State of the HH vs 40k 8th edition

[ProsperoStands]

 

If you want 8th, go play 8th. Nothing is stopping you.

Stop trying to make Heresy 8th. Its not and for that I am glad. 8th can keep the unpainted/primed, unbased, unfluffy armies.

Literally every variety of every game system on the planet has those people in droves. Stop acting like 30k is some beacon of purity for wargaming when it’s just as toxic as any other group.

 

Frankly people with this attitude just come across as having their heads so far up their arses they don’t know whether to fart or cough.

 

In my experience, 30k is far less prone to it. You don't see as much unpainted at 30k events or even casual 30k. Now I understand that is not everywhere but there is nothing wrong with 30k having a higher standered.

 

And that is in no way saying 30k wants to "gatekeep" in fact far from it. Our 30k club here in New England goes out of its way to help new player with playing, painting, collecting armies, etc.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I didn’t take the time to read all the posts from the last page, but just I feel like I got the gist of what most of the replies were saying and I have some food for thought.

 

There are cultures within wargaming. We can all relate to each other in some level regardless of what the game is. That can be further broken down into the cultures and communities found in individual games.. this whole community on this forum for example. That can be broken down even further between factions, and in the AoD forum specifically 30k vs 40k. Now I know everyone hobbies for their own reasons, those are completely subjective, with no true rights or wrongs. I believe generally we can all agree to my statements as (slightly over) generalized facts. That said, is there something wrong with these individual communities having their own culture and identities? It’s unfortunate that some gamers were treated poorly by individuals within the HH/30k community... I wouldn’t advocate for that, ever. With that said, is there really an issue and offense to be taken from the idea that for the community as a whole, HH/30k gamers care more about fluff and enjoying the setting? Why are people getting so upset about the understanding of there being a certain draw to the HH/30k setting? Or, is the issue just experiences that have put bad tastes in people’s mouths? I really don’t care if people have an elitist attitude about HH/30k, particularly when the reasons for those attitudes are things I agree with. If HH/30k communities want to set a tone, and have a particular culture then good for them. Now, to drive the point home, it shouldn’t be in a rude way.. but if a player attempts to join a community and has nothing but WAAC on their minds or playing in a manner counter to that community, that community has all the right to exile the individual that doesn’t want to assimilate.

 

War re-enactmenting has a particular community, those group members may not appreciate someone showing up who is unwilling to recreate history. That’s their right to not allow that person to participate, if the individual ain’t playing nice, then they may have to get rude. That, is understandable. Wouldn’t surprise me to see scenarios within the 30k community play out in a similar fashion. Which I have absolutely no issue with.

[Captain Idaho]

=][= I've done some pruning of posts particularly rude or that responded to said rudeness. There is no need to comment about the head of anyone existing in a state of perpetual gloom in any orifice that might be otherwise used for described activities unbecoming of a family friendly site. Please choose your language a little more carefully. =][=

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

Alright, I've read through most of the thread now or skimmed a significant chunk. To answer the original question;

"Are you guys mostly satisfied about where WH30k is at right now?"

Yes, yes I am. I've transitioned exclusively to 30k as a system for a number of reasons. I find it more nuanced than 40k/8th is, I'll try to break up those reasons into categories.


Narrative; 

It offers the narrative that I'm searching for, Legions over Chapters any day of the week. I love the flexibility that such numerous militant arms allow. That I can carve my own niche within tens of thousands feels very pleasant. That I can say that in a homebrew campaign my 42nd have taken hundreds of losses, it feels believable. Something about the gravitas of so many marines dying feels intense without the feeling of irreplaceable lost, like in 40k. I also heavily, heavily dislike primaris and the new narrative/lore direction that is being taken in the "on going" setting. Primaris still feel hamfisted to me, and the entirety of the new publications coming out feels too advert heavy. "Check out our new primaris with stalker bolters and their new ride!" I personally also just preferred when the setting was stagnant, but I digress. This section alone, I could write an essay on.

The scale;

Isn't what bothers me as I true-scale my marines. I love the actual upscaling of marines to be more in-line with how their lore representation should be. I would appreciate it if things like mark 2* 5* was rereleased in a more "enbiggened" state via plastics. I also like the updated vehicle sizes, except for...


