State of the HH vs 40k 8th edition

[Brother Styphus]

I'm saying that the method they currently use for playtesting isnt good, and that was highlighted by the unbalanced gameplay that went on when that statement was made.

 

I can brush my teeth every day, but my dentist still finds cavities. Time to find a way to improve my brushing.

[ProsperoStands]

If you want 8th, go play 8th. Nothing is stopping you.

Stop trying to make Heresy 8th. Its not and for that I am glad. 8th can keep the unpainted/primed, unbased, unfluffy armies.

[Vykes]

If you want 8th, go play 8th. Nothing is stopping you.

Stop trying to make Heresy 8th. Its not and for that I am glad. 8th can keep the unpainted/primed, unbased, unfluffy armies.

-taps fingers on his desk and sighs a bit- C'mon dude, it's more nuanced than that. Or is my little army a Heresy heresy army as it's fought in the company of "the unpainted/unbased/unfluffy" deviants? Not that I mind deviants.

I did say I was done with the discussion and the like (I am, I stand by with what I said earlier) but this isn't even about some alterations to Age of Darkness, this is one of those things I hear a lot and have to wonder... is that legit your experiences with playing 8E in your circles?

It's probably not a big surprise that I'm committed to the heresy theme, but that doesn't mean I'm fanatical about AoD's rule system as is, or that my army is going exclusive with it (some of my friends are just not into AoD for a number of reasons, but enjoy 8E a ton... and most play marines. Y'know, a few adore 30K to the point they bought primarch models... or I did for them and they use them as force commanders/Gulliman in our big games). Still, I don't have a gets-by list that I'm always happy with in that game*. I should absolutely note that this has nothing to do with some deficiency of 30K, that's 8E fault for not making suitable gets-by Legion lists without house ruling in weapons rules and vehicles from 3/4 separate codicies. What I am saying is there's overlap. There's a huge number of reasons why people may like/not-like Aod/8E and there's validity in many of those reasons.

Simple Example for me:

One of the most fun games I have ever had: "Hunting the Bear."

Literally the most unfun game I have ever played.... Ever: "Over before the commercials."

And it only looked like that because I brought the terrain, otherwise it was gonna be books and boxes.

To me, it's all about the players and intent, it has little to do with the rules: the chill shall be chill, the jerks shall be jerks. That isn't system exclusive.

*Why 'chaos space marine' forces can't get Landspeeders or attack bikes/scimitars, or even put jump packs on good assault troops in 40K is utterly baffling (my Reavers have to play Black Legion Berserkers, my breachers are plague marines, and my dear volkites have nothing even close).

[MegaVolt87]

 

(SNIP)

 

*Why 'chaos space marine' forces can't get Landspeeders or attack bikes/scimitars, or even put jump packs on good assault troops in 40K is utterly baffling (my Reavers have to play Black Legion Berserkers, my breachers are plague marines, and my dear volkites have nothing even close).  

 

The volkites could be plasma. You would be surprised how many people can't tell the difference between a volkite and a plasma, especially if you do green/blue/pink volkites. 

[Vykes]

Aye, admittedly I already have plasma and just kinda use them when I need too, Megavolt my dude  .  Though my Luna Wolf/White Scar 40K marines have been thinking of using Sternguard with combi-grav for my Volkite charger squad, and volkite culverins as grav amps for a dev squad, but it doesn't help my Sons of Horus much because chaos is now all into body horror and edgy demon gunk. 

 

Though it might give me a chance to make up some cool Luperci possessed if I can find a look that appeals to me. 

[Raktra]

If you want 8th, go play 8th. Nothing is stopping you.

Stop trying to make Heresy 8th. Its not and for that I am glad. 8th can keep the unpainted/primed, unbased, unfluffy armies.

Literally every variety of every game system on the planet has those people in droves. Stop acting like 30k is some beacon of purity for wargaming when it’s just as toxic as any other group. Edited December 26, 2019 by Captain Idaho
Unnecessary rudeness removed

[Bung]

 

If you want 8th, go play 8th. Nothing is stopping you.

Stop trying to make Heresy 8th. Its not and for that I am glad. 8th can keep the unpainted/primed, unbased, unfluffy armies.

Literally every variety of every game system on the planet has those people in droves. Stop acting like 30k is some beacon of purity for wargaming when it’s just as toxic as any other group.

I think the 30k group is rather welcoming as its a save haven for people that disliked formations in 7th and alot of stuff in 8th.

Alot of 30k layer would feel to be forced out of the game if they were forced to play 8th. At least that would be me, so there should be no suprise that people are going to defend what they like.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Captain Idaho
Reference to removed content

[Marshal Rohr]

 

If you want 8th, go play 8th. Nothing is stopping you.

Stop trying to make Heresy 8th. Its not and for that I am glad. 8th can keep the unpainted/primed, unbased, unfluffy armies.

