State of the HH vs 40k 8th edition

[Wolf Lord Duregar]

They could even add that in without math. Heavy bolter always treat Armor better than 4+ as a 4+ save. Armor 4+ or up gets no save.

 

Kinda rough on Terminators, no? -1 is not too bad though.. But many do not like modifiers?

 

It's up there on my list of annoying things in 8th like las guns being able to hurt land raiders, vehicles being monsterous creatures without need for facing or LOS from the weapon mounts(seriously breaks immersion, I still turn my dreadnoughts to face in game because it seems wrong otherwise) and loosing stable platform rules for dreads, terminators, bikes and aircraft.

 

 

I can absolutely understand that. But again playing the Devil´s Advocate - it put some balancing between monstrous creatures and vehicles. And stupid, kind of, stuff from older editions where Land Raiders could not split fire and you had glued the twin-linked lascannons at the back hatches and could only shoot one viable target per turn with the big, overcosted thing.. ;)

 

It is different, I have learned to live with the pros and cons.But some of the things bugs me too of course - no use flanking vehicles, but that is kinda mitigated that lasguns can, also wound them.. Even though it is stupid..

[Brofist]

They can take templates away from my cold dead hands

[Wolf Lord Duregar]

lol, fair enough. :) I like them too, just playing Devil´s Advocate a little bit..

 

Hopefully AoD stays where it is and it seems like what the community for the most part wants?

[Captain_Krash]

Horus Heresy should be treated like a Historical Wargame. Historical having a duel meaning.

 

Uses Older edition rules/Horus Heresy, Age of Darkness.

 

Krash 

[Hirmetrium]

I think that both HH and 8th could learn lessons from other games, including Adeptus Titanicus, by using alternative/staged activations, or even their own Apocalypse system where units can shoot before they are blasted off the board. I particularly like the alternating "chose which fight you want" in the combat phase from 8th too. It really conveys that everything is happening very quickly and simultaneously, rather than one army getting completely swept. There is nothing more frustrating than not having first turn, and then losing chunks of your army to fire power. You can't even move troops into cover out of your deployment zone, because your opponent can shoot first... maybe my time playing x-wing has coloured my thoughts a bit.

 

I will say that I actually really enjoy 8th, because there's a lot of weird stuff in 7th that just isn't fun (picking your warlord trait or physic powers vs rolling, fewer USR to remember/look up, the ability to reroll a critical dice that you needed to pay off on a brilliant tactical move, templates not wiping out your Boyz/Guardsmen)

 

That said, I really, really enjoy HH/AoD too. It's a unique, fun, brilliant game where army building is half the joy. Obviously it has it's own problems, and a lot of complexity, but... what doesn't? Nothing is a perfectly balanced masterpiece, and HH scratches that itch that nothing else seems to have done for me. I love it so much I'm starting a Loyalist force to oppose my Traitor force. I love that people have "their legion" and it's their thing, and they find others who also play that legion, and talk about how to beat other legions, and every legion has their flavour... you just don't get that level of fanatical devotion as you do in 40k, which feels so much more flavor of the week. There's also that obvious "we all love space marines, and own space marines, and our first army was space marines" that has always touched 40k, which is literally the point of HH.

 

So yeah, I think HH might not be the picture of perfect health, but it's doing fine. The new ZM rules and tiles is an opportunity, and proves that even with Alan gone, HH is far from forgotten.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Hirmetrium

[Marshal Rohr]

The more Warhammer TV and Voxcasts I listen to the more I think Andy H should take over rules design for the Heresy. I’ve never heard someone really nail the mix of narrative and gameplay like he does as he’s talking about his games. He also has a clear distinction between ‘historical’ 40K and ‘modern’ 40k which is nice to hear being incorporated into Games Design elements. I think Wade and Duncan and Nick are all awesome dudes that love the game, but Andy approaches everything like a role playing game. It would be insanely fun to just talk to him about army ideas and background. Edited November 14, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Mogsam]

The reducing the impact of the alpha strike is a reasonable point.

 

I often play against a heavy support heavy Iron Warriors and if I go second, its pretty much settled before I even move. You can't survive long against an Arcus, a leviathan and 10+ krak missiles for long without killing some of them first.

[mughi3]

The reducing the impact of the alpha strike is a reasonable point.