The Models/modeling;

Their new aesthetic is super busy in all the wrong ways for Warhammer. The kits look too "tacticool", and while I love portraying my models with plenty of ammo pouches and webbing and such on them, at some point less is more. The repulsor has too much of something, I can't even nail it down. Also the grav tech being suddenly everywhere. This point can be in the narrative section as well (seriously, grav-tech is supposed to be RARE and misunderstood). Astartes vehicles should be bricks with massive treads, or at least huge wheels. My two cents.

*edit* I love that AoD has rules for things that don't even have a model for them. GW's new line of thinking seems to be "If it doesn't have a model, it has no rules." Bahumbug! And stiffle the communities creativity and kitbashing? That's what I adore about 30k! I LOVE to see all the ways people make X/Y/Z character on a bike, or with jumppack. There are no rules for an apothecary on a bike in 40k. Why? It's abirtrary, and because they haven't made a model for it. It's irritating, and this all boils back down to the chapter-house lawsuit a few  years back. GW proper is so afraid of being burned by that again, it haunts and hurts the community, in my opinion. 

TDLR: It's the generalization and loss of 'warhammer'esq aesthetic that the new sculpts have in abundance. I saw someone paint up the reivers in a Halo universe color scheme, and a Starwars clone scheme... and the figures looked like they 'belonged'. Try that with any of the older marine sculpts, it'll look too bizarre. 

Painting;

Paint-wise, the 30k setting/community has always gone for a more realistic approach to their paintjobs (this is a generalization, but I digress), and the official models often reflected it too, to a certain time period. Look at the older Legion specific sculpts and vehicles/dreadnoughts and their preview/box art and then compare it to the later releases. Less edge-highlights, more chipping and battle damage. Vehicles would utilize more advanced techniques, weathering powders, etc. It gave the whole setting a much more grounded, believable foundation. Realism in my sci-fi? Shocking, but subjectively, I appreciate this a lot more. It's that tiny bit that allows me to think: "Hey, this can be plausible"

Game Mechanics;

Eighth edition with me has become too competitive. Let me extrapolate on that. With the introduction of CP's, it felt very nice. It still feels nice to re-roll that one die per round. However, the alpha-striking in eighth felt too pronounced, and the more CP you could dump into some disgusting combo turned me away from it. I think this became a really big problem around the introduction of the Knight Valiant and the "Loyal 32" meta. I haven't kept up with 8th almost at all since, so I don't even know if that's a thing that's still doable with the CP-farm. Since this, everything about 8th edition, even down to list building feels too much "how viable is my list? Can I table a knight in one round of shooting? Do I have a deletion answer to X/Y/Z?", and that turns me away. 

I like the simplification of psychic powers. I don't like how limited the schools of psychic powers is though. Again, I'm mostly comparing base-ish 8th versus AoD. If we can have the simplified casting, with all the various trees/schools to pick from, I would be pleased. 

I'm too in love with challenges, and heroic interventions don't do it for me. 

I am also in favor of the cover system a lot more. True-sight is beautiful, and the fact that you can see a tiny portion of my landraider's front tread, thus allowing you to shoot at it is dumb. The vehicle is heavily obscured, with all the benefits of such. I like that my marines can opt to take a cover save or their armor save, and their armor isn't magically improved upon, somehow. 

Back to vehicles -  angling for weaponry makes sense. Sponsons feel awesome when you align them all properly, and get the maximum amount of guns on target. Doesn't make sense that my massive super heavy was able to pivot in the 6 seconds (I'm using the DnD rule of 6 for each combat round as a sort of generalization here, but sometimes it helps your imagination flow) and fire all of those guns and then pivot back.

Pie templates do slow the game down, but they feel more satisfying to use than a randomized roll. Subjective opinion. On the matter, I think the pouring over the list of stratagems you have available to you (especially with how many more there are now since I last played) has replaced the "cut/removed" time loss of removing templates. Thinking back to my last few games of 8th edition, waiting as my opponent um'd and ehm'd face down in their books picking out a stratagem to use, it was incredibly dissatisfying. At least with templates I can see what they're thinking, and I am more engaged as I look upon where the barrage might be landing. 

Before I leave my TDLR, I leave this gem from the Horus Heresy Crusade group on facebook.
 

