MegaVolt87 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 On 10/30/2019 at 11:00 PM, Knockagh said: On 10/30/2019 at 10:56 PM, Lord_Caerolion said: Probably something along the lines of "wow, this just sounds like he's reciting that book God Delusion by Richard Dawkins"? Sorry, not a fan of Last Church, just sounded like fanfic of some new teen atheist. Instead of going into the actual reasons for the Imperial Truth (there are powers out there that use religion for their own nefarious purposes, by denying them worship we weaken them), the Emperor just parrots the usual "but you can't prove God exists therefore he doesn't, checkmate theists!" Yes it was lazy writing. It tried to attach itself to nu atheism which was all the rage at the time. I’m not generally a fan of my fiction trying to reflect today’s political trends. I didn't see it that way but its a good point. I saw it more as him not wanting to even really hint at individual sentient powers even as a possibility to people who don't know how the warp/ chaos works. Those that do either he recruits them if they are not corrupted or just destroys them if they are/ likely to fall later. Otherwise, using other understood established concepts to debate/ explain makes sense. Also I think Valdor is switched on enough to work out why psykers aren't in the custodes, so we won't see much there. DarKnight 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 I mean, you're not wrong, it's just that the story comes across as like something written by a kid who just found out about Dawkins. It's exactly the same old tired cliches, with the priest there as nothing more than to give the most feeble of arguments for the Emperor to respond back with "yes, but you can't prove it, therefore religion is stupid and you're wrong, because science". It's basically nothing more than the Cliff-notes of The God Delusion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel_of_Blood Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Started reading it, not too far in but already come across my first new lore tidbit that’s very interesting. Reveal hidden contents Turns out the Thunder Warriors, or Legio Cataegis, we’re formed on the same principles as the Astartes that followed. There were twenty legions, each one led by a Primarch. Though the Primarchs weren’t any different to the others, just a title or rank. More interestingly, the Legions specialisations were the same as well as the Astartes, well potentially for all anyway. The fourth legion are mentioned. Called the Iron Lords, with a specialisation of siege warfare. Hopefully more reveals like this throughout. Taliesin and Aramis K 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Can't say I'm too fond of that. Look forward to getting my hands on this down the road though DarkChaplain and Runefyre 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Sounds like the Emperor just had the organization in mind, minus the ideal forces involved. Good base, bad parts evidently. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/31/2019 at 12:08 AM, Lord_Caerolion said: I mean, you're not wrong, it's just that the story comes across as like something written by a kid who just found out about Dawkins. It's exactly the same old tired cliches, with the priest there as nothing more than to give the most feeble of arguments for the Emperor to respond back with "yes, but you can't prove it, therefore religion is stupid and you're wrong, because science". It's basically nothing more than the Cliff-notes of The God Delusion. The Emperor kinda always modulated himself based off to whom he was speaking, he never voluntarily tips his true hand/ thoughts unless he is in a corner is how I saw it. Maybe he was purposefully doing it in a blase way in the hopes the priest actually knew about the warp and chaos proper, thus outing himself. Even then, the Emperor was still interested in the man regardless, hence the offer. I still get where you are coming from though, I am probably over analyzing at this point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/31/2019 at 12:08 AM, Lord_Caerolion said: I mean, you're not wrong, it's just that the story comes across as like something written by a kid who just found out about Dawkins. It's exactly the same old tired cliches, with the priest there as nothing more than to give the most feeble of arguments for the Emperor to respond back with "yes, but you can't prove it, therefore religion is stupid and you're wrong, because science". It's basically nothing more than the Cliff-notes of The God Delusion. not that i dont agree, but bottom line science/atheism essentially just boils down to that, doesn’t it? On 10/31/2019 at 1:24 AM, MegaVolt87 said: Sounds like the Emperor just had the organization in mind, minus the ideal forces involved. Good base, bad parts evidently. could have been his test run for the eventual real deal. how does this mix work? it’d be interesting to know if there were similar issues played out with the test DarKnight 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/31/2019 at 1:44 AM, mc warhammer said: On 10/31/2019 at 1:24 AM, MegaVolt87 said: Sounds like the Emperor just had the organization in mind, minus the ideal forces involved. Good base, bad parts evidently. could have been his test run for the eventual real deal. how does this mix work? it’d be interesting to know if there were similar issues played out with the test I think it might come down to what the thunder warriors actually are- proto astartes or knock off build custodes. Current combat power level is what, Custodes > Thunder Warrior > Astartes ? I always felt their prowess near a Custodes, plus the Custodes likely did most of the culling, Legionaries mainly perimeter security instead. I don't recall any Terran vets remembering killing Thunder Warriors at that time in the books. The unique legion functions maybe exclusively due to limited combat style adjustments, ie thunder warriors only being smart enough to do one very well. Legionaries being mentally stable enough to be flexible in combat, though Emperor still sees value in "signature warfare" of individualized legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/31/2019 at 2:02 AM, MegaVolt87 said: On 10/31/2019 at 1:44 AM, mc warhammer said: On 10/31/2019 at 1:24 AM, MegaVolt87 said: Sounds like the Emperor just had the organization in mind, minus the ideal forces involved. Good base, bad parts evidently.could have been his test run for the eventual real deal. how does this mix work? it’d be interesting to know if there were similar issues played out with the test I think it might come down to what the thunder warriors actually are- proto astartes or knock off build custodes. Current combat power level is what, Custodes > Thunder Warrior > Astartes ? I always felt their prowess near a Custodes, plus the Custodes likely did most of the culling, Legionaries mainly perimeter security instead. I don't recall any Terran vets remembering killing Thunder Warriors at that time in the books. The unique legion functions maybe exclusively due to limited combat style adjustments, ie thunder warriors only being smart enough to do one very well. Legionaries being mentally stable enough to be flexible in combat, though Emperor still sees value in "signature warfare" of individualized legions. it could go any way, though i think i’d prefer thunder warriors to be their own thing the prowess is an afterthought for me. and once you’re at that trans