State of the HH vs 40k 8th edition

[m0nolith]

 

 

2:I was replying to Noserenda who's only input is that AoD rules are stupid and HH players are elitist snobs. I still stand by what I said earlier - there's no rules barrier, only willingnes to learn them. Not to mention I highly doubt that people who are so vocal about changing HH rules to 8th will suddenly start playing it should it ever happen. If you like Heresy you'd be playing it right now, if you don't, I don't believe you will with the new rules. Applies to 40k either.

 

 

Acting like a snob and violating the board rules doing it really does not help your "we arent elitist" case Some really weird/insulting assumptions about my knowledge and posting behaviour too, so id consider that too. Ive got well over 30,000 points of 30k painted under my belt even if ive had to sell a chunk off over the years and im more than capable of handling to hit and wound charts ive been playing with for over 2 decades, they arent the problem, in fact i agree they arent even hard to learn, though the hit one is superfluous in a system with barely any modifiers. I also talk about a lot more things than how bad 7th is, its just it constantly disappoints me, much like parts of the Heresy community do  

 

My chief problems with 7th are how convoluted it has gotten over the years, its an old game patched and patched and patched until its stretched at the seams, sections of it are trying so hard not to go backwards they are deeply convoluted, chiefly the movement system which has dozens of special rules instead of the old fixed values of 2nd and 8th. Thats the sort of thing scattered throughout, exceptions and special cases packed so deep it lost all elegance. Id go into more detail but im pretty sure id either be ignored or preaching to the choir given the way things have switched up in here.

 

And yes, the dying community is a thing, im not arrogant enough to say its universal but certainly in my experience there are a lot fewer players to play and web traffic to browse than there has been in the past, largely because folks have games they are more interested in playing rather than anything to do with the lore or setting, its just the rules which are the sticking point.

 

I actually have quite high hopes for the Mournival folks, they are taking the actual spirit of the heresy forwards with their stuff a lot better than FW is managing to, im just gutted they are literally on the other side of the planet.

 

 

There's a lot of supposition there based on nothing but your opinion and feelings. What you posted here goes directly against what I'm seeing with forums, heresy communities, tournaments and narrative events. In the end FW stated that Heresy is selling well, and no matter how we feel individually, their statement matters more.

 

But what exactly are you trying to do here? Are you trying to make a case for your view and convince others? Because you're not going to convince anyone by beating people over the head with your point, especially when you call people "elitist" if they simply disagree with you.

Human beings don't function like this. Everyone who disagrees with you is just going to double down.

 

Take a look at the way Vykes posted, he disagreed with some people and he explained his perspective reasonably, without malice and with an openness to hear what others have to say, and people opened up to him and what ended up was a great discussion about where the AoD ruleset can go. 

That's how you have a discussion.

 

Look, I get that your're trying to express yourself, but this constant negativity is tiring.

[Slips]

Lets give it another go but keep it professional or don't even bother participating.

[Lord Marshal]

Tbh i was disappointed chiefly that the much vaunted AoD rules were just 7th with an extra FAQ page, i mean ideally id like it to just synch up and benefit from the resources of mainline GW but a Version 2 that gutted the shell of 7th and did something good could work, its the mad defence of an awful rules system (mostly in the name of elitism) that gets especially tiring, which is why most of the last page has been so refreshing, i suspect mostly due to Vykes, so credit to all you frater.

The impression I get is that 'first edition' AoD was just them trying to get a rebranded 7th edition rulebook out there after GW had discontinued theirs so that there was one available to newcomers, rather than meant as a truly new product.

 

[bane Voice] That comes later.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Lord Marshal

[StrangerOrders]

So, Slips actually made a very good point when they closed down the thread. Folks do genuinely want different things from the game.

 

Now, my feeling is that folks that want 8th... well they already have eighth. It seems mean-spirited to demand that there be two eighths. I would be more sympathetic to requesting data-sheets for units that currently lack them in eighth, namely so that they could play 40k with their 30k armies. Which seems to be what those folks want anyway.

 

I personally think that there isnt anything wrong with wanting the game to stay as it is, or are wanting to see it evolve in a direction adjacent to the current system. I am not sure which of those two I fall into but I feel sympathetic to this group.

 

I do feel it is extremely disingenuous to say 'well you can keep playing with your rules now'. Because that is saying that you want to ignore other people and have only your desires supported. Honesty is important in these discussions. 

 

TLDR: Whoever is handling rules should do their job more frequently than once a year and release data-sheets.

[Charlo]

Considering the excellent rules support for Necromunda, with Andy in charge of the Heresy we'll be in for solid stuff.

[m0nolith]

So, Slips actually made a very good point when they closed down the thread. Folks do genuinely want different things from the game.

 

Now, my feeling is that folks that want 8th... well they already have eighth. It seems mean-spirited to demand that there be two eighths. I would be more sympathetic to requesting data-sheets for units that currently lack them in eighth, namely so that they could play 40k with their 30k armies. Which seems to be what those folks want anyway.

 

I personally think that there isnt anything wrong with wanting the game to stay as it is, or are wanting to see it evolve in a direction adjacent to the current system. I am not sure which of those two I fall into but I feel sympathetic to this group.

 

I do feel it is extremely disingenuous to say 'well you can keep playing with your rules now'. Because that is saying that you want to ignore other people and have only your desires supported. Honesty is important in these discussions. 

 

TLDR: Whoever is handling rules should do their job more frequently than once a year and release data-sheets.

First of all, 100% agree with the statement that it is mean spirited, not to mention greedy.

 

But on the subject of how often they do the rules, its FW, meaning its a small team.

The negative thing about having a small team like that is that you don't get updates nearly as often, and when you do a lot of the time there's spelling mistakes or things like that.

The positive to having a small team is that there's less cooks in the kitchen so there's a lot less of that that "design by committee" type of thing that's prevalent in 40k. There's also the fact that those guys that make the books seem like genuine fans of the lore, so the books all seem like a labor of love.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Tbh i was disappointed chiefly that the much vaunted AoD rules were just 7th with an extra FAQ page, i mean ideally id like it to just synch up and benefit from the resources of mainline GW but a Version 2 that gutted the shell of 7th and did something good could work, its the mad defence of an awful rules system (mostly in the name of elitism) that gets especially tiring, which is why most of the last page has been so refreshing, i suspect mostly due to Vykes, so credit to all you frater.

The impression I get is that 'first edition' AoD was just them trying to get a rebranded 7th edition rulebook out there after GW had discontinued theirs so that there was one available to newcomers, rather than meant as a truly new product.

 

[bane Voice] That comes later.

This is 100% the case. Aside from the grenades being usable by all models in the squad I don’t know if any rules differences between 7th and AoD. The team was so in the dark about 7ths original release they had to rework Thousand Sons entirely. Now that 7th is their own ruleset for their own game, they have total freedom to tweak it. I’m kind of wondering if they haven’t been working on that in the background this whole time in preparation for the final Legion to get its rules. Like the playtest rules for special units have never been codified, and they may not be because of laziness or lack of time, it might be because it’s coming with a full rules and army book update.

[Brother Tholath]

I am actually looking forward to Book 9 coming and DA being released. I'm also thinking that it will be a great time for them to look over all the current rule as well as legions and other factions and balance them before re-releasing the "red books".

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Tbh i was disappointed chiefly that the much vaunted AoD rules were just 7th with an extra FAQ page, i mean ideally id like it to just synch up and benefit from the resources of mainline GW but a Version 2 that gutted the shell of 7th and did something good could work, its the mad defence of an awful rules system (mostly in the name of elitism) that gets especially tiring, which is why most of the last page has been so refreshing, i suspect mostly due to Vykes, so credit to all you frater.

The impression I get is that 'first edition' AoD was just them trying to get a rebranded 7th edition rulebook out there after GW had discontinued theirs so that there was one available to newcomers, rather than meant as a truly new product.

 

[bane Voice] That comes later.

This is 100% the case. Aside from the grenades being usable by all models in the squad I don’t know if any rules differences between 7th and AoD. The team was so in the dark about 7ths original release they had to rework Thousand Sons entirely. Now that 7th is their own ruleset for their own game, they have total freedom to tweak it. I’m kind of wondering if they haven’t been working on that in the background this whole time in preparation for the final Legion to get its rules. Like the playtest rules for special units have never been codified, and they may not be because of laziness or lack of time, it might be because it’s coming with a full rules and army book update.

Grenades, no Invisibility in the psychic powers and while not a changed mechanic, the extremely clear vehicle fire arc pictures might as well be one for a bunch of players. They did a great job providing clarity about how they don't want vehicle weapons shooting through their own hull.

[rendingon1+]

I'm kind of concerned the quality of rules/ fluff will stay at Malevolence level, which is... not as good as it was. I mean, book 8 definitely has some cool stuff but overall I was really disappointimg.

 

And yes, my main gripe with AoD is that FW is extremely neglectful when it comes to updating rules (I would say deliberately) stuff or even proofreading. It almost feel like they write rules/some fluff "in the lunch break" and never look back.

