Valdor: Birth of the Imperium

[Fire Golem]

Yeah, the Astarte bit doesn't make sense to me. Sedayne talks about her both during the creation of the Legiones Astartes gene-tech, and her name gets brought up post-Heresy as well, with her legacy tarnished, but not to that level. Why'd they even keep the name of "Astartes" if her fall from grace was so impactful re: the Primarch Project, and it happened before first deployment of them? Not like the project was widely publicized outside the Emperor's chosen few yet.

 

Her fall from grace had nothing to do with the Primarch project. The Primarchs were gone before she went rogue, and her actions had very little impact on the Astartes project too, as Malcador had already had gene seed samples moved to Luna

 

Just finished it, really enjoyed it. I dunno what’s retcons or not, I don’t have a firm grasp of the timeline of the unification wars to the great crusade, so none of that bothered me, and even now knowing it may be wrong I don’t overly care, the book was still excellent in my opinion. As mentioned earlier, I almost feel sorry for Valdor by the end of the book. 

[Ubiquitous1984]

From the reactions in this topic I've decided to give this a miss...

Don’t let the retcons put you off a very enjoyable book.  

[StrangerOrders]

 

Yeah, the Astarte bit doesn't make sense to me. Sedayne talks about her both during the creation of the Legiones Astartes gene-tech, and her name gets brought up post-Heresy as well, with her legacy tarnished, but not to that level. Why'd they even keep the name of "Astartes" if her fall from grace was so impactful re: the Primarch Project, and it happened before first deployment of them? Not like the project was widely publicized outside the Emperor's chosen few yet.

 

Her fall from grace had nothing to do with the Primarch project. The Primarchs were gone before she went rogue, and her actions had very little impact on the Astartes project too, as Malcador had already had gene seed samples moved to Luna

 

Just finished it, really enjoyed it. I dunno what’s retcons or not, I don’t have a firm grasp of the timeline of the unification wars to the great crusade, so none of that bothered me, and even now knowing it may be wrong I don’t overly care, the book was still excellent in my opinion. As mentioned earlier, I almost feel sorry for Valdor by the end of the book. 

 

Wait... wut?

 

So it also retcons the Lunar Pacification by the Astartes? The event that literally gave the Luna Wolves their name and was one of the first major actions by Astartes? The event that lead to the fall of the Selenites, the literal climax of the first Siege book, the premise of Sons of the Selenar, Praetorian of Dorn, the Blight of the Third and one of the cooler factions in 30k?

 

Unless I read that wrong, this book seems more like a flipping the bird at the entirety of early Crusade Lore and the entire lore of several legions and retcons the day-view of Astartes from a badass conquest of the Moon to being cheerleaders for Valdor while he is sad?

 

I really hope that I am reading these spoilers wrong because that is alot even by Wright's standards of ignoring lore.

[Fire Golem]

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the Astarte bit doesn't make sense to me. Sedayne talks about her both during the creation of the Legiones Astartes gene-tech, and her name gets brought up post-Heresy as well, with her legacy tarnished, but not to that level. Why'd they even keep the name of "Astartes" if her fall from grace was so impactful re: the Primarch Project, and it happened before first deployment of them? Not like the project was widely publicized outside the Emperor's chosen few yet.

Her fall from grace had nothing to do with the Primarch project. The Primarchs were gone before she went rogue, and her actions had very little impact on the Astartes project too, as Malcador had already had gene seed samples moved to Luna

 

Just finished it, really enjoyed it. I dunno what’s retcons or not, I don’t have a firm grasp of the timeline of the unification wars to the great crusade, so none of that bothered me, and even now knowing it may be wrong I don’t overly care, the book was still excellent in my opinion. As mentioned earlier, I almost feel sorry for Valdor by the end of the book.

Wait... wut?

 

So it also retcons the Lunar Pacification by the Astartes? The event that literally gave the Luna Wolves their name and was one of the first major actions by Astartes? The event that lead to the fall of the Selenites, the literal climax of the first Siege book, the premise of Sons of the Selenar, Praetorian of Dorn, the Blight of the Third and one of the cooler factions in 30k?

 

Unless I read that wrong, this book seems more like a flipping the bird at the entirety of early Crusade Lore and the entire lore of several legions and retcons the day-view of Astartes from a badass conquest of the Moon to being cheerleaders for Valdor while he is sad?

 

I really hope that I am reading these spoilers wrong because that is alot even by Wright's standards of ignoring lore.

No. Malcador had just come back from Luna, where he’d met with the Selenar, and he was saying they would need to send more envoys (I’m guessing these will be the envoys sent back all genecrafted into one big lump of flesh - that’s Luna right?). But he took some of the gene seed with him, so it wasn’t all destroyed by Astarte.

[Beren]

 

 

 

Yeah, the Astarte bit doesn't make sense to me. Sedayne talks about her both during the creation of the Legiones Astartes gene-tech, and her name gets brought up post-Heresy as well, with her legacy tarnished, but not to that level. Why'd they even keep the name of "Astartes" if her fall from grace was so impactful re: the Primarch Project, and it happened before first deployment of them? Not like the project was widely publicized outside the Emperor's chosen few yet.

Her fall from grace had nothing to do with the Primarch project. The Primarchs were gone before she went rogue, and her actions had very little impact on the Astartes project too, as Malcador had already had gene seed samples moved to Luna

Just finished it, really enjoyed it. I dunno what’s retcons or not, I don’t have a firm grasp of the timeline of the unification wars to the great crusade, so none of that bothered me, and even now knowing it may be wrong I don’t overly care, the book was still excellent in my opinion. As mentioned earlier, I almost feel sorry for Valdor by the end of the book.

Wait... wut?

So it also retcons the Lunar Pacification by the Astartes? The event that literally gave the Luna Wolves their name and was one of the first major actions by Astartes? The event that lead to the fall of the Selenites, the literal climax of the first Siege book, the premise of Sons of the Selenar, Praetorian of Dorn, the Blight of the Third and one of the cooler factions in 30k?

Unless I read that wrong, this book seems more like a flipping the bird at the entirety of early Crusade Lore and the entire lore of several legions and retcons the day-view of Astartes from a badass conquest of the Moon to being cheerleaders for Valdor while he is sad?

I really hope that I am reading these spoilers wrong because that is alot even by Wright's standards of ignoring lore.

No. Malcador had just come back from Luna, where he’d met with the Selenar, and he was saying they would need to send more envoys (I’m guessing these will be the envoys sent back all genecrafted into one big lump of flesh - that’s Luna right?). But he took some of the gene seed with him, so it wasn’t all destroyed by Astarte.

So he took some of the Imperium's most valuable resources with him on a diplomatic trip, left it there, got it back, then the faction turned out to be actively hostile?

[Splog]

IIRC they even talk about how many Astartes they’re going to need for the Luna campaign

This is one of the (many) problems with discussions of spoilers without a proper review/summary. Snippets here and there, or poor summaries don’t do the material justice. They’re probably good to get the general arc or to glean specific points. But often people write off perfectly decent books because of partial/bad/misleading discussion before a lot of people get access. That could be an argument to push for general access as soon as possible, and for GW to avoid fragmenting their customer base (which as an aside, becoming a second/third tier reader of the HH via the original paperback format pushed me away from forums for years, which in turn pushed me away from the game). Some people still have really weird ideas about the recent conflict in the Fenris system because of some early incorrect spoilers.

(I’m not against spoiler discussions) Edited November 12, 2019 by Splog

[Fire Golem]

Agreed with Splog. Spoiler discussions are fine, but I know personally today I’m working off a book I finished last night and I tend to skim read a little, especially as I get towards the end of a book and want to know what’s going to happen. People get the wrong ideas from spoilers which aren’t quite accurate, or don’t quite have the proper context etc.

 

And I absolutely think the normal editions should come out alongside the limited editions. Would stop a fair bit of this. I still would have got the limited one of this even if the normal one was available at the same time.

[Beren]

You're both going to need to clarify some more then, because now it sounds like he left the stuff he needed to invade a place in the place he knew he would have to invade.

[Angel_of_Blood]

You're both going to need to clarify some more then, because now it sounds like he left the stuff he needed to invade a place in the place he knew he would have to invade.

 

It's only a hint of a conversation, so hard to answer really. But Malcador has been up to Luna, and from the sounds of it has been there before, though a long time ago. He didn't actually meet with the Selenar, and mentions they'll likely need three legions to take it by force. Mentions 'caches' of the gene-seed etc. The Selenar don't control all of Luna, so I would presume that they have set up staging grounds up there as they ready diplomatic talks(which they believe will fail, hence the need for the legions), and have put caches of the tech up there. The Selenar aren't at open war, unlike the grounds of Terra still. So really it is safer up there than down on the planet.

 

As for people saying they're going to miss this out because of the spoilers. As others have said, I wouldn't do that. The book is very good and of one of BL's higher standards. You can't get full context from snippets of spoilers here. And I personally still don't see the main retcon as a massive issue. It's nothing lore breaking to me and can still work in the setting. Don't see why people are adamantly against reading the book already because of it, but hey, your loss.

[bluntblade]

I'm mostly interested to see what the book reveals about its main subject.

[StrangerOrders]

 

You're both going to need to clarify some more then, because now it sounds like he left the stuff he needed to invade a place in the place he knew he would have to invade.

 

It's only a hint of a conversation, so hard to answer really. But Malcador has been up to Luna, and from the sounds of it has been there before, though a long time ago. He didn't actually meet with the Selenar, and mentions they'll likely need three legions to take it by force. Mentions 'caches' of the gene-seed etc. The Selenar don't control all of Luna, so I would presume that they have set up staging grounds up there as they ready diplomatic talks(which they believe will fail, hence the need for the legions), and have put caches of the tech up there. The Selenar aren't at open war, unlike the grounds of Terra still. So really it is safer up there than down on the planet.

 

As for people saying they're going to miss this out because of the spoilers. As others have said, I wouldn't do that. The book is very good and of one of BL's higher standards. You can't get full context from snippets of spoilers here. And I personally still don't see the main retcon as a massive issue. It's nothing lore breaking to me and can still work in the setting. Don't see why people are adamantly against reading the book already because of it, but hey, your loss.

 

Can't speak for others but skepticism is not going to stop me from reading this book, it is usually one thing to go with Spoilers and another to read it yourself.

 

Do I like these retcons? Not from what folks have said, they feel really off. That is by preference though, I imagine folks that are into the 30k game and like the Black Books are going to be skeptical in general in this regard because early Legion lore is pretty popular in my experience.

 

Does that mean I am going to skip out on the book? No, because it can still be a good book even if in the very worst situation (which it probably won't be) it would be far from the first time a 40k player has to mentally shove a book into the shredder to make sense of the greater narrative. Good as a book and good as an element of the setting are different things, both usually influenced by the individual viewing it. 

 

Not to mention, for all my qualms with his loathing of sticking to the script, Wraight has some of the strongest characterizations and more enjoyable style of pros in the roster of BL writers. 

 

Also, it is much better to critique from an informed position than it is to merely discard it out of hand before you are yourself familiar. I am content to ask questions for now (even if I am annoyed that I missed the preorder window and will have to wait a few months) and to give opinions on those answers. To actually rate the book requires reading it.

 

I am deeply skeptical of any chance of BL changing its release pattern however, these tactics tend to build demand and they are a pretty stubborn company to start with. 

[b1soul]

If BL has strong data suggesting that LE releases drive sales, they will continue with this release order. The corporate heads are in the business of maximising profit and couldn't care less about fan preferences unless they affect the bottom line.

[DarkChaplain]

I'm definitely going to end up reading it. The question is one of when, and how far up I'm willing to bump it the reading pile on release. I've got more than enough to keep me busy. The book is one I wasn't too eager for to begin with, though, and the seemingly ubiquitous retcons sour me on it further. Valdor as the Chosen One that the Emperor specifically went out to recruit despite considerable investments on his part also doesn't help making the bloke more interesting to me.

 

Either way, maybe some more reviews around launch will persuade me to give it a try earlier, but as of right now, I'd be surprised if I'd prioritize it over other stuff releasing around that time, like The Oubliette.

[Indefragable]

Caught up on this thread in a single instance and al I can say is “chill, Winston!”.

 

People who read it are being kind enough to answer questions and it seems like folks are jumping down their throats for doing so. Relax a bit a and show some gratitude to the folks providing spoilers at your requests. I’ve been on both sides of this thing and as others have said, it’s always best to just read the damn thing yourself for all the context. Right now it’s coming across as someone asking if they’ve heard a new song, then asking if to bring described, then being like “wait, there’s a 3min guitar solo and sl cow bell? That’s terrible!” ....when clearly you need to hear the actual song for yourself to understand and form a proper judgement.

 

I went all spoiler-tactic on Titandeath and debated if it was even worth bothering with. I ended up filling a coin and getting it and now feel it’s one of Haley’s best outings...for precisely the opposite reasons I was even interested in it; the scenes and characters I had 0 interest in ended up making some of the biggest impact on me, especially in surprising ways*. I mean, isn’t that exactly what we all want from a good book?

 

Let’s take a breather and enjoy the buildup for this one. It’s almost Christmas time and patience is a virtue.

 

 

*

The scene where a character gives birth naturally (something no one in the Mechanicum does naymorw) was one of the most beautiful scenes I have read, in or out of 40k. As a new parent, I can’t explain how much it has stayed with me.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Indefragable

[Beren]

 

You're both going to need to clarify some more then, because now it sounds like he left the stuff he needed to invade a place in the place he knew he would have to invade.

 

It's only a hint of a conversation, so hard to answer really. But Malcador has been up to Luna, and from the sounds of it has been there before, though a long time ago. He didn't actually meet with the Selenar, and mentions they'll likely need three legions to take it by force. Mentions 'caches' of the gene-seed etc. The Selenar don't control all of Luna, so I would presume that they have set up staging grounds up there as they ready diplomatic talks(which they believe will fail, hence the need for the legions), and have put caches of the tech up there. The Selenar aren't at open war, unlike the grounds of Terra still. So really it is safer up there than down on the planet.

 

As for people saying they're going to miss this out because of the spoilers. As others have said, I wouldn't do that. The book is very good and of one of BL's higher standards. You can't get full context from snippets of spoilers here. And I personally still don't see the main retcon as a massive issue. It's nothing lore breaking to me and can still work in the setting. Don't see why people are adamantly against reading the book already because of it, but hey, your loss.

 

 

Okay. thanks for the explanation.

[StrangerOrders]

Caught up on this thread in a single instance and al I can say is “chill, Winston!”.

 

People who read it are being kind enough to answer questions and it seems like folks are jumping down their throats for doing so. Relax a bit a and show some gratitude to the folks providing spoilers at your requests. I’ve been on both sides of this thing and as others have said, it’s always best to just read the damn thing yourself for all the context. Right now it’s coming across as someone asking if they’ve heard a new song, then asking if to bring described, then being like “wait, there’s a 3min guitar solo and sl cow bell? That’s terrible!” ....when clearly you need to hear the actual song for yourself to understand and form a proper judgement.

 

I went all spoiler-tactic on Titandeath and debated if it was even worth bothering with. I ended up filling a coin and getting it and now feel it’s one of Haley’s best outings...for precisely the opposite reasons I was even interested in it; the scenes and characters I had 0 interest in ended up making some of the biggest impact on me, especially in surprising ways*. I mean, isn’t that exactly what we all want from a good book?

 

Let’s take a breather and enjoy the buildup for this one. It’s almost Christmas time and patience is a virtue.

 

 

*

The scene where a character gives birth naturally (something no one in the Mechanicum does naymorw) was one of the most beautiful scenes I have read, in or out of 40k. As a new parent, I can’t explain how much it has stayed with me.

About one guy has said that they were not interested in the book in fairness.

 

As to 'jumping down throats', I am largely reacting to what folks say and extrapolating from what I am given. They have been kind enough to answer and I am nothing if not grateful for their insight because they have no obligation to answer.

 

As I said earlier, I tend to read books regardless of what was said earlier. At this point, I am more or less a captive audience anyhow. Valdor is no different in this regard.

 

Not sure how what anyone has said so far has been rude so far. And I apologize if someone took insult at something I said, I am reacting to a book as I hear of it and asking questions of folks kind enough to share their insight with those of us that could not catch the LE before they ran out. That is about the extent of it. 

 

And in that spirit, I will continue to beg indulgence to those willing to give it.

 

Any mention of odd abhumans and the like of Terra in the book? Migou and the like are an interesting subject to me.

[Hyperion]

Question from p167 about sigils...

p167: At regular intervals the colossal racks were scored with larger sigils engraved in gold - a raptor, a lightning strike, a drop of blood surmounted by stylised wings, a wolf's head.

2-4 are obvious, but who do we think the Raptors are?

I was wondering if it might be the Imperial Heralds' original sigil, given they represented the Imperium? (Or one of the ...gasp... Lost?!)

[SkimaskMohawk]

The raven guard

[Lord_Caerolion]

So the Emperor apparently knew the IXth Legion would become the Blood Angels, despite that only occurring after the Primarchs got scattered, Sanguinius landed on Baal, and happened to get adopted by a tribe calling themselves "the Blood", or the Vth Legion becoming the White Scars only because the Khan got adopted by a culture that utilizes scarification rituals?

I hate when we get these winks from the authors that make no real sense.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Lord_Caerolion

[DarKnight]

Question from p167 about sigils...

p167: At regular intervals the colossal racks were scored with larger sigils engraved in gold - a raptor, a lightning strike, a drop of blood surmounted by stylised wings, a wolf's head.

2-4 are obvious, but who do we think the Raptors are?

I was wondering if it might be the Imperial Heralds' original sigil, given they represented the Imperium? (Or one of the ...gasp... Lost?!)

never mind Edited November 11, 2019 by DarKnight

[StrangerOrders]

Its a shame that the idea is that they are throwing away all the work Forgeworld and the late Bligh put into creating the Terran legacies of each Legion, their complex internal cultures and how they existed before the Primarchs.

 

I personally always thought that it was great that Forgeworld had taken the one opportunity to step away from the constant Great Man archetype of 40k, letting the Legions be the ones that overcame the last barriers of Terra and to carve out their identity.

 

The idea that the V were at first the wild riders that ranged ahead as harriers for the Thunder Legions, the terrors inflicted by his Wolves before he released them on Luna to earn their proper name. Many Legions were given such a cool narrative about how their first embers came about and were let feel unique.

 

Especially the IX Revenant Legion, the ghoulish monsters that stocked the worst battlefields of Terra with unmatched brutality only to be made into golden angels by their father. 

 

The idea of replacing that with the ongoing meme of the Emp being physically incapable of originality does rankle. But that does not mean that it is Wraight's fault per se. This is actually running very much in counter to his usual take on Legion identity (broadening it rather than this somewhat contrived annihilation), so it is entirely possible that it is a studio note that he was gagged by. 

 

To say nothing of neutering the Primarchs being able to think for themselves or Astartes not being allowed to adapt.

 

But we also have to remember that the folks that got the preview are human, and therefore lack a complete awareness of all lore like we all do. It is entirely possible that they completely misread all of this and that this is not at all the case. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by StrangerOrders

[Marshal Rohr]

The Emperor can see the future. He might see them and their symbols and have no idea how or why they exist, just that they are there. He might’ve specifically picked genetic traits for the legions because he saw their character and appearance in the future. It’s all part of the classic time travel trope of self-fulfilling prophecies. Edited November 12, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[b1soul]

Or maybe the Emperor planned the scattering and knew where the Primarchs would be scattered...IIRC that's always been a suspicion among the Primarchs

 

I wouldn't say this throws away all of them FW Terran legion lore. It just retcons the TW and Terran legions fighting side by side.

[Marshal Loss]

Mmm, don't like this at all. It's justifiable in terms of context in-universe, as Rohr rightly points out, but it just feels too...on the nose for me. It places the Legions & their Primarchs as the pivot around which the entire narrative spins. The setting is strong enough to stand on its own two feet with falling prey to repetition and tropes.

[Splog]

In Wolfsbane it’s strongly implied Russ was meant for Fenris, down to being a genetic fit with the locals. And the norse-y element of Fenris, it being a ‘playground world of sagas and ancient stories made real, welcoming a hero to rule it’ being a big too fortunate to be coincidence.

 

(Personal pet theory is that the warp element of Russ is drawn from the Norse gods).