Literally every variety of every game system on the planet has those people in droves. Stop acting like 30k is some beacon of purity for wargaming when it’s just as toxic as any other group.

 

Spend more time on Heresy instagram and Twitter. It’s miles better than forums. No toxicity, just people converting great models and posting cool pics of games. Edited December 26, 2019 by Captain Idaho
Reference to removed content

[Charlo]

While the HH elitism is very silly, I will say that when I went to an event in London earlier this year (the venues first HH event) the staff were surprised to not see any unpainted models.

[rendingon1+]

I'm starting to think it's less about "elitism" in terms of quality (subjective) and more with some people's slavish attitude towards FW in general. Looking at some histerical reactions when FW failings are being discussed seem to support that claim. Edited December 23, 2019 by rendingon1+

[Raktra]

 

 

If you want 8th, go play 8th. Nothing is stopping you.

Stop trying to make Heresy 8th. Its not and for that I am glad. 8th can keep the unpainted/primed, unbased, unfluffy armies.

Literally every variety of every game system on the planet has those people in droves. Stop acting like 30k is some beacon of purity for wargaming when it’s just as toxic as any other group.

Spend more time on Heresy instagram and Twitter. It’s miles better than forums. No toxicity, just people converting great models and posting cool pics of games.

I love my Instagram feed for that very reason. Had to do a mild bit of pruning here and there, but that was more maintenance than "you're all bastards and I hate you". Edited December 26, 2019 by Captain Idaho
Reference to removed content

[Marshal Rohr]

I got rid of the meme pages, 'lore' pages, and few bad apples and now its pure hobby. 

[Lord Blackwood]

Whats amusing is that the elitism has killed plenty of peoples interest in HH
When HH was red hot after the release of plastics TONS of people were building HH armies and trying to create things in the AOD forum. 
They got called carpetbaggers , and not real heresy players , when they explored things like optimal lists they were told they weren't playing the game right. 
I was very lucky to get involved with a group of very good players in the Pacific North West  who used to hold events for 30k from Big Games to ZM  to ZM and Big games side by side. 
When we got together there was a mix of people who had really fluffy armies , or had  really bruiser ones ( Ad Mech used to be the scariest thing on the planet. ) 

My armies have always been north of the fluff and more hard nosed cause I liked to win. 
Armored Breakthrough Imperial Fists  / Questoris Knights  
But you know what  win or lose all those game were fun ( cant speak to some of my opponents at dragonflight.) 

When 8th came out the HH  scene took  a significant blow as folks wanted to test the new system and  learn it , for some its great for others its not. 
Though the one thing  that has been apparent is that some people are celebrating less engagement in 30k  because it is not the engagement that they like/approve of. 
Such things are inherently toxic and drive people away.  

[rendingon1+]

Whats amusing is that the elitism has killed plenty of peoples interest in HH

When HH was red hot after the release of plastics TONS of people were building HH armies and trying to create things in the AOD forum.

They got called carpetbaggers , and not real heresy players , when they explored things like optimal lists they were told they weren't playing the game right.

You mean here? On B&C? I really can't recall anything like this happening here.

 

And both plastic Heresy boxes had better infantry models when compared to resin FW ones (not counting cataphractii pteruges) so I can't really understand if someone ever made that claim. Ever heresy player has Calth/Prosoero sets in his army because there's no reason not to.

Being a snob with no taste is quite different thing.

Edited December 23, 2019 by rendingon1+

[StrangerOrders]

Its really weird for me to hear this still going on but I will be a bit blunt.

 

I cordially dislike the term elitism, but to be blunt it fits diehard 8th fans to me rather than most 30k players.

 

Take a look at news alone on this site. Which I personally say is by far on the nicer and friendlier end of the spectrum of community sites for this franchise. You have a ton of people who post only to say that it is stupid that 30k gets the model, it needs eighth and way to too often 'why support a dead game?'. Heck, I've had to put up with that on a ton of other sites and even in some stores. 

 

Even on this thread we've had comments that seem to devolve to people being offended by anyone not acknowledging 8ths superiority or failing to understand that it does not appeal to everyone.

 

There are people that seem to have peculiar ideas about their preferences conferring some sort of bizarre status, that is hardly exclusive to this hobby or even hobbies in general. Some people seem to have a rather pathetic need to attribute status to themselves for some reason or another.

 

But can we please drop this idea that it is a one-way street?

 

It might not be elitism, but alot of the unpleasant side of 8th's base have a puritanical need to purge those that dislike 8th that would put Russ and Mortarion to shame.

