State of the HH vs 40k 8th edition

[Fajita Fan]

And I’ve said elsewhere earlier that if they think sales growth would be higher porting the rules to the mainstream 8th (read the current GW financials) or future 9th edition then that will be the direction they go anecdotal examples aside.

 

Sales high enough to continue production is a nice thing but most publicly traded companies are more interested in sales growth. The more GW grows given 8th edition 40k and AoS sales the greener that grass will seem on the other side. This is coming from someone who misses WHFB movement trays and square bases. :(

 

Like I said earlier I’m hoping for one system that maybe fuels growth for both settings and gets us more players. High five anyone?

[m0nolith]

And I’ve said elsewhere earlier that if they think sales growth would be higher porting the rules to the mainstream 8th (read the current GW financials) or future 9th edition then that will be the direction they go anecdotal examples aside.

Sales high enough to continue production is a nice thing but most publicly traded companies are more interested in sales growth. The more GW grows given 8th edition 40k and AoS sales the greener that grass will seem on the other side. This is coming from someone who misses WHFB movement trays and square bases. :(

Like I said earlier I’m hoping for one system that maybe fuels growth for both settings and gets us more players. High five anyone?

Keeping HH as a different rule set is exactly what’s going to increase growth. This way GW caters both to the customer base that enjoys a simpler approach to gameplay as well as those who like a more complex type of game.

They know what they are doing, this is why they’re releasing The Old World and marketing it as “the HH to the world of Sigmar”.

They know exactly what they were saying there, how we would take it and what they were marketing it as.

 

And speaking of the GW financials, in it GW has stated that 30k as one of its three key brands, the other two being 40k and Sigmar, meaning they make a clear distinction between 40k and 30k.

 

The simple fact is that if 30k wasn’t profitable for them then they would have switched to to another system by now. But they didn’t, and they have stated repeatedly that it’s not going to be switched to 8th. To but it simply, GW thinks it will lose more customers by switching it to 8th than the number they would gain. 8th players already play 40k, 30k is here so they can profit from players that aren’t fans of 8th.

 

In the end FW did state that it’s Heresy sales are very healthy, and given the fact the studio is now expanding again, it seems that 30k is doing well, contrary to 3 or so doomsayers on these forums. That statement from FW is the most reliable thing we have when it comes to what’s actually happening inside FW, and I’m inclined to trust that more than any speculations and protestations.

Edited December 4, 2019 by m0nolith

[Brofist]

Its also why they plan to give the old world a HH treatment.

 

To use a more real world example, think of Audi and Volkswagen. Same company, different labels and slightly different products even though they share parts. The parent company makes more money by appealing to a wider audience at different price points.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I would actually really like for 40k to share the same basic attack, defense, stat, and movement mechanics with skirmish games like Necromunda.  Then for a squad-based skirmish game like Necromunda or Kill Team they could add in more complex systems like knockdowns or more complex melee rules.  Imagine zooming in on a 40k battle and focusing on one fight in one trench, that'd be the KT/Necro rules.

 

 

Funnily enough, that used to be the case. The previous version of Necromunda was pretty much 2nd ed 40k with a few additions like injury rolls when you hit 0 wounds, ammo rolls etc.

 

[Fajita Fan]

Its also why they plan to give the old world a HH treatment.

 

To use a more real world example, think of Audi and Volkswagen. Same company, different labels and slightly different products even though they share parts. The parent company makes more money by appealing to a wider audience at different price points.

I understand price points and don’t think $148 US for the HH rulebook and marine army books is fueling increased growth of the game. If everyone was clambering to pay that much for rulebooks it’d be much harder to find pdf copies of them all over the internet - making the basic rules free was one of GW’s best moves to help grow 8th and AoS.

 

Either way it seems like some of you love the mechanics of 7th and I’m not here to convince you of anything. I don’t hope the game gets dumbed down to spite you (8th Ed’s FAQ is nearly as long as the rules themselves) but does anyone else miss 4th ed? I’m not the kind of player who feels the need to play the Audi version of anything - I traded in my VW GTI for an SUV that doesn’t have to spend a day in the shop every few months. :D. Heck I’m having fun gluing guns to Hot Wheels for Gaslands.

 

I really wish they’d do 30k Epic along with AT, that would be a fun system for more of us. I understood from comments made that AT is part of FW’s growth and that releases slowed down because they don’t have enough people for it.

[WITCHKING501]

 

I understand price points and don’t think $148 US for the HH rulebook and marine army books is fueling increased growth of the game. If everyone was clambering to pay that much for rulebooks it’d be much harder to find pdf copies of them all over the internet - making the basic rules free was one of GW’s best moves to help grow 8th and AoS.

 

 

8th Edition has never had free rules.

As for the state of it, as people have said, one of the main reasons for coming back to the Heresy and 7th for me boils down to a few things.

 

1. Friendlier and more welcoming community.

2. Less rules bloat (in 8th to run a marines list nowadays you need 4 or 5 books and a handful of FAQs)

3. The models themselves.

4. A more Complex rules system. (8th random rolls for number of shots/hits for me personally isn't satisfying as putting a blast marker down)

 

Thats just a few of the reasons why I hope it stays in 7th. Having a distinct rules system away from 8th is the biggest pull for me. I love the complexity. If you want to run your legion in 8th you can do for the most part, there are very few models from the generic Legion Astartes list you cannot use in 8th. 

 

I see no reason why FW would port it over to 8th.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Imo there are a few things that AoD can adapt from 8th (and presumably other gw systems, but I haven't played them so....).

 

Movement: granular movement can be very useful and thematic. However, this would have to come with a heavy rebalancing as some will get chopped and will heavily suffer if just left in the dust (like cataphractii terminators who can't deepstrike natively and can't really support long range firepower). It's gotta be intelligently done, not like 8ths go at things.

 

Weapon skill and to-hit rolls: sanguinius hitting with 6 of his 11 attacks because of a slightly below average hit roll feels bad man. Similarly, perturabo getting mobbed down by a swarm of night lords that hit him on 3s despite his ws 8 also feels wonky. Restructure the ws chart similar to the to-wound chart; 2 points of ws higher means you hit on 2s and are hit on 5s, double ws still hits them on 2s but is only hit on 6s in return. This lets praetors and other high ws charactors have more of an impact in melee while giving granularity and keeping the ws vs ws dynamic. Points adjustments are necessary on this one too.

 

Monstrous creature degradation: this one is kind of a no brainer and the biggest current issue with the 7th ed rule system; monstrous creatures require far more fire power to be put down than a walker/tank and stay at full effect until dead. A castellax is far, far more resistant to high strength weapons than a contemptor prime as an example. Creating degrade charts for MCs or implementing a universal stat drop at half and 1/4 wounds would create parity and granularity, without giving up my sweet sweet vehicle facings or fire arcs. But once again, it would require points adjustments.

 

Those are all the big things I can think of off the top that could benefit from 8th inspired changes.

 

I skimmed through some comments about alternate activation and alpha strike and armies getting hammered turn 1 from shooting. I think in terms of indirect fire weapons, they need to take inspiration from old editions for their ruin rules (which they designed the game around). I'd honestly say it'd cut the problem units down by a lot.

 

But speaking of terrain, that's what fixes long range direct fire. Resist the call of the resin crack and dedicate your next few purchases to good ruins that don't have a ton of windows. I'm very lucky in that my group has a great array of Los blocking pieces; my 2500 point iron warrior list I played on Friday had 25 rockets a turn, plus 5 autocannon havocs and pert supporting 20 of the rockets. I went first and I killed a contemptor on turn 1, an arcus on turn 2 and nothing else after that with all that long range fire power. My opponent was able to use deployment and positioning in subsequent turns to deny los to his units to the point where the game rested on winning a primarch duel and a bunch of luck for me to claw back the win. (Sorry for the repeat if you read the N&R thread).

 

Those are my thoughts on improvements to the system.

[Marshal Rohr]

One thing from 8th I fully support is a Heresy specific variation of the Detachments (but not CP/Strategems). Instead of the slightly different variants, I want 8th to make you build several detachments of different things into one master detachment. Feels more like the way the Heresy Legions were organized.  

[BBadger]

So I don't post here much at all, but I do read what you guys have to say. 

 

I'm a player who had to take a break from the hobby during 5th edition and I have time to come back to it now. Initially I was quite excited by 8th ed and it's promises of a no frills game system. I was never much of a gamer, more interested in hobbying and narrative writing. 