[Bung]

And yes, my main gripe with AoD is that FW is extremely neglectful when it comes to updating rules (I would say deliberately) stuff or even proofreading. It almost feel like they write rules/some fluff "in the lunch break" and never look back.

 

That is simply a problem of a small team and a tight scedule. I think thats something that will improve with a bigger team.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think that’s a function of how publishing projects are managed. You’ve gotta fill the space, then polish. With less people than a big team, sometimes the polish misses the spots.

[MegaVolt87]

I think that’s a function of how publishing projects are managed. You’ve gotta fill the space, then polish. With less people than a big team, sometimes the polish misses the spots.

That would be easy to fix if HH had the same FAQ/ errata schedule as 40k. Yearly HH Legion Approved would do wonders for HH also.

[Charlo]

 

I think that’s a function of how publishing projects are managed. You’ve gotta fill the space, then polish. With less people than a big team, sometimes the polish misses the spots.

That would be easy to fix if HH had the same FAQ/ errata schedule as 40k. Yearly HH Legion Approved would do wonders for HH also.

While true, i think a lot of that comes from 40k being a competetive game these days.

 

With Heresy being much more narrative based the odd rules conflicts aren't as pressing.

[rendingon1+]

Being narrative based has nothing to do with lack of faqs and erratas. Lot of legions have horribly overpriced special units or unplayable RoWs which should have been fixed years ago. Edited December 8, 2019 by rendingon1+

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ask the BA about their dawnbreakers not having assault grenades. Not important, it's only been 9 months or so, on top of the wait get the unit in the first place. As I said, not important; narrative game.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

I think that’s a function of how publishing projects are managed. You’ve gotta fill the space, then polish. With less people than a big team, sometimes the polish misses the spots.

That would be easy to fix if HH had the same FAQ/ errata schedule as 40k. Yearly HH Legion Approved would do wonders for HH also.

While true, i think a lot of that comes from 40k being a competetive game these days.

 

With Heresy being much more narrative based the odd rules conflicts aren't as pressing.

 

I think that's a great way to make a distinction between the two game systems though. I think it's a pretty accurate statement that 40k seems to be more about the competitive. 

 

Being narrative based has nothing to do with lack of faqs and erratas. Lot of legions have horribly overpriced special units or unplayable RoWs which should have been fixed years ago.

 

True, but don't you think that's fairly reasonable/understandable? FW has had a lot going on and the loss of Alan Bligh was a huge impact on AoD. It seems like a lot of regrouping has occurred and that it was needed. 

[noigrim]

With those prices it's more like gentry-men

[rendingon1+]

I mean, problem with FAQs was still a thing even when Alan was with us. There's literally no reason why certain units are still garbage, some for long years, since making FAQ for them would literally take 3 hours at most. For all of them. Some units just require point drops, that's all.

That's why I don't like malevolence: they had more than a year for polishing BA and WS rules but the final effect is weak and sad.

Alan's death can't be excuse for everything and it's like 2 years since.

[Charlo]

Problem with these magic FAQs is that they're actually a lot more than just writing it in 3 hours and hitting publish.

 

The Horus Heresy has a brand identity to keep up with and you know what? I'd much rather they gave a good long look/ play test and proper evaluation of older lagging units than just slapping out a quick FAQ.

 

I do however understand the frustration, things like Reavers and Rampagers are in such an odd place and for the dark days of Sniper Vets were basically useless.

 

Hopefully, with new staff onboard we'll be seeing more units get the treatment that Destroyers, Phalanx Warders, Ashen Circle etc got. I'd suggest if you want that, email FW and give them feedback :)

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they are all being tested as grounds for a new set of red books though.

[rendingon1+]

Yes, it's exactly just like 3h work and publish. Unless you have totally no expwrience at gameplay and don't know what you're doing.

 

I'd like someone to give ma proof that they actually playtest anything. Because I believe they don't. And I don't like this argument, it completely lacks any basis. Do you believe that, for example, Golden Keshig was "tested to the ground" as you say? Or this volkite thing for deredeo? If conclusion of playtesting is "not broken" aka almost unplayable than sure, all of these units you named were platested. Or another example. Dawnbreakers ale just copy-paste Palatine Blades++ for 210 base and 25 for another squad member.

Palatine Blades playtest rules were released when Malevolenece was at the print at the very least, and cost 260 base and 40. Does it sound like quality to you? Creativity issues and being "fair" to EC aside.