 

I often play against a heavy support heavy Iron Warriors and if I go second, its pretty much settled before I even move. You can't survive long against an Arcus, a leviathan and 10+ krak missiles for long without killing some of them first.

Because 40K uses the "I go/you go" system there has always been a bit of that. in 3rd they negated it by area terrain blocking LOS, but even in 4th/5th after they went true LOS terrain, cover saves were actually good enough that it acted as a hard counter. now with armor reduction and cover giving a simple +1 the alpha strike problem has become a glaring issue again in normal scale gameplay where nearly every weapon in the game can get into range very quickly on a standard 6X4 table. I to have had many games in 8th that were basically decided on turn 1

[m0nolith]

The more Warhammer TV and Voxcasts I listen to the more I think Andy H should take over rules design for the Heresy. I’ve never heard someone really nail the mix of narrative and gameplay like he does as he’s talking about his games. He also has a clear distinction between ‘historical’ 40K and ‘modern’ 40k which is nice to hear being incorporated into Games Design elements. I think Wade and Duncan and Nick are all awesome dudes that love the game, but Andy approaches everything like a role playing game. It would be insanely fun to just talk to him about army ideas and background.

If memory serves me right, Andy runs Necromunda right and Tony is in charge of 30k and Forgeworld overall.

I’m a bit split on this idea. I think Andy is doing an incredible job with Necromunda, but given how manpower and Specialist games have functioned in Forgeworld so far, that would mean that he’d leave Munda and go and only do 30k because it’s seems like a zero sum game there. When one system gains resources, it means a loss from another system (as has 30k over the last couple of years.

 

Then again, if I had to choose which game I would rather have Andy’s talents, I’d choose 30k all the way.

That being said tho, I like what Tony and Anuj are doing and have done with book 8.

[Cadmus Tyro]

 

The reducing the impact of the alpha strike is a reasonable point.I often play against a heavy support heavy Iron Warriors and if I go second, its pretty much settled before I even move. You can't survive long against an Arcus, a leviathan and 10+ krak missiles for long without killing some of them first.

Because 40K uses the "I go/you go" system there has always been a bit of that. in 3rd they negated it by area terrain blocking LOS, but even in 4th/5th after they went true LOS terrain, cover saves were actually good enough that it acted as a hard counter. now with armor reduction and cover giving a simple +1 the alpha strike problem has become a glaring issue again in normal scale gameplay where nearly every weapon in the game can get into range very quickly on a standard 6X4 table. I to have had many games in 8th that were basically decided on turn 1

That’s why you use the XXth ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

 

The more Warhammer TV and Voxcasts I listen to the more I think Andy H should take over rules design for the Heresy. I’ve never heard someone really nail the mix of narrative and gameplay like he does as he’s talking about his games. He also has a clear distinction between ‘historical’ 40K and ‘modern’ 40k which is nice to hear being incorporated into Games Design elements. I think Wade and Duncan and Nick are all awesome dudes that love the game, but Andy approaches everything like a role playing game. It would be insanely fun to just talk to him about army ideas and background.

If memory serves me right, Andy runs Necromunda right and Tony is in charge of 30k and Forgeworld overall.

I’m a bit split on this idea. I think Andy is doing an incredible job with Necromunda, but given how manpower and Specialist games have functioned in Forgeworld so far, that would mean that he’d leave Munda and go and only do 30k because it’s seems like a zero sum game there. When one system gains resources, it means a loss from another system (as has 30k over the last couple of years.

 

Then again, if I had to choose which game I would rather have Andy’s talents, I’d choose 30k all the way.

That being said tho, I like what Tony and Anuj are doing and have done with book 8.

I kind of want Andy to be a hobby fairy godfather where he just pops in adds a bunch of narrative and floats on to the next project. Spread the genius around like fairy dust.

[Hirmetrium]

 

 

The reducing the impact of the alpha strike is a reasonable point.I often play against a heavy support heavy Iron Warriors and if I go second, its pretty much settled before I even move. You can't survive long against an Arcus, a leviathan and 10+ krak missiles for long without killing some of them first.

Because 40K uses the "I go/you go" system there has always been a bit of that. in 3rd they negated it by area terrain blocking LOS, but even in 4th/5th after they went true LOS terrain, cover saves were actually good enough that it acted as a hard counter. now with armor reduction and cover giving a simple +1 the alpha strike problem has become a glaring issue again in normal scale gameplay where nearly every weapon in the game can get into range very quickly on a standard 6X4 table. I to have had many games in 8th that were basically decided on turn 1

That’s why you use the XXth

 

I mean, yeah its one of the perks of being the XXth, and again that's part of what I love, that we can all be smug bastards about our favourite legion... and we all know how wonderful it is when you get that sieze.