So, to summarize - there's a lot of things I think AoD could borrow from 8E, such as; the scaling of new marines. The less headache of the psychic phase (without the loss of many powers). However, as a whole - I love the setting and will continue to build my armies for this setting. If it sees improvement, great! If the system was to truly be "killed off" (aka no more support in anyway) I am sure I and my gaming buds would continue to play it. Halo Fleet Battles was killed off years back, and yet there's a fan gathering of it at Adepticon 2020, so it just shows us all that no matter where our passions lie or which system we feel loyalty to - as long as there's passion, these systems live on.

-edit- I will say this... give us Atramentar models, FW. pls.

-edit #2- This should go into the modeling aspect as well... but I love that AoD has rules for things that don't even have a model for them. GW's new line of thinking seems to be "If it doesn't have a model, it has no rules." Bahumbug! And stiffle the communities creativity and kitbashing? That's what I adore about 30k! I LOVE to see all the ways people make X/Y/Z character on a bike, or with jumppack. There are no rules for an apothecary on a bike in 40k. Why? It's abirtrary, and because they haven't made a model for it. It's irritating, and this all boils back down to the chapter-house lawsuit a few  years back. GW proper is so afraid of being burned by that again, it haunts and hurts the community, in my opinion. 

Lizard out!

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Hungry Nostraman Lizard

[InquisitorVonTansburg]

More of a modeler than an actual gamer myself, but Hungry Nostraman Lizard, I completely agree with you.

[Gederas]

I agree with the murder lizard. 30k very much seems like it's a way more cinematic game than 8th Edition from the get-go. There are some clunky mechanics that could be done over (like the Psychic phase, AP and WS/BS), but it's really a solid system.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Gederas

[Charlo]

Thanks Lizard, you put it into words I think a lot of us couldn't.

 

8th certainly is a lot more gamey and combo oriented with CP whereas HH is a decidedly narrative experience.

[Lord Blackwood]

I  will certainly cedee that there is a lot more of a cinematic feel with 30k than  40k. 

Though that was true when both systems were based in 7th as well. 

There is something glorious about  the knights of my household just completely ignoring small arms fire in  30k where it can ping them down in 40k. 

 

[Vykes]

The Nostraman Lizard makes a convincing emotional argument, so what does it say that I'm jaded enough that I'm not swayed with an appeal to past cinematic glory?   It's what I want, but every time I see it 'play out' I'm the only doing doing it, and getting leaned on by Scoria and a full myrmidon unit backed up by a Pory, or Custodes shield captains and maxed jetbikes and a pory, or a primarch and a pory... 

 

Y'know, I think I'll have to just quote my competitive vs. casual reply because I think it's probably telling.  For you lot who are playing in these near mythic 'fluffy' gaming groups, I envy you... a lot.  Because I think that's a big part of what I'm not getting: 8E and AoD don't have that division here.  There is no fluffy one vs. hardcore gamey other, it's two groups that know exactly how to individually break both systems involved.  I'll leave a bit of a snippet and the link from the casual vs. competitive discussion thread:

 

 

I live in a very competitive meta with a tribal atmosphere in the gaming community that (as I have just come to know, becoming an Admin of a facebook group for the current local community and having the veil ripped off) is not only divisive but horrendously toxic to the point of legal actions. The local scene is extremely focused on tournament play with the goal of winning so that there is effectively Competitive Leagues, Tournaments, and Tournament prep games. This takes place in both 30K and 40K communities.

 

I am also part of two small sub-communities: one is a small group of just my friends who happen to play for funsies, and it's great for me. We play a lot against each other, overwhelmingly 8th edition and use a lot of the updated Chapter approved missions, or Open Play card options for certain aspects just to make a game fun and narratively exciting. We don't play with any 'meta' consideration and generally are just excited to get new and fun units on the board and try out something on a weekday afternoon on a day off. We don't use PL because we're used to points, but Open Play cards are totally cool, and Maelstrom Missions are our usual jam.

