about the Sixteenth having carved out a reputation long before Luna (like the incident where one guy waited for the leader of an orbital to finish yelling at him to rip his head off and lighting a fair bit of the former-Mediterranean on fire). It also does not jive with the Third being raised fairly quickly from Europa to work with the army or the Fourteenth perfecting the Iron Side tactics of their ancestors ON Terra. 

 

Then there is the whole Herald's shtick, those Unification wars stories outright don't make sense with this timeline. 

 

Granted, its one book and hardly the weirdest disconnect of timelines in the setting (Prospero will likely hold that prize for eternity).

 

I think to a certain degree we have beat this particular horse into oblivion though.

 

I am actually fairly interested in hearing a bit about the PoVs in this book though, Wraight always writes very interesting mortal characters and I'd be interested to know a bit about them.

Edited November 29, 2019 by StrangerOrders