Edited December 23, 2019 by StrangerOrders

[Lord Marshal]

I have to agree with StrangerOrders here. The amount of "Ugh, 30k gonards need to stop defending 7th and go with 8th!" by far outweighs the amount of elitism and supposed gatekeeping that goes on from 30k proponents. If anything, I'd say it's less prevalent in the 30k community than it was back when a few quiet grumblings about BaC was first announced. You pretty much can't browse a new 30k release without tripping over at least a dozen "Wow I'd buy it but it's not got 8th rules, if only they moved 30k to 8th which is the right thing to do!" and, of course, any response to that is met by shock and horror about 30k'ers being defensive.

 

It reminds me a lot of the horror stories you'd hear about Da Warmahordes Boogeyman at the twilight of 7th, when you'd think every player of that game would demand you have your head stuck in a toilet and be forced to endure a soap-sock beating before even being allowed to look at the models. In my experience, the community was much more welcoming and willing to show you the ropes compared to great swathes of the 40k community, where the supposed 'terrible instances' occurred with much more regularity.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Lord Marshal

[Lord Blackwood]

As a direct answer to if the things I mentioned happen here on  B&C :  Yes they do , without naming names I have seen it plenty. 

In the same breath  I  dont think  I would disagree that there are folks who are just as closed minded on both sides. 

There are certainly folks who  think that 7th is the pits and that 30k is dead and those people are wrong. 

There are people on  these boards who gatekeep 30k and those people are wrong. There are people who will say things like 

" If you like 8th edition thats great , but I LIKE MY WAR GAMES AS WAR GAMES NOT BOARD GAMES "  and act like its not a backhanded insult.  Those people are wrong. 

Both systems have value, Thankfully Forgeworld continues to support 30k with model releases and black books coming out , so I  dont think there is anything to worry about as far as actual production  of 30k Material is concerned. 
 

[StrangerOrders]

As a direct answer to if the things I mentioned happen here on  B&C :  Yes they do , without naming names I have seen it plenty. 

 

In the same breath  I  dont think  I would disagree that there are folks who are just as closed minded on both sides. 

 

There are certainly folks who  think that 7th is the pits and that 30k is dead and those people are wrong. 

 

There are people on  these boards who gatekeep 30k and those people are wrong. There are people who will say things like 

 

" If you like 8th edition thats great , but I LIKE MY WAR GAMES AS WAR GAMES NOT BOARD GAMES "  and act like its not a backhanded insult.  Those people are wrong. 

 

Both systems have value, Thankfully Forgeworld continues to support 30k with model releases and black books coming out , so I  dont think there is anything to worry about as far as actual production  of 30k Material is concerned. 

 

Its weird, but I think that things both systems have people take as insults are also weirdly enough what you have people singing the praises of in other comments.

 

The complexity argument is as often used to laud 30k as it is to damn it (which we can see plenty of examples of both in this thread alone).

 

And then you have the brevity argument, which is similarly used as both a celebration of how quick you can play 8th while others cite it as proof of there being some issue with it.

 

To me at least that speaks of neither camp really existing since I am sure the less pleasant folks (no names) on both sides would rip each other to shreds if left in isolation since they seem to be just as in conflict with each other as the other camp.

 

You have a really good point about back-handed insults btw. Masters of subtlety, posters are not. :P

 

My own token is that inclusivity is a good thing. Having several options for rule-sets to use is a good thing in my opinion. I am an avowed critic of 8th but I find it silly to think no one should play it or that other systems should go unsupported to please folks that explicitly want less choices.

[Brofist]

 

If you want 8th, go play 8th. Nothing is stopping you.

Stop trying to make Heresy 8th. Its not and for that I am glad. 8th can keep the unpainted/primed, unbased, unfluffy armies.

Literally every variety of every game system on the planet has those people in droves. Stop acting like 30k is some beacon of purity for wargaming when it’s just as toxic as any other group.

 

Frankly people with this attitude just come across as having their heads so far up their arses they don’t know whether to fart or cough.

 

I dunno man, I find the other attitude to be the one that's toxic. 30k is a specialist game separate from mainline warhammer. That's the reality. Complaining that it should be something it isn't? Its anybody's right, but its hardly surprising people get defensive.

 

Like you're sitting in your shop playing MTG and some guy sits down next to you and says "man that game looks cool, but I really wish it was pokemon, which is a better game"

[Raktra]

I’m not saying that the 40k crowd is innocent either, I’m saying *every* subgroup (sub-genre?) has the same zealous lunatics crowing at everyone else that they’re the one true game etc etc, so assigning blame to just one is facile.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I find it weird that people say 40k plays faster than 30k. Obviously this depends on the mission played (mainly because of the deployment method) but the game play itself just takes so much longer in 40k; people just call 40k games a lot sooner because of how overwhelming the damage output is, but even that takes a good hour and a half to play out a couple of turns.

[m0nolith]

As a direct answer to if the things I mentioned happen here on  B&C :  Yes they do , without naming names I have seen it plenty. 