human level it seems a bit silly to have too many tiers. though i like the astartes being “superior” in a “jack of all trades” kinda way are thunder warriors not mentally enhanced as well? i know the guys in tOD were struggling somewhat mentally but i thought that was due to deteriorating not that they were brutes. the leader was confident he could work with gene seed after all as far as i recall, i think warhounds are the only recorded astartes who hunted thunderwarriors Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 I think the very fact thunder warriors deteriorate like that mentally at all seems to further support they can't attain a jack of all trades mastery of warfare, hence the necessity of specializing. Also confidence and intelligence are not necessarily mutually exclusive/ linked either in regards to mental capacity. eg the confident idiot/ brave fool, the guarded intellectual etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 no doubt, dunning krugers exist but deterioration after some period of time doesn’t mean they couldn’t have been exceptional at their peak Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel_of_Blood Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Well finished it. Expanded thoughts later, but to address some of the above. Reveal hidden contents From the brief interactions and descriptions, the Thunder Warriors seem closer to Astartes than Custodes. Their rather horrific instability is mentioned again. Their bodies just fall apart eventually, they stop following orders, become consumed with their rage and aggression. A few of them show up for the main battle of the book. Only two dozen and the last Primarch. They are rather quickly dispatched by Valdor and the First Legion, in the very first combat action of the Astartes ever. Kelborn, Sandlemad and Robbienw 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/31/2019 at 2:58 AM, Angel_of_Blood said: Well finished it. Expanded thoughts later, but to address some of the above. Reveal hidden contents From the brief interactions and descriptions, the Thunder Warriors seem closer to Astartes than Custodes. Their rather horrific instability is mentioned again. Their bodies just fall apart eventually, they stop following orders, become consumed with their rage and aggression. A few of them show up for the main battle of the book. Only two dozen and the last Primarch. They are rather quickly dispatched by Valdor and the First Legion, in the very first combat action of the Astartes ever. Reveal hidden contents outnumbered or simply outclassed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel_of_Blood Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Reveal hidden contents Oh colossally outnumbered. 24 Thunder Warriors, the Primarch and an unspecified number of regular army. Against Valdor and 10,000 of the First Legion. Though they are immensely fresh, painfully so. Valdor rather effortlessly dispatches all the Thunder Warriors he fights and then the Primarch quite easily. DarKnight and mc warhammer 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 dang DarKnight 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Mind blown. I must read this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 @ Angel of Blood Reveal hidden contents So it's Valdor vs. two dozen Thunder Warriors while the Ist Legion kinda spectate? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) Is it just about what you've posted or does it focus on the Imperium itself, politics, state, outfleshing the era, etc.? Edited October 31, 2019 by Kelborn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 The idea of Reveal hidden contents primarch being a perfectly mundane Unification-era rank term that got reused for the Emperor's own genetic/psychic god-men is extremely appealing to me. The idea that each Thunder Legion (always preferred thunder regiment, made it that bit more distant from what came after) had their own super-special unique 'thing' in the same fashion as the astartes legions is far less appealing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel_of_Blood Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) On 10/31/2019 at 5:55 AM, b1soul said: @ Angel of Blood Reveal hidden contents So it's Valdor vs. two dozen Thunder Warriors while the Ist Legion kinda spectate? Reveal hidden contents No, the First Legion engage the Thunder Warriors and the army units, with the Thunder Warriors throwing themselves straight at the new creations. Valdor and the Primarch make their way towards each other whilst talking and dispatching Thunder Warriors/Astartes with ease as they come to face each other. On 10/31/2019 at 6:10 AM, Kelborn said: Is it just about what you've posted or does it focus on the Imperium itself, politics, state, outfleshing the era, etc.? That is the end result, but it does through that go into the new politics of the Imperium. There's a good bit of world building for what Terra is like at that time and what it was like. Edited October 31, 2019 by Kelborn Kelborn 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Reveal hidden contents Seeing how the First Legion is involved, and we know for a fact that Astelan was one of the first batches made, with the Emperor handing psychic protection to him and others, is there any mention of that here, in regards to the First Legion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel_of_Blood Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/31/2019 at 10:35 AM, DarkChaplain said: Reveal hidden contents Seeing how the First Legion is involved, and we know for a fact that Astelan was one of the first batches made, with the Emperor handing psychic protection to him and others, is there any mention of that here, in regards to the First Legion? Reveal hidden contents Nah nothing, it's mostly just from others perspective of grey warriors marching through and slaughtering them(with the winged sword and an I stencilled on). It's made very clear that they have been rushed into service at this point too though, implants still raw, connections to their armour new, psycho-indoctrination not quite up to par. Yet still more than capable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 Reveal hidden contents If this is one of the final battles of the Unification Wars, I would have expected the Ist Legion to already have quite a bit of experience under their belts...why so raw? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel_of_Blood Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/31/2019 at 12:21 PM, b1soul said: Reveal hidden contents If this is one of the final battles of the Unification Wars, I would have expected the Ist Legion to already have quite a bit of experience under their belts...why so raw? Reveal hidden contents It's not one of the final battles. There are so few Custodes in the Palace as they are still fighting elsewhere for Unification with the Emperor. They are so raw as they were pressed into service very quickly to deal with this threat. And it's barely a battle, they completely slaughter the opposing force. And it is the very first battle the Astartes have ever been involved in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 Reveal hidden contents So are these just TW who have gone into rage mode at the wrong time? This isn't part of the actual Cull yet, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359473-valdor-birth-of-the-imperium/page/2/#findComment-5417713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now