 

The second circle is a splinter faction of dissatisfied 30K players that are very narrative-based. We all exist inside the greater 30K circle and many are burnt out, dissatisfied, and frustrated with the way the mindset has evolved. This is getting to be close to the 'last straw' with some private invite tournaments and expressly mentioned events that are really trying to grow that circle in the absence of the more competitive elements, or to try and ween back some previously narrative players who have been 'corrupted' by the Smash or Die mentality pervasive to the environment (we had people who started with an enthusiastic narrative focus, but thanks to the community evolution, focused strictly on unit efficiency and list creation. It's not because it's what they wanted, but because it was the only way to avoid devastation at the hands of particular super-units or renown players in league and pick up games)

 

 

Given that I've got admin privileges in the local community group now, I'm gonna be trying to push for exactly what you lot are proposing and seeing if maybe I can try to turn things around.  So I'm fundamentally trying to do my part to make this better.  Maybe if I appeal to said 'past glories' I can roll out a narrative campaign starting at Istvaan and maybe, just maybe, shunt some of the 30K focus back onto its absolutely unmatched themes and scenarios, rather than having it sit right alongside 8E as a seasonal ranked standing. system.

 

Oh...

There is something glorious about  the knights of my household just completely ignoring small arms fire in  30k where it can ping them down in 40k. 
 

I basically never reply in .gif form outside my usual facebook conversations, but...

*as the guy usually running 2-4 large tactical squads in Storm Eagles and the like*

 

 

 

[mughi3]

Hungry Nostraman Lizard

 

well said across all points. when we play 30K we do use 2 slight variations-5th edition psyker rules-none of this dice warhammer fantasy pool/phase nonsense-make a LD check when you need to use the power in its correct phase (shootng melee etc..) and move on.

 

we also do not use hull points-we have a vehicle damage chart, that's enough, 2 damage systems at once is redundant and un necessary.

Edited December 29, 2019 by mughi3

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

@vykes, I definitely recommend the narrative campaign to get people out of their "the gerbil demands I crush my opponent, or he chews my brain stem" mentality. Maps. I find that maps help a lot of people get invested in some narrative besides lots of words. Analyze what armies people use, and try and create a large enough system on which to play a tug-of-war. A system tends to have enough planets to allow enough sandbox believab-ility, and is large enough to allow several armies worth of ships and mini fleets to be idle and active in. 

[ProsperoStands]

Alright, I've read through most of the thread now or skimmed a significant chunk. To answer the original question;

 

"Are you guys mostly satisfied about where WH30k is at right now?"

 

Yes, yes I am. I've transitioned exclusively to 30k as a system for a number of reasons. I find it more nuanced than 40k/8th is, I'll try to break up those reasons into categories.

 

 

Narrative; 

 

It offers the narrative that I'm searching for, Legions over Chapters any day of the week. I love the flexibility that such numerous militant arms allow. That I can carve my own niche within tens of thousands feels very pleasant. That I can say that in a homebrew campaign my 42nd have taken hundreds of losses, it feels believable. Something about the gravitas of so many marines dying feels intense without the feeling of irreplaceable lost, like in 40k. I also heavily, heavily dislike primaris and the new narrative/lore direction that is being taken in the "on going" setting. Primaris still feel hamfisted to me, and the entirety of the new publications coming out feels too advert heavy. "Check out our new primaris with stalker bolters and their new ride!" I personally also just preferred when the setting was stagnant, but I digress. This section alone, I could write an essay on.

 

The scale;

 

Isn't what bothers me as I true-scale my marines. I love the actual upscaling of marines to be more in-line with how their lore representation should be. I would appreciate it if things like mark 2* 5* was rereleased in a more "enbiggened" state via plastics. I also like the updated vehicle sizes, except for...

 

 

The Models/modeling;

 

Their new aesthetic is super busy in all the wrong ways for Warhammer. The kits look too "tacticool", and while I love portraying my models with plenty of ammo pouches and webbing and such on them, at some point less is more. The repulsor has too much of something, I can't even nail it down. Also the grav tech being suddenly everywhere. This point can be in the narrative section as well (seriously, grav-tech is supposed to be RARE and misunderstood). Astartes vehicles should be bricks with massive treads, or at least huge wheels. My two cents.

 

*edit* I love that AoD has rules for things that don't even have a model for them. GW's new line of thinking seems to be "If it doesn't have a model, it has no rules." Bahumbug! And stiffle the communities creativity and kitbashing? That's what I adore about 30k! I LOVE to see all the ways people make X/Y/Z character on a bike, or with jumppack. There are no rules for an apothecary on a bike in 40k. Why? It's abirtrary, and because they haven't made a model for it. It's irritating, and this all boils back down to the chapter-house lawsuit a few  years back. GW proper is so afraid of being burned by that again, it haunts and hurts the community, in my opinion. 

 

TDLR: It's the generalization and loss of 'warhammer'esq aesthetic that the new sculpts have in abundance. I saw someone paint up the reivers in a Halo universe color scheme, and a Starwars clone scheme... and the figures looked like they 'belonged'. Try that with any of the older marine sculpts, it'll look too bizarre. 

 

Painting;

 

Paint-wise, the 30k setting/community has always gone for a more realistic approach to their paintjobs (this is a generalization, but I digress), and the official models often reflected it too, to a certain time period. Look at the older Legion specific sculpts and vehicles/dreadnoughts and their preview/box art and then compare it to the later releases. Less edge-highlights, more chipping and battle damage. Vehicles would utilize more advanced techniques, weathering powders, etc. It gave the whole setting a much more grounded, believable foundation. Realism in my sci-fi? Shocking, but subjectively, I appreciate this a lot more. It's that tiny bit that allows me to think: "Hey, this can be plausible"

 

Game Mechanics;

 

Eighth edition with me has become too competitive. Let me extrapolate on that. With the introduction of CP's, it felt very nice. It still feels nice to re-roll that one die per round. However, the alpha-striking in eighth felt too pronounced, and the more CP you could dump into some disgusting combo turned me away from it. I think this became a really big problem around the introduction of the Knight Valiant and the "Loyal 32" meta. I haven't kept up with 8th almost at all since, so I don't even know if that's a thing that's still doable with the CP-farm. Since this, everything about 8th edition, even down to list building feels too much "how viable is my list? Can I table a knight in one round of shooting? Do I have a deletion answer to X/Y/Z?", and that turns me away. 

 

I like the simplification of psychic powers. I don't like how limited the schools of psychic powers is though. Again, I'm mostly comparing base-ish 8th versus AoD. If we can have the simplified casting, with all the various trees/schools to pick from, I would be pleased. 

 

I'm too in love with challenges, and heroic interventions don't do it for me. 

 

I am also in favor of the cover system a lot more. True-sight is beautiful, and the fact that you can see a tiny portion of my landraider's front tread, thus allowing you to shoot at it is dumb. The vehicle is heavily obscured, with all the benefits of such. I like that my marines can opt to take a cover save or their armor save, and their armor isn't magically improved upon, somehow. 

 

Back to vehicles -  angling for weaponry makes sense. Sponsons feel awesome when you align them all properly, and get the maximum amount of guns on target. Doesn't make sense that my massive super heavy was able to pivot in the 6 seconds (I'm using the DnD rule of 6 for each combat round as a sort of generalization here, but sometimes it helps your imagination flow) and fire all of those guns and then pivot back.

 

Pie templates do slow the game down, but they feel more satisfying to use than a randomized roll. Subjective opinion. On the matter, I think the pouring over the list of stratagems you have available to you (especially with how many more there are now since I last played) has replaced the "cut/removed" time loss of removing templates. Thinking back to my last few games of 8th edition, waiting as my opponent um'd and ehm'd face down in their books picking out a stratagem to use, it was incredibly dissatisfying. At least with templates I can see what they're thinking, and I am more engaged as I look upon where the barrage might be landing. 

 

Before I leave my TDLR, I leave this gem from the Horus Heresy Crusade group on facebook.

 

 

So, to summarize - there's a lot of things I think AoD could borrow from 8E, such as; the scaling of new marines. The less headache of the psychic phase (without the loss of many powers). However, as a whole - I love the setting and will continue to build my armies for this setting. If it sees improvement, great! If the system was to truly be "killed off" (aka no more support in anyway) I am sure I and my gaming buds would continue to play it. Halo Fleet Battles was killed off years back, and yet there's a fan gathering of it at Adepticon 2020, so it just shows us all that no matter where our passions lie or which system we feel loyalty to - as long as there's passion, these systems live on.

 

-edit- I will say this... give us Atramentar models, FW. pls.

 

-edit #2- This should go into the modeling aspect as well... but I love that AoD has rules for things that don't even have a model for them. GW's new line of thinking seems to be "If it doesn't have a model, it has no rules." Bahumbug! And stiffle the communities creativity and kitbashing? That's what I adore about 30k! I LOVE to see all the ways people make X/Y/Z character on a bike, or with jumppack. There are no rules for an apothecary on a bike in 40k. Why? It's abirtrary, and because they haven't made a model for it. It's irritating, and this all boils back down to the chapter-house lawsuit a few  years back. GW proper is so afraid of being burned by that again, it haunts and hurts the community, in my opinion. 

 

Lizard out!

 

 

This. Exactly this. Thank you!

[Vykes]

@vykes, I definitely recommend the narrative campaign to get people out of their "the gerbil demands I crush my opponent, or he chews my brain stem" mentality. Maps. I find that maps help a lot of people get invested in some narrative besides lots of words. Analyze what armies people use, and try and create a large enough system on which to play a tug-of-war. A system tends to have enough planets to allow enough sandbox believab-ility, and is large enough to allow several armies worth of ships and mini fleets to be idle and active in. 

 

Admittedly we've done it before, we have our own established warzone, maps, and backstories, and it still turned straight into a Free For All Ranked Standing League battling for top spot even without prize support of the like.  We've got a lot of players, a group of 100+ and about 16-20 that are always active (though I have been hearing more and more rumours of burnout but talking to the other admins, I'm the only one it seems).  I'm just seeing if maybe I can keep it more consistent and do some writing/updates which may help*.

 

The problems with the current AoD group is: it's pretty elitist and tournament focused with hard internecine divisions, and it's hard to start into the group because 2.5K is our standard games and it goes up from there... and most insist AoD doesn't scale well below 2K so getting new players interested is tough while seeing 8E played at 1K-1.5K is normal.  I'm starting to wonder if Deception games may be the key to starting out new players and clawing back from the tourney mentality, then incorporating maps and narrative on team-based metrics.  

 

As a general comment my good lizardy mate (and everyone else that was able to say 'this' with a straight face) count yourself real   lucky because legit, we don't all have it this good.  If that's your experiences, you have a charmed group dynamic.  Or I'm in hell.  Hell is very possible too. 

 

*I've done it before, got maps and even all my .psd files for writing all these things up, it's a matter of insanity: perhaps I can do 'the thing' different and it'll bring it back in vogue if only I try really hard. Man, even for an bright eyed rainbowy optimist like me this is sounding delusional. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Vykes

[Marshal Rohr]

Pick the most narrative focused players in your group and cut the rest out. Also, have the Game Master shift the game requirements away from what competitive builds favor. Edited December 29, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Marshal Vespasian]

I am pretty excited for what is to Come With my group as The heresy Players are basicly a newly formed subgroup of our Club.

There is however a healthy playerbase with regular events in my part of the country that we will propably latch on to.

Next Weekend we want to do a mini zone mortalis 1k event and chat about what we want to do for a campaign coming up.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Marshal Vespasian

[Baluc]

Admittedly we've done it before, we have our own established warzone, maps, and backstories, and it still turned straight into a Free For All Ranked Standing League battling for top spot even without prize support of the like. We've got a lot of players, a group of 100+ and about 16-20 that are always active (though I have been hearing more and more rumours of burnout but talking to the other admins, I'm the only one it seems). I'm just seeing if maybe I can keep it more consistent and do some writing/updates which may help*.

 

The problems with the current AoD group is: it's pretty elitist and tournament focused with hard internecine divisions, and it's hard to start into the group because 2.5K is our standard games and it goes up from there... and most insist AoD doesn't scale well below 2K so getting new players interested is tough while seeing 8E played at 1K-1.5K is normal. I'm starting to wonder if Deception games may be the key to starting out new players and clawing back from the tourney mentality, then incorporating maps and narrative on team-based metrics.

 

As a general comment my good lizardy mate (and everyone else that was able to say 'this' with a straight face) count yourself real lucky because legit, we don't all have it this good. If that's your experiences, you have a charmed group dynamic. Or I'm in hell. Hell is very possible too.

 

*I've done it before, got maps and even all my .psd files for writing all these things up, it's a matter of insanity: perhaps I can do 'the thing' different and it'll bring it back in vogue if only I try really hard. Man, even for an bright eyed rainbowy optimist like me this is sounding delusional.

The problem with the AoD ruleset is that the missions are largely competitive. Both sides are competing to complete the same goal and therefore it will shape the way any person perceives their army.

 

This is a human nature thing not a gamey thing. What makes a person gamey and usually what drives other people away from gamey people is the lack of loyalty to anything besides winning. But even the fluffiest player would prefer to be successful, the difference is they would prefer to be successful doing it the way they want to do it. So some people will love and die by the results of their OA SoH or BA.

 

You bypass this by giving each player different mission objectives. This way they are playing a game together not against each other, and the result is not about who beat the other it is about who was more successful at their task. It is what makes games like Powergrid fun until the end of the game when scores are compared.

 

This also has the benefit of opening the utility of units beyound their capacity to horribly oppress other units via damage or be cheap enough and score.

 

Ironically the most interesting narratives in the black books and Black library books represent this idea. The least interesting narratives are the ones like Molech a straight up grinding objective assault vs objective defence. That is the majority of the ApD missions.

 

If there was more narrative objectives like destroying the opponent's CMD structure or using scoring points for stopping the opponent from progressing up the board, rather than simply having an objective at the end of the clock.

 

Simply there is a distinct lack of understanding of games in general. I don't think they (the HH team so as it is) really know how to translate the narrative writing into a workable mechanical game engine. And, that is why we end up with toxic competitive scenes anytime the game becomes the focus. Because the game is basically about destroying your friends toys, and not letting your friend destroy your toys first.

 

TL;DR communities become toxic and competitive because the game is a competition, when it should be co-operative. The core rules shouldn't have stand alone missions at its center.

 

HH events are still run as competitions, if you don't want competitive behaviour don't run competitions. I think generally tournament organizers are afraid of asking attendees of too much too soon. And I get it running an event is expensive and time consuming so you need seats in bums.

 

I've been trying to figure out what exactly about 8th killed HH. It's clearly not the actual mechanics, because I have less than zero interest in 40k. I am starting to believe that is the hope in the possibility of 8th edition. 7th HH was a known quality and the limits of the system were clear. But the hope of rebirth through 8th edition is and was a compelling narrative and it's hard to kill narratives.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's kind of funny, because the thing I like most about 30k and non itc/maelstrom 40k is that I feel like I'm actually playing against someone instead of two people playing their own games that on the same table. Divergent scoring and win conditions can really break the need to interact over the board, similar to how too simple a win condition (like kill points) breaks interaction.

 

I've seen a crimson fury daemon list just plow through to victory by literally brainlessly going forward. No need to contest points on the board, take cover, or do anything else besides get locked in melee. The marine player couldn't do anything, because even if he had out maneuvered and claimed all the objectives by the end of the game and got all secondaries, he was limited to 15 total vps, and the daemon player got something like 18.

[Baluc]

That is narrative gaming though. The problem in that scenerio is that the Legion player was prevented from playing the game reciprocally. If instead of scoring at the end of the game he scored ever turn or some similarly active scoring mechanic as the daemon player the game is actually much more interesting, the daemon player has to focus on taking units scoring, and every delay is a tactical problem.

 

But missions are much more than just how you score.

[Vykes]

 

[my usual white noise]

The problem with the AoD ruleset is that the missions are largely competitive. Both sides are competing to complete the same goal and therefore it will shape the way any person perceives their army.

...

 

If there was more narrative objectives like destroying the opponent's CMD structure or using scoring points for stopping the opponent from progressing up the board, rather than simply having an objective at the end of the clock.

 

 

Eeeeh, I definitely see your point Baluc my dude, though Skimaskmohawk did kinda nail down one of my big worries.  One of the most frustrating things around when dealing with the non-astares armies are the forces that just don't fundamentally play the same game as a legion player: Knight armies basically ignore any sort of secure objectives and focus on tabling or removing scoring units, while Daemon armies play their own game the whole time.  It definitely doesn't help that those win-conditions are pretty much 'destroy your friends toys' as you aptly said  .  

 

But I do agree: I wish more emphasis was placed on cumulatively taking and holding objectives (or denying 'zones' to enemy forces), crippling command structures, a little bit more turn-to-turn scoring rather than end-loading the results of games.   And to that extent,  I agree that the AoD 'main book' missions are a little drab.  In a flip of irony (compared to Skimaskmohawk) the LVO pack secondaries have been a little more fun, and the psuedo-maelstrom and maelstrom games have always been some of my favourites because of the turn-to-turn nature and asymmetry involved.  But I do have to add that caveat that I enjoy maelstrom asymmetry in smaller games 1.5K and less, because it rewards maneuvering and some gutsy decision making over straight killing potential.  

 

As for human nature vs. gamey nature... eeeeeeeeh that's a longer one.  I've seen a lot of particularly Pavlovian responses and defensive behavioral conditioning when certain players/mindsets were introduced.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Vykes

[Baluc]

 

 

 

[my usual white noise]

The problem with the AoD ruleset is that the missions are largely competitive. Both sides are competing to complete the same goal and therefore it will shape the way any person perceives their army.

...

 

If there was more narrative objectives like destroying the opponent's CMD structure or using scoring points for stopping the opponent from progressing up the board, rather than simply having an objective at the end of the clock.

Eeeeh, I definitely see your point Baluc my dude, though Skimaskmohawk did kinda nail down one of my big worries. One of the most frustrating things around when dealing with the non-astares armies are the forces that just don't fundamentally play the same game as a legion player: Knight armies basically ignore any sort of secure objectives and focus on tabling or removing scoring units, while Daemon armies play their own game the whole time. It definitely doesn't help that those win-conditions are pretty much 'destroy your friends toys' as you aptly said .

 

But I do agree: I wish more emphasis was placed on cumulatively taking and holding objectives (or denying 'zones' to enemy forces), crippling command structures, a little bit more turn-to-turn scoring rather than end-loading the results of games. And to that extent, I agree that the AoD 'main book' missions are a little drab. In a flip of irony (compared to Skimaskmohawk) the LVO pack secondaries have been a little more fun, and the psuedo-maelstrom and maelstrom games have always been some of my favourites because of the turn-to-turn nature and asymmetry involved. But I do have to add that caveat that I enjoy maelstrom asymmetry in smaller games 1.5K and less, because it rewards maneuvering and some gutsy decision making over straight killing potential.

 

As for human nature vs. gamey nature... eeeeeeeeh that's a longer one. I've seen a lot of particularly Pavlovian responses and defensive behavioral conditioning when certain players/mindsets were introduced.

Actually if you are trying to come up with a system that encourages other kinds of behaviour I have some early design stuff you could run with. HH is basically dead in my communities so I won't get much use out of it.

[Fallen11]

 

Actually if you are trying to come up with a system that encourages other kinds of behaviour I have some early design stuff you could run with. HH is basically dead in my communities so I won't get much use out of it.

 

 

It was dead in mine too since 8th came...then we discovered 8th HH fan made rules and game quite often. But problem is, mostly who gets firs turn can literally obliterate at least 1/3 of opposing army, after that is kinda more or less concluded who will win the game. Still trying to come with solution how to fix that alfa strike 1st turn problem. But this was always problem.

[ProsperoStands]

 

 

Actually if you are trying to come up with a system that encourages other kinds of behaviour I have some early design stuff you could run with. HH is basically dead in my communities so I won't get much use out of it.

 

 

It was dead in mine too since 8th came...then we discovered 8th HH fan made rules and game quite often. But problem is, mostly who gets firs turn can literally obliterate at least 1/3 of opposing army, after that is kinda more or less concluded who will win the game. Still trying to come with solution how to fix that alfa strike 1st turn problem. But this was always problem.

 

Go back to normal 30k?

[Brother Styphus]

That's still a problem in normal 30k.

[MegaVolt87]

First turn advantage has been a thing for 40k since the beginning. It's more a feature at this point. 

[Gorgoff]

 

Actually if you are trying to come up with a system that encourages other kinds of behaviour I have some early design stuff you could run with. HH is basically dead in my communities so I won't get much use out of it.

 

It was dead in mine too since 8th came...then we discovered 8th HH fan made rules and game quite often. But problem is, mostly who gets firs turn can literally obliterate at least 1/3 of opposing army, after that is kinda more or less concluded who will win the game. Still trying to come with solution how to fix that alfa strike 1st turn problem. But this was always problem.

Edit:

Forgot to put words in here :)

Most 40k/30k players tend to play in tablet which look like the 5 on a D6.

One piece of terrain in the middle, two in each deployment zone.

That's the whole reason why first strike in general and shooting armies in particular are way to good.

Play with as much like of sight blocking terrain as possible and at least 50% of the table should be littered with some kind of stuff.

Only then you get reasonable games.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Gorgoff