 

And yes, glad you mentioned "incoming" red book because it sometimes feels to me like they're not giving a :cuss because in few years there will be a new red books that unlike online errata will cost $.

[StrangerOrders]

I am generally, well, not very sympathetic about Errata. I am sympathetic about rules, model-quality and quite a few things in general, but Errata has very little sympathy from me.

 

Forgeworld and GW in general typically get Erratas up at a good and respectable pace. I feel like 30k has lagged horribly there and I can't help but feel that the guy in charge of Errata has extremely minimal discipline compared to their (don't know who does it) peers managing the other Erratas. 

 

I also dislike that rules are put out as 'playtest', that kinda seems like what you were doing in the base launch if you have to errata it in the first place. Units like the Palatine Blades were absolutely atrocious at the launch of Betrayal and have been iterated on several times to become somewhat good. While admittedly overpriced, their playtest rules are actually the best version they have had and yet they aren't graced with full rule status. That is very irksome.

 

It really is not excusable when it is literally your job to have the rules in play and to correct them, the brand argument falls flat because they are not working from scratch. They are improving a product which has usually been in circulation for years and have received mountains of feedback for.

 

I do not believe it is the work of three hours. But it is also absurdly far from the work of a year, this is a profession and should be treated with professionalism rather than the behavior of their doing us a 'favour'.

 

There is sympathy to the staff and then there is forgetting that they are not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts and should be held to that standard. Especially when we as a community are willing to (often rightfully) ream lore writers for far smaller lapses. 

[Archangel975]

"I could go on ad nauseam  about all the issues I have with 8e.. It's easiest for me to sum it all up as dumbed down WH40k, and I'm sorry guys but that's all 8e is. I wont disagree that it has it's merits but it's just a completely different feel from what WH40k was when I started. I think some of the changes were a great idea for narrative and open play, but GW should have gone a step further for matched play and retained a lot of the features from previous editions. That way those who didn't want to take the game as seriously (and I don't mean on competitive terms) could do so but those that wanted the immersion and the complexity could have that as well. All of that is gone from WH40k, now and it's something myself and most of the HH/30k community appreciate about those rule sets staying with 7e."

 

I rarely post, but I have to agree, I've felt this way since 2nd Ed ended and everyone started playing 3rd Ed. I hated it, I stopped playing for over a decade... I've only recently came back in the middle of 6th Ed and because of the lure of Heresy. It was Forgeworlds effort that drew me back into the fold and given me reason to collect again... That and because I had already painted my all DA Black, out of the Rogue Trader book, which is when I actually started playing in HS. When they changed the DA to green, it was kind of a disappointment, but I understood that Epic wanted colored armies that photograph well, not black semi-featureless bases of something for the tabletop shots in White Dwarf. Things change, sometimes for the better, sometimes not...

 

I believe people have to accept the rule books as they are. Thats what the GAME IS. I've had the better part of 30 years to come to this conclusion, and that its not going to change. If you want to play competitively, then you have to play by the published rules, AS IS. If you want to play another way, then do so, amongst your friends, and have fun with that. People are too adamant about their opinions being the right one.

 

 

[m0nolith]

Hopefully, with new staff onboard we'll be seeing more units get the treatment that Destroyers, Phalanx Warders, Ashen Circle etc got. I'd suggest if you want that, email FW and give them feedback

 

Guys, this can't be stressed enough, email FW with what you think about the rules. They have said on multiple occasions that they want your emails with rules reviews. Just please be reasonable. No unit is meant to be incredible or terrible, just decent and fair for the points they cost.

Edited December 9, 2019 by m0nolith

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I mean, problem with FAQs was still a thing even when Alan was with us. There's literally no reason why certain units are still garbage, some for long years, since making FAQ for them would literally take 3 hours at most. For all of them. Some units just require point drops, that's all.

That's why I don't like malevolence: they had more than a year for polishing BA and WS rules but the final effect is weak and sad.

Alan's death can't be excuse for everything and it's like 2 years since.

 

Right, but I think that is because Alan Bligh apparently intended to have AoD switch over to 8e to whatever degree. Maybe if they new a significant change was coming they decided to hold off on faq and further updates. 

 

EDIT:

 

Still somewhat on the state of the HH, with the return of the gorgon and various other HH era models I'm starting to wonder if units like MkII marines were disappeared because the molds were awful. I'm pretty confident we're going to see MkII and some more units return. I just hope GW releases them in plastic like the other armor marks. I don't want to think about how outrageously expensive they'd be with nu-forgeworld prices. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Bloody Legionnaire