 

But this honeymoon period has ended. What I loved most about 40K before my break was the lore, and the plot advances break the narrative atmosphere of 4th/5th ed lore. Others have gone into more detail, the point is it just isn't for me. Furthermore, the simplified rules, while making games "easier" do reduce the narrative immersion of games. Bolters killing tanks etc.

 

That said, I never actually found 4th or 5th ed rules hard to play with, even as an 11 year old. So for me 7th ed plays very intuitively as it's the system I grew up with. However, this is only the secondary consideration for my move to 30K.

 

The main reason for me is the lore. It's rich, it's familiar, its grimdark, and it just keeps getting better. Also, it can't really be meddled with, so my "old school marines" which no longer have support in 40K will never die. The 7th ed rules match this detailed, narrative driven, setting much better IMO.

 

Just adding my own perspective to the conversation. I'm sure there are others who think like me. I'm definitely a fan of Brofist's Audi/Volkswagen analogy. Heresy provides what 40K doesn't and vice versa. So to me 30K should move in a direction desired by 30K players, and 40k by 40K. From what i've seen of the world elsewhere, catering to a theorised wider audience at the expense of an established base doesn't work out very often. 30K does have a very good and healthy base. 

 

I'd be an advocate for rules changes which play to 30K's strengths. Detail, narrative. 8th has shown how we can make the rules more efficient without losing those elements in some aspects, (BS 3+ over BS4, key words, etc.) but it has also shown that there is a line to be crossed (bolters killing tanks, loss of AV system and templates). 30K is now it's own beast and should continue as such. 

 

All that said, if nothing was to change I'd be a happy man. This hobby is expensive and time consuming. I have other commitments. Keeping up with relentless rules changes costs money and time. 

[Gederas]

Things I'd like from 8th in a Horus Heresy 2.0:

1. The Weapon Skill/Ballistic Skill system (just print what I need to roll to hit, I don't want to do math every time I try to shoot something)
2. Like Rohr said, Detachments (but not CP/Strategems)
3. The AP system (but in a more refined manner)
4. The Strength/Toughness system for wounding. Not on vehicles, but on anything else. Vehicles should be their own thing.

This is all I'd need. Because in doing things like that, you'd be able to make it so non-30k players could pick up the game easier.

 

Its also why they plan to give the old world a HH treatment.

 

To use a more real world example, think of Audi and Volkswagen. Same company, different labels and slightly different products even though they share parts. The parent company makes more money by appealing to a wider audience at different price points.

Or really, any car company that has a baseline brand and luxury marquee. Chevrolet+GMC/Buick+Cadillac, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti, Ford/Lincoln, etc. You're still buying the same thing, essentially, one is just prettier

 

(though in the case of Cadillac, far, far less reliable than the baseline )

Edited December 4, 2019 by Gederas

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I prefer vehicles with toughness and wounds vs AV and hull points. It’s much more fair versus admech.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Mechanicum is unfair for a whole whack of reasons. The disparity between the vehicles and mcs is certainly one, but it's moreso on their absolutely bonkers points costs and breadth of options. Theres nothing in the legion list that rivals a krios venator; a triaros has the frontal resilience of a Spartan for 2/5th the cost; the mechanicum termite is 15 points cheaper than the equivalent legion one for...no reason; adsecularis are honestly a cancer.

 

I personally love the tactical side of vehicle facings and disrupting a tank via shaken and stuff, something that the current system is built around. However, if a wound based system could replicate those mechanics I'd be more in favor of wounds and high toughness. 8th just bungled it all so badly with its changes to vehicles, to-wound, AP and damage that it's hard to think of a version that functions with the rest of 7ths mechanics. Much easier to fix MCs imo.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I agree toughness and wounds for vehicles was overall poorly implemented but it could be fixed and work well. If FW see the game as beer and pretzels like Necromunda then they’ll prolly stick with the existing rules but if they are really serious it will all has to change.