 

In the same breath  I  dont think  I would disagree that there are folks who are just as closed minded on both sides. 

 

That's a false equivalency. 30k players aren't dead set on forcing 40k go back to 7th ed, while the opposite isn't true.

Also, most 7th ed fans aren't wholeheartedly against aspect of 8th from being included in AoD 2nd Ed, they just don't want a complete change over to 8th.

I don't disagree with your statement that there are close minded people on both sides, just that it is in equal measure in number of people and to which degree.

 

There are certainly folks who  think that 7th is the pits and that 30k is dead and those people are wrong. 

 

Agreed.

 

There are people on  these boards who gatekeep 30k and those people are wrong. There are people who will say things like 

 

" If you like 8th edition thats great , but I LIKE MY WAR GAMES AS WAR GAMES NOT BOARD GAMES "  and act like its not a backhanded insult.  Those people are wrong. 

 

I am one of the peoples who said exactly that, in fact I think you're quoting me here. It's not meant like a backhanded insult, its meant as a direct insult, nothing backhanded about it.

Literally no one is gatekeeping here by the actual definition of the word, don't know how you define it. No one is telling anyone that they cant start playing 30k because they're not allowed. The discussion here is about which rules GW/FW should support for The Horus Heresy.

 

Both systems have value, Thankfully Forgeworld continues to support 30k with model releases and black books coming out , so I  dont think there is anything to worry about as far as actual production  of 30k Material is concerned.

 

Agreed.

Edited December 24, 2019 by m0nolith

[m0nolith]

Its really weird for me to hear this still going on but I will be a bit blunt.

 

I cordially dislike the term elitism, but to be blunt it fits diehard 8th fans to me rather than most 30k players.

 

Take a look at news alone on this site. Which I personally say is by far on the nicer and friendlier end of the spectrum of community sites for this franchise. You have a ton of people who post only to say that it is stupid that 30k gets the model, it needs eighth and way to too often 'why support a dead game?'. Heck, I've had to put up with that on a ton of other sites and even in some stores. 

 

Even on this thread we've had comments that seem to devolve to people being offended by anyone not acknowledging 8ths superiority or failing to understand that it does not appeal to everyone.

 

There are people that seem to have peculiar ideas about their preferences conferring some sort of bizarre status, that is hardly exclusive to this hobby or even hobbies in general. Some people seem to have a rather pathetic need to attribute status to themselves for some reason or another.

 

But can we please drop this idea that it is a one-way street?

 

It might not be elitism, but alot of the unpleasant side of 8th's base have a puritanical need to purge those that dislike 8th that would put Russ and Mortarion to shame.

 

Problem is some people are simply like this, not just on these forums but in real life.

It's not a fault in reason and logic, instead its a personality trait where in people like this will use their logic and reason to justify their emotions and not look at a situation or subject with objectivity. I also see a lot of those same people lacking the ability to view themselves from the perspective of other people, compounding this issue.

 

Simply put, some people cant be argued or reasoned with because the need for their emotions to be correct is too powerful of a thing to be changed, so you end up with some people being absolute in their certainty that only pure 8th is the right way to go and vice versa.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

If you want 8th, go play 8th. Nothing is stopping you.

Stop trying to make Heresy 8th. Its not and for that I am glad. 8th can keep the unpainted/primed, unbased, unfluffy armies.

Literally every variety of every game system on the planet has those people in droves. Stop acting like 30k is some beacon of purity for wargaming when it’s just as toxic as any other group.

 

Frankly people with this attitude just come across as having their heads so far up their arses they don’t know whether to fart or cough.

I dunno man, I find the other attitude to be the one that's toxic. 30k is a specialist game separate from mainline warhammer. That's the reality. Complaining that it should be something it isn't? Its anybody's right, but its hardly surprising people get defensive.

 

Like you're sitting in your shop playing MTG and some guy sits down next to you and says "man that game looks cool, but I really wish it was pokemon, which is a better game"

Pretty much this. I’ve only seen one person on this forum really bash Titanicus and Necromunda as needing to be more like 8th. Other than that no one goes after Necromunda to be compatible with 8th Edition.

[Darog]

Merry Christmas!

Last update in 2019, cheers!

The work is completed. It took us 2 years of work, persistent playtests and painstaking work to do this.

 

But at the moment, all the rules, including the new ones, are fully transferred to the rails of the 8th edition.

Congratulations to all! Raise up our glasses!  Chinchin!

 

Download: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1fqaPnFjwIhGOfMxKwMiZdNgz6ysV95rJ

 

PP Army Builder: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OlsC2Fdfxok91qb5lKuPeg4W9kpvrLKq5d_08UrY5w0/edit#gid=1059759610 

Builder guide: You must make a copy, select the battle roll, then the unit, then everything will work automatically, to copy the detachment copy the line (row). Well, so far 28 lines, but I’ll still work on it