Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[DarkChaplain]

Well true but killing off that many of the "eatablished" ones right away is... unwise?

No either they'll focus even more on the dwindling cast of which we all know their fates, etc. or we'll get new characters for four books at most.

 

I don't have a problem that they might have died but that many in a "rush"...

Feels a tad bit like GoT eight season where they had to let people die just for the sake of it.

 

Pretty much this. At this point I'm just surprised Abnett didn't nuke a couple thousand Imperial Fists off-screen as well, though I guess he got his fill with I Am Slaughter and could thus restrain himself when it came to the yellow boys...

 

 

And apparently people forget that Argonis, the closest thing to a likable SoH during the long draught, exists.

 

 

More like I never actually liked Argonis to begin with. He came out of left field when we had plenty of established captains, rose to prominence on whatever basis, buggered about on Tallarn in what was the worst story of that entire arc (Ironclad), had an audio drama and room in Slaves to Darkness, when other characters were just sidelined, or not even mentioned. Argonis always struck me as John French's own creation he could do with as he pleased without potentially stepping on anybody else's toes, but he himself was never that interesting reading about, in my opinion.

 

 

As for Ollanius,

I really dislike that angle of just having, well, another Oll to fill a job that Dan's previous Ollanius could've adequately fulfilled. There was no issue with distorting historic records in the first place - I think everybody expected that to happen, considering Oll is at best a retired army dude, and an immortal at that. He's pious as well, far beyond reason. What's the point in having a token guardsman stand in for the job at this point, just to pull a weaker version of "this guy sacrificed himself for the Emperor" - where the guy doesn't even die to not-even-Horus?!

 

The entire thing could just as well be rewritten in a similar enough way through the use of Oll Persson. Who would probably survive, too, seeing how he's immortal, and be able to make the same suggestion as well.

 

As for the other prominent characters:

Shiban probably served his arc and Legion well enough at this point, but it leaves us with a really short list of relevant White Scars PoV characters down the line. The best-developed ones are or might be dead now, or not even around for the Siege.

 

As for Zephon... yeah, he'll get "repaired" by Arkhan Land or some such nonsense. Wouldn't be the first time the dude works his techno-sorcery on the bloke. If it doesn't happen, I'll be hugely surprised, especially with the implication being set up. With the whole Eternity Gate thing still coming up, I can't really see him missing.

Still a bit of a whiff, to have him knocked out / killed like this mere "moments" after he got added to the Sanguinary Guard, with only a short story to get him there between Master of Mankind and this novel. Really underused, if dead, dissatisfyingly so. And I'm not even a big fan of the Blood Angel, especially not compared to some people here.

 

At the end of the day, with so many relatively unceremonious beheadings (or not) in this book, it's hard to be surprised about any more of these. It's numbing, but not in the sense of being left speechless and shellshocked in a good way, but because it's leaving me with a dread for Abnett's finale. Guess he was worried about it too and thus started to thin the roster needed to pay attention to at the end game...

[Fire Golem]

 

 

 

I hope we get new SoH characters established in the next few for Scouring/post-Heresy scenes at least?

Looks at Black Legion books, eh, I'm not worried. The Medicae alone is a more likable SoH than anything we've had between now and Rising (ironic that people are complaining about the first book to actually make the Legion sufferable in literal decades, I'd argue they've repeatedly murdered the Sons in characterization for a while now).

 

The Medicae in the Fabius books is also fun.

 

Actually, alot of SoH Medicae are entertaining... thats a really pattern now that I think about it.

 

And apparently people forget that Argonis, the closest thing to a likable SoH during the long draught, exists.

 

Say what you will but I would rather a good but brief characterization than dragging a concept's rotting corpse across several dozen books. Which has been my experience with the SoH during the Heresy.

 

I mean, I just want a gaggle of well-written SoH that aren't already dead and have an arc that leads into 40k. It wouldn't be hard to have a few glorified cameos here to build on later.

 

Raises eyebrow

 

Most Legions are lucky to get an interesting cast for a book and one interesting long-term character. A gaggle is pretty greedy by 40k standards.