[Fajita Fan]

Things I'd like from 8th in a Horus Heresy 2.0:

1. The Weapon Skill/Ballistic Skill system (just print what I need to roll to hit, I don't want to do math every time I try to shoot something)
2. Like Rohr said, Detachments (but not CP/Strategems)
3. The AP system (but in a more refined manner)
4. The Strength/Toughness system for wounding. Not on vehicles, but on anything else. Vehicles should be their own thing.

This is all I'd need. Because in doing things like that, you'd be able to make it so non-30k players could pick up the game easier.

 

Its also why they plan to give the old world a HH treatment.

 

To use a more real world example, think of Audi and Volkswagen. Same company, different labels and slightly different products even though they share parts. The parent company makes more money by appealing to a wider audience at different price points.

Or really, any car company that has a baseline brand and luxury marquee. Chevrolet+GMC/Buick+Cadillac, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti, Ford/Lincoln, etc. You're still buying the same thing, essentially, one is just prettier

 

(though in the case of Cadillac, far, far less reliable than the baseline )

One thing I liked about 8th was AP applying armor save modifiers like Fantasy (and I guess 2nd ed 40k? I joined in 3rd ed) as it makes a lot more weapons more useful.  There are so many guns in the 30k army lists I skip over because they're AP5 or AP4 because AP3 is so much more useful when 99% of your targets have 3+ saves.  

 

 

I prefer vehicles with toughness and wounds vs AV and hull points. It’s much more fair versus admech.

Yes. I hated watching people turn, turn again, check LoS, turn a tiny fraction of an inch, check LoS again, then tell me I'm still hitting front armor when it looks to me like I'm still in the side arc. 

[Brofist]

Yeah, AP modifiers are a great mechanic.

[Marshal Rohr]

As long as Terminator Armor can’t be modified or negates modification by several points I wouldn’t hate it.

[Noserenda]

 

2:I was replying to Noserenda who's only input is that AoD rules are stupid and HH players are elitist snobs. I still stand by what I said earlier - there's no rules barrier, only willingnes to learn them. Not to mention I highly doubt that people who are so vocal about changing HH rules to 8th will suddenly start playing it should it ever happen. If you like Heresy you'd be playing it right now, if you don't, I don't believe you will with the new rules. Applies to 40k either.

 

 

Acting like a snob and violating the board rules doing it really does not help your "we arent elitist" case :D Some really weird/insulting assumptions about my knowledge and posting behaviour too, so id consider that too. Ive got well over 30,000 points of 30k painted under my belt even if ive had to sell a chunk off over the years and im more than capable of handling to hit and wound charts ive been playing with for over 2 decades, they arent the problem, in fact i agree they arent even hard to learn, though the hit one is superfluous in a system with barely any modifiers. I also talk about a lot more things than how bad 7th is, its just it constantly disappoints me, much like parts of the Heresy community do :P 

 

My chief problems with 7th are how convoluted it has gotten over the years, its an old game patched and patched and patched until its stretched at the seams, sections of it are trying so hard not to go backwards they are deeply convoluted, chiefly the movement system which has dozens of special rules instead of the old fixed values of 2nd and 8th. Thats the sort of thing scattered throughout, exceptions and special cases packed so deep it lost all elegance. Id go into more detail but im pretty sure id either be ignored or preaching to the choir given the way things have switched up in here.

 

And yes, the dying community is a thing, im not arrogant enough to say its universal but certainly in my experience there are a lot fewer players to play and web traffic to browse than there has been in the past, largely because folks have games they are more interested in playing rather than anything to do with the lore or setting, its just the rules which are the sticking point.

 

I actually have quite high hopes for the Mournival folks, they are taking the actual spirit of the heresy forwards with their stuff a lot better than FW is managing to, im just gutted they are literally on the other side of the planet.

[MegaVolt87]

Yeah, AP modifiers are a great mechanic.

It's great when heavy vehicles are more vulnerable to massed chip dmg via bolted fire than dedicated AT? AP has its own problems.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

2:I was replying to Noserenda who's only input is that AoD rules are stupid and HH players are elitist snobs. I still stand by what I said earlier - there's no rules barrier, only willingnes to learn them. Not to mention I highly doubt that people who are so vocal about changing HH rules to 8th will suddenly start playing it should it ever happen. If you like Heresy you'd be playing it right now, if you don't, I don't believe you will with the new rules. Applies to 40k either.

 

 

My chief problems with 7th are how convoluted it has gotten over the years, its an old game patched and patched and patched until its stretched at the seams, sections of it are trying so hard not to go backwards they are deeply convoluted, chiefly the movement system which has dozens of special rules instead of the old fixed values of 2nd and 8th. Thats the sort of thing scattered throughout, exceptions and special cases packed so deep it lost all elegance. Id go into more detail but im pretty sure id either be ignored or preaching to the choir given the way things have switched up in here.

 

 

 

Ummm? What?

 

It's already been said once before, but correct me if I'm wrong, It was't the core rules or system of 7e that was the problem, it was the ridiculous supplements and formations and bloat that was added to the game because of it. The majority of what made 7e bad was isolated to 40k.. and yet some how 30k is getting twisted into that? 7e 40k left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths and those issues have little to do with 30k at all, I don't understand the rules based frustration with 30k. 7e was not as horrible as some are making it out to be. Why not just state you don't like 7e and leave it at that instead of making blanket statements?

 

I don't even know if most of those who were shouting the loudest in the room about the faults of 7e and 30k are really involved with HH/30k gaming or if they are just anti 7e trolls trying to dictate what WH is supposed to look like for everybody else.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Once again, the way 8th implemented it was so thoroughly terrible that it's hard to think of a system that integrates well with AoD. Now a lot of it had to do with the to-wound changes as well, but you have the heavy bolter going from a decent anti-infantry option to...well they threaten everything in the game, but their original target. Terminators have their share of problems in general, mainly their invul being useless against all but the most serious anti-tank and their armour being completely malleable. 

 

Armour save tanking can get a kind of ridiculous in unlucky circumstances, but from a thematic point of view thats the kind of thing I expect from power armour; auto cannons, meant to kill tanks, just deflecting off the armour and similarly missiles bouncing from terminators. Instead, those autocannons would just chew through both armours. Armour usually stops something right until it doesn't. Mechanically, well you currently pay for artificer specifically to add protection (there's something to be said about the points cost vis a vis protection added) and I literally couldn't see myself buying any 2+ armour if there was a system in place like 8ths (just the ap). No terminators, no artificer armour, just invul saves on characters (unless the unit sporting the armour is a really great one like suzerains, tyrants or the like). Just like 8th, the power would be in the cheapest, least armoured bodies.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I feel that landraider and vindicator chassis should be base T9 plus their should be a wargear option such that if they disengage from melee they can still shoot at unmodified BS. One of the basic problems with 8th Edition is the preponderance of favoritisms towards the keyword Fly.

[Fajita Fan]

As long as Terminator Armor can’t be modified or negates modification by several points I wouldn’t hate it.

In AoS there is armor that ignore Rend -1 weapons, it takes a really rending weapon to pierce it.

 

 

Yeah, AP modifiers are a great mechanic.

It's great when heavy vehicles are more vulnerable to massed chip dmg via bolted fire than dedicated AT? AP has its own problems.

 

This is what Adeptus Titanicus does well, it takes a certain strength to hurt various bits on various titans.  There's ways to make heavy vehicles more resilient to throwing handfuls of dice at it, I'd get behind that.  

[Gederas]

As long as Terminator Armor can’t be modified or negates modification by several points I wouldn’t hate it.

In AoS there is armor that ignore Rend -1 weapons, it takes a really rending weapon to pierce it.

Yeah, there's that stuff. Another option is you could have Terminator Armour ignore the first x number of AP, and if you manage to get past that, Invuln is still active?

 

Yeah, AP modifiers are a great mechanic.

It's great when heavy vehicles are more vulnerable to massed chip dmg via bolted fire than dedicated AT? AP has its own problems.

This is what Adeptus Titanicus does well, it takes a certain strength to hurt various bits on various titans.  There's ways to make heavy vehicles more resilient to throwing handfuls of dice at it, I'd get behind that. 

That could be interesting. :yes:

[m0nolith]

I'm totally open to aspects of 8th in AoD 2nd ed, as long as the feel and depth of the game remains to the level of AoD 1st ed. 

 

Edit: To clarify, there are very few aspects I would like to be included.

Edited December 5, 2019 by m0nolith

[Marshal Rohr]

No data sheets, though. USRs and Army Lists forever.