Valdor: Birth of the Imperium

[Angel_of_Blood]

  On 10/31/2019 at 1:39 PM, b1soul said:

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So are these just TW who have gone into rage mode at the wrong time?

 

This isn't part of the actual Cull yet, right?

 

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No the Cull has already happened, these are just ones who survived it and went into hiding. The plot of the book revolves around one of the new High Lords finding out about the cull and taking action against Valdor.

[Beren]

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Is Ararat not where the cull occurred, and was the last major official battle of Unification? Unless I've got that wrong, there's some significant retconning going on here, because the Legions definitely saw action during Unification as per the Horus Heresy Black Books.

[Angel_of_Blood]

  On 10/31/2019 at 2:29 PM, Beren said:

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Is Ararat not where the cull occurred, and was the last major official battle of Unification? Unless I've got that wrong, there's some significant retconning going on here, because the Legions definitely saw action during Unification as per the Horus Heresy Black Books.

 

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The Cull did occur on Ararat as per Valdor. But evidently not the final battle of Unification. Though I can't recall if that was the case or not before this? I thought the Astartes never fought alongside the Thunder Warriors? There's still plenty of action for Unification for the Legions.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Angel_of_Blood

[Sandlemad]

  On 10/31/2019 at 2:33 PM, Angel_of_Blood said:

 

  On 10/31/2019 at 2:29 PM, Beren said:

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Is Ararat not where the cull occurred, and was the last major official battle of Unification? Unless I've got that wrong, there's some significant retconning going on here, because the Legions definitely saw action during Unification as per the Horus Heresy Black Books.

 

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The Cull did occur on Ararat as per Valdor. But evidently not the final battle of Unification. Though I can't recall if that was the case or not before this? I thought the Astartes never fought alongside the Thunder Warriors? There's still plenty of action for Unification for the Legions.

 

 

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Malevolence says that "the first companies of the other proto-Legions were blooded in Albia, Yndonesia and Franc alongside the massed ranks of the Thunder Warriors" and "some of the earliest Legions, such as the XVI Legion, were committed to the frontlines of the initial conquest alongside the Emperor's Thunder Warriors".

 

That's a relatively recent source though, not sure if there is older mention of them fighting alongside each other... Maybe there was something in Angels of Caliban?

[Angel_of_Blood]

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Hmmm, well that's certainly been retconned then.

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

Still waiting for delivery..fighting so so hard to ignore the spoilers till then 

[b1soul]

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Ararat was supposed to be the final battle of Unification and the Terran legions were supposed to have participated in significant action alongside the TW

Now Ararat seems to have occurred well before the end of the Unification Wars and the earliest legion barely overlapped with the last TW (in a hostile encounter).

Kinda preferred the old lore to be honest...

[Beren]

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Ditto. Especially given the relatively recent black book content it contradicts.

[karden00]

Any mention of Arik Taranis or Ghota? Or efforts among the thunder warriors to stabilize themselves?

While I don’t love that Primarchs in this case are big standards, I don’t mind at all that their organization foreshadows the legions so much. It’s old, established fluff that the legions were based on the thunder warrior model. Iirc, the very use of the term legion/chapter was a direct throwback.

[Carach]

going into spoiler messages on here now so i think it's time to remove myself from this conversation until Christmas when i have got it heh. 

 

Someone just tell me its worth the buy. Because i want this to be worth the buy. 

[Angel_of_Blood]

  On 10/31/2019 at 6:08 PM, karden00 said:

Any mention of Arik Taranis or Ghota? Or efforts among the thunder warriors to stabilize themselves?

 

 

Nope.

[Fedor]

I'm most interested in what this book does for the Valdor character himself, rather than Thunder Warriors/early Astartes. unlike Dorn, who has been given some good character work through his various brief appearances across the series, Valdor remains profoundly uninteresting other than being the best of the Custodes and their leader.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Fedor

[b1soul]

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Are there any insights or glimpses into Thunder Warrior anatomy or why they deteriorate/degrade mentally and physically?

[DarkChaplain]

The more I hear about it, the less enthusiastic I become. It sounds rather anti-Haley, so to speak. Where Haley manages to weave many things into a coherent whole, Wraight didn't even seem to acknowledge a lot of pre-existing ties to the Thunder Warriors and Unification Wars. The result are retcons and missed opportunities all over, it seems.

 

Even just looking at the Heresy itself, we got many accounts of Astartes fighting during the Unification Wars, including evidence that the first batches were noticeably better crafted than following generations. Having them rushed out with raw implants just feels ridiculously wrong in the light of what we've heard before in the Heresy =/

[Angel_of_Blood]

The retcon of when Ararat happens aside, I wouldn't let it dissuade you. I felt the book was captivating throughout, the characters were all good and interesting. Valdor was fleshed out as much as you can flesh him out to a degree, to the point where I kind of feel sorry for him having finished it, which you will see what I mean probably when you read it yourselves. And there's the key thing for me. The characters, like in most of Wraights novels, actually matter and have good personalities, where as you mention Halyey, I more often than not find his characters bland and unforgettable and his plots largely average. Not bad, but nothing stand out. Could always put a Haley book down and not pick it up again for a while. I finished this in a day as it was so engaging.

 

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As for the rawness of the Astartes, I don't see what the issue is there. This is literally a test fight for them, it's barely even their first deployment, they don't even have Legion strength numbers yet. The raw implants don't mean they're any less better crafted as you say. Just that they're pretty much sent out to quell this one little uprising straight after transitioning to fully fledged Astartes, no grace period for them to get used to their new bodies and abilities. Not to say they aren't going to become to the default standard or beyond after.

 

I'm also not too bothered about not seeing the Astartes fight alongside the Thunder Warriors either. Having not read all of Malevolence, I wasn't really aware of any fluff existing of them fighting together. The Thunder Warriors being wiped out and the Astartes carrying on with the rest of Terran Unification doesn't really bother me, it's not a huge lore breaking retcon by any means really and there is still plenty of fighting on Terra for them to be blooded on.

[calgar101]

Sounds like a very interesting read and one to add to the pile. Angel of blood would you mind messaging me any lore details about Valdor? I'm really interested in knowing more about him.

[b1soul]

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I just think it's a cool concept to have TW and Astartes fight side by side, and then order the latter to turn on the former (helping the Custodes to cull).

As for Ararat, Imperial propaganda says Arik Taranis planted the lightning standard atop the mountain before succumbing, marking the achievement of Unity. So I guess there's some wiggle room as propaganda and truth could stray a lot from each other?

EDIT: In Dreams of Unity by Nick Kyme, a surviving TW recalls that Arik Taranis did indeed raise the lightning banner atop Ararat and declare unity.

So while I love Wraight's prose and plotting...this might indeed be a retcon

[mc warhammer]

as much as i’m looking forward to reading about the TW stuff, let’s not forget the cool valdor character stuff too

 

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CW: The basic hook for me with Valdor is his sheer invincibility. He’s totally selfless, totally incorruptible, almost impossible to best in combat, without pride or ambition. What room does that leave for character? Will he not be incredibly boring? In some sense, that remorseless perfection is his weakness – he’s so much less human than the primarchs. His imagination is stunted, his capability for independent action is so limited. He’s at once the pinnacle of human achievement and a nightmare vision of its curtailment.

 

That’s what I’ve tried to home in on with the Custodians in general, too – they’re both demigods worthy of adoration and slaves deserving pity

[Angel_of_Blood]

  On 11/1/2019 at 1:25 PM, mc warhammer said:

as much as i’m looking forward to reading about the TW stuff, let’s not forget the cool valdor character stuff too

 

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CW: The basic hook for me with Valdor is his sheer invincibility. He’s totally selfless, totally incorruptible, almost impossible to best in combat, without pride or ambition. What room does that leave for character? Will he not be incredibly boring? In some sense, that remorseless perfection is his weakness – he’s so much less human than the primarchs. His imagination is stunted, his capability for independent action is so limited. He’s at once the pinnacle of human achievement and a nightmare vision of its curtailment.

 

Thact’s what I’ve tried to home in on with the Custodians in general, too – they’re both demigods worthy of adoration and slaves deserving pity

 

 

He pretty much nails this in the book. Heavyish spoiler follows.

 

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It's almost hard not to feel sorry for Valdor by the end. You realise he has literally nothing outside of what he does, he never had anything before, and never will have anything. All he has is his duty and how shackled he is to it. Along with being the peerless warrior that he is, and above just about everyone else he knows, leads to a pretty lonely and bleak existence.

 

Between him and Malcador:

 

 

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"Don't tell me you regret it, or I might begin to doubt your commitment to the cause."

If he expected Valdor to be angered by that, he was disappointed. The captain-general merely turned away, sweeping his long cloak about him and walking back along the gallery, leaving the Sigillite behind him in the shadows.

"How could you doubt that?" he said, speaking as if to no one in particular, or perhaps someone who was no longer present. "The cause is literally all I have."

 

And during his battle with Ushotan(the Primarch)

 

 

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"I lived, captain-general," Ushotan rasped. "It was short, and it was painful, but by nine hells, I lived. I'd rather have it that way than yours - no joy, no hate, no fear. Unbreakable without growth, immortal without passion."

As Valdor readied himself to apply downward pressure, he had a sudden view of a fa-off future-state, spun out of reality and into the cold halls of an undiscovered time, where the galaxy itself darkened by strife and whole worlds were cast into flames, where wonders and madnesses had been unlocked and now screamed their way through the arch of reality, where the foundations of physics creaked beneath the ravening scuttle of nightmarish unreason, and he was still there, still unchanged, still cold and pure and steadfast and unable to feel anything but the ubiquitous press of unending responsibility.

"What is left for you, Constantin?" Ushotan breathed, blood bubbling up between his burned lips. "What more can He take from you that He hasn't already?"

Valdor drew in a long breath, then plunged the knife in, ending the primarch's agony. For a moment he did nothing else, his head bowed, the storm exhausted itself around him and coating the land in a film of pal, drifting grey.

Then, slowly, he withdrew the blade.

"Nothing" he said, very softly. "Nothing at all."

 

Oh and one other thing, which is about the only thing we get even teasing Valdors background is this, when Astarte is musing to herself.

 

 

 

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One of the many secrets Astarte knew was Valdor's original name. She knew where he had been born, and what his parents had been before they had been killed. She knew why the Emperor had risked a huge amount to carry armies halfway across Terra to locate him, why the entire enterprise had almost come to nothing, and what had saved it.

 

Quite what that means isn't clear. But evidently Valdor isn't just anybody, nor just someone or something the Emperor encountered. He risked seemingly everything to locate him and take him.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Angel_of_Blood

[b1soul]

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That's a juicy hook (Astarte's knowledge). Perhaps Valdor is the culmination or near-culmination of some sort of breeding program?

I feel that Valdor and Dorn would get along well...but they kinda don't in Magisterium

[Alpharius902]

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I always thought that Ararat was only the last battle of the Thunder Warriors, not the last battle of the Unification, since we have a lot of Astartes only actions during the time, like Orioc, and the Caucasus Wastes. Plus, some of the Heresy books mention general unrest still happening during the Great Crusade across Terra.

 

Also, the Angelis Tenebraum can kind of be reconciled with the other lore. There’s 5,000 Astartes attacking the Thunder Warriors right? Extermination states that the “Alpha” intake for each Legion was only about one to two thousand warriors. So maybe the Astartes we’re seeing here are out of the testing phase and in full Astartes phase while the “Alpha” intake was only Scout Auxillia attached to Thunder Warrior forces. Akurduana in Ferrus’ Primarch novel only remembers training alongside an old Thunder Warrior, so it can kind of match up that they were just attached like Scout Marines are now

 

Also, can we get an example of some of the world building of Ancient Terra. The descriptions of the various warlords’ armies and empire is fascinating to me.

[DarKnight]

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Re: the spoiler Angel_of_Blood shared with us regarding Valdor's fight with the Thunder Warrior Primarch, it's so annoying when 30K era characters get these portents on the 40K era galaxy lol like yeah man we know things are gonna suck, for someone like Valdor who already knows more of the underpinnings of how the galaxy works than anyone save the Emperor himself, he's quite aware of the stakes. I am intrigued by the story however, thanks to everyone who's shared.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Kelborn

[Fedor]

Sounds like we've got some Wraightcons on our hands here.

[b1soul]

Lord knows I am a big fan of Wraight, but I believe he, even being the fine writer he is, has retconned himself before.

 

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Read the lodge meeting portion of Scars and the descriptions of Hibou Khan in Grey Talon...and try to tell me whether Hibou Khan is Terran or Chogorian. That is admittedly minor though.

 

I have faith in Wraight, so I think these Unification changes, if further developed, have potential to become an interesting take on that period.

 

EDIT: In Outcast Dead, Arik Taranis is described as something more than a mere TW. His psychic presence stuns Atharva.

 

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So I believe he might be something more than a TW primarch (which is merely the equivalent of an Astartes legion master). He could be something comparable to Primus in The Great Work. In fact, Valdor himself could be something similar to Primus.

[bluntblade]

I always thought Hibou was Terran, but had taken in more Chogorian influence than Torghun.