 

The reducing the impact of the alpha strike is a reasonable point.

 

I often play against a heavy support heavy Iron Warriors and if I go second, its pretty much settled before I even move. You can't survive long against an Arcus, a leviathan and 10+ krak missiles for long without killing some of them first.

 

I mean this is where deployment rules / terrain / weapon ranges should all come into effect and be balanced against one another... until the drop-pod lands on you.

 

8th's terrain rules are dog-:cuss, which is why ITC format exists and Iron Hands are currently top tier.

[Brofist]

It actually bodes well because it tells me they've realized the niche 30k has and that they want to capture the same for fantasy.

[Wolf Lord Duregar]

I really hope so. That made my day, I think.. It makes me a bit upset.. :cussting on it and then digging up the corpse, or so it feels - I guess I have to wait a few years until I know.

I kinda like the idea of having both those systems around, HH and WHFB, run like HH is now - for a more mature crowd and with more hobby involved (there is more options in HH, like older editions 40k, that is what I mean, not just the stuff you get in a plastic box as options for upgrade)

 

Interesting..

[Wolf Lord Duregar]

Dunno, but hope so-ish, FW seems better these days but yeah, drains resources from 30k.. Hopefull they get a few more lads working there? :/

 

Nah, WHFB has not always been the smaller game, it was the other way around when I started. Not sure when 40k got bigger though.

 

lol, poor sods. I don´t blame them though. Fnatasy, like 4th to 8th Ed was fun. I enjoyed it. I actually enjoyed 8th Ed more. The back ranks got into the fight so those +1, +2 dudes at the back not only gave combat resolution but also get to swing a bit.. ;)

[Wolf Lord Duregar]

I will say that from a customer experience perspective, AOS <> FW Warhammer was handled very poorly. This whole thing is done in hindsight of burning old players and now knowing they will pay a premium to play a classic edition analogous to 30k.

 

Welcome to the GW hobby.. ;)

[battle captain corpus]

Plenty of other places to discuss news and rumours concerning other games systems folks. Keep it on topic or...... - clicks kill switch on Crozius - .... 

 

BCC

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I think the announcement about FW's plans for 30k/HH is a nice warm fuzzy and should give us plenty good vibes going forward. Fingers crossed.. definitely hope MkII is coming back sometime soon (I believe it ultimately will, but again, soon). 

 

I realized something in the CSM forum that struck me as a bit of an inherent weakness in 40k. While the rules seem way more complex in the 7th edition environment, there is one thing that remains fairly simple that I hope remains a staple. For the most part HH/30k Warhammer is a Legion v. Legion environment. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that makes game balance a helluva lot easier than trying to maintain balance between all sorts of different factions on the 40k side of the house. It bothers me a little bit when 40k hobbyist want representation of their faction in 30k, because to me, it's like they can't accept or appreciate what this setting is all about. 

 

I've noticed there are a lot of hurt feelings over the idea that HH/30k is more of a gentlemen's game. I believe someone in this thread went indepth on that topic.. Maybe "gentlemen" is used too flippantly and going into more detail would have better effect. I will say I've never been to a big, competitive, tournament so I can't speak to that culture, but for the players in my community who were working on legions prior to 8th, and from what I've read on this community it appears those hobbyist who are into HH/30k approach the game from a completely different angle/frame of mind than those who play 40k. Lets be honest, a lot more money and dedication *typically* goes into 30k collections than what goes into 40k collections. Most of us go to great lengths to ensure our lists and armies reflects a particular part of the fluff. Are there those individuals who do the same in 40k? Absolutely.. Per capita, though, I think we can all agree there is more emphasis on that recreation in 30k than 40k. Honestly 8th edition (and 40k for me for a long time now) has just felt like a mess if you really want to focus on the fluff side of the game, but anyway, I'll get off the rabbit trail and just double down on the fact the "gentlemen" doesn't always mean players with the best manners or attitude, but that collectors on the 30k side *typically* have different motivations and that winds up creating a *different* culture than what is seen in 40k. 

 

It's been a while since I responded and I do remember a few poster bringing up certain aspects of 8th edition that make sense or are more realistic than certain rules that exist in 7th. There are handfuls of rules from 8th that I am 100% a believer in and would love to see be a part of HH/30k. That said, if it was all or nothing, then I really want nothing to do with 8e and the changes it would make to the HH/30k game. 

 

Anyone else find the 8e vs 7e being seen as the way to "save" and "modernize" the HH/30k as kinda funny? IIRC, there were a lot of people upset that HH/30k didn't port over because it meant they could no longer play with/against their 40k/non-HH/30k playing friends or gaming community. I like HH/30k for the prospect of playing fluffy battles, i.e. playing battles that reflect the overall environment of the HH. Wanting to play against 40k armies with a 30k has nothing to do with HH/WH30k.. Is anyone following me here? I get it, people buy expensive products and they want to use them and not have to keep them on the shelf, trust me, I'm tracking.. I just don't see why those people believe an entire system has to change just for them to play battles that have nothing to do with an entirely different niche setting that many hobbyist enjoy. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Bloody Legionnaire

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think if they really do dedicate serious resources they will take a close look at switching over. If they do you can always use your old rules though.

[Marshal Vespasian]

In my Club its largely players who dislike the new ap System as well as the removal of templates and hullpoints and the Addition of stratagems who play heresy.

Also there is kind of a different mindest, a bigger Focus on the hobby aspect, for the heresy crowd in my area. Which is why I joined.

[Fallen11]

In my Club its largely players who dislike the new ap System as well as the removal of templates and hullpoints and the Addition of stratagems who play heresy.

Also there is kind of a different mindest, a bigger Focus on the hobby aspect, for the heresy crowd in my area. Which is why I joined.

I for one love new AP system, HB finally has place in my list, and kinda makes sense, it's a big ass bolter shell, makes no sense that your armor protects you the same against lasgun/HB/Autocanon for example. BAsically before in heresy if you had AP4, you might as well been ap0, considering that it's 'legion' vs 'legion' environment mostly. 

 

Also I do like that twin linked finally is not reroll to hit while if you had 2x1 weapon you would shoot twice, even though it's the same thing, in both cases, you have 2 weapons. Loss of templates/blast weapon is kinda unfortunate, and that random shots and dmg is maybe a bit too random for my taste. I hit you with 4 lascanons, and do 4 dmg you can hit me also with 4 and do 24dmg?! Yea, chances for that are slim, but still, it can be way too random. 

 

There are things that don't make too much sense, like if antena of my tank can see your antenna behing building, we can both blast eachother with every weapon we have, and loss of AV sides. On the other hand, it makes sense how tanks degrade and the more dmg they have, they loss effectiveness.

 

We play HH only with 8th rule set, and everyone in my club is quite happy with it, since no one really wants to play 2 rule sets(everyone is mainly 40k player). 

[Charlo]

I think if they really do dedicate serious resources they will take a close look at switching over. If they do you can always use your old rules though.

 

Nah, it's not happening. Not now.

 

It's the investment that would be too much for some to swallow.

 

Having at least 10 black books + 3 armylists + Legions book (albeit with crossover) worth of rules invalidated just to change to 8th to appease, what is, a vocal minority OR speculative players is nonsense.

 

We know that book 10 is now well into development, unless they are going to suddenly up end the rules between Crusade and Book 10, they aren't moving to a new game system.

 

Is AoD 1.0 (7th Ed +) perfect, no. But 8th is not as deep. Some may like it more but it's nowhere near as complex, which is something people do enjoy about the Heresy.

[Marshal Rohr]

I doubt it will stay 7th Edition for much longer anyway. I think they're going to roll back the psychic powers and refine the rules. 

[Charlo]

I doubt it will stay 7th Edition for much longer anyway. I think they're going to roll back the psychic powers and refine the rules. 

 

I think they'll update some things.

 

But the core game will be the same.

 

Psychic powers and super heaviers certainly need a relook!

[m0nolith]

I doubt it will stay 7th Edition for much longer anyway. I think they're going to roll back the psychic powers and refine the rules.

 

My guess is whatever AoD 2nd Ed ends up being, it’s not going to invalidate the rules in the black books.

I never understood why some people need the rules there to remain valid given how awesome the lore sections are, but hey, each to his own I guess.

Edited December 2, 2019 by m0nolith