 

Anyway, to keep everything positive.

 

Finally finished the book. The deaths were... well different to what others have described to my eye due to a woeful lack of context. 

 

I will provide my own opinion if asked but the entire thing needs reading I believe.

 

Now pardon my while I sigh and begin practicing my facepalm for Fury.

 

I’d be curious to hear your final thoughts now you’ve finished it. 

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

 

I agree with Marshal Loss. And he said it far better than I did. My post can be read as a bit too cynical.

Abnett stands apart from other BL authors. Being a popular veteran author means that if he asks to use a character, they will more often than not say yes. I don't think he does it out of ego or to show off, for him it's most likely story-driven.

I just wish he could keep the kill rate a bit lower.

Tbf, we have all been baying for blood for a while. Its a bit unfair to complain that our calls for bloodletting have been answered and that it was characters we happened to like.

 

Should he have just killed characters we didnt like? What would be the point there?

 

Not to mention the layers of plot armor protecting most of the cast.

 

Did I like the Bringer of Sorrows in the Master of Mankind? Yes

It isn't that I want certain characters to live over others. It's that he was part of a list of characters that had flexible story arcs.

I can handle the additions Abnett made about the Emperor's history and the woman involved with the creation of the Primarchs. My big complaint with this book is how that list, for loyalists and traitors, is now a lot shorter.

 

I'm never bored reading Abnett's stories, so I don't want anyone to think I hate him or his work, no matter how much pain he inflicted on us with "Try Again" Bragg. But, with every book he has written for the Heresy, each has had a significant impact not only on canon but also on the direction other authors have had to take to keep the series, more or less, coherent. This book will not only impact the remaining books about the Siege, but also any potential Scouring series.

The lost potential for stories with characters we already know. That's what bothers me. But, I'll get over it and keep reading Abnett's books.

[Kelborn]

Endryd shows up? Oo

 

Emperor beware...

Did he make it? If he went down, as well...

I might get really salty.

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

 

 

I hope we get new SoH characters established in the next few for Scouring/post-Heresy scenes at least?

Looks at Black Legion books, eh, I'm not worried. The Medicae alone is a more likable SoH than anything we've had between now and Rising (ironic that people are complaining about the first book to actually make the Legion sufferable in literal decades, I'd argue they've repeatedly murdered the Sons in characterization for a while now).

 

The Medicae in the Fabius books is also fun.

 

Actually, alot of SoH Medicae are entertaining... thats a really pattern now that I think about it.

 

And apparently people forget that Argonis, the closest thing to a likable SoH during the long draught, exists.

 

Say what you will but I would rather a good but brief characterization than dragging a concept's rotting corpse across several dozen books. Which has been my experience with the SoH during the Heresy.

 

I mean, I just want a gaggle of well-written SoH that aren't already dead and have an arc that leads into 40k. It wouldn't be hard to have a few glorified cameos here to build on later.

 

Raises eyebrow

 

Most Legions are lucky to get an interesting cast for a book and one interesting long-term character. A gaggle is pretty greedy by 40k standards.

 

Anyway, to keep everything positive.

 

Finally finished the book. The deaths were... well different to what others have described to my eye due to a woeful lack of context. 

 

I will provide my own opinion if asked but the entire thing needs reading I believe.

 

Now pardon my while I sigh and begin practicing my facepalm for Fury.

 

I’d be curious to hear your final thoughts now you’ve finished it. 

 

I absolutely loved it! It was great across the board.

 

My favorite characterizations since I can remember, real depth to everyone and for the first time I feel like everyone actually knows how to fight a damned war. Even characters like Fulgrim and Eidolon get treated with surprising respect and subtlety. The Emp is for once well balanced in portrayal of both negatives and weaknesses and each of the Primarchs gets a good show.

 

Heck, I actually liked the humans! Hell, I was actually looking forward to hearing more from John. Freaking John, I usually hate reading that guy! 

 

But... I think those of us that have read the book really have to stop with the 'here is stuff with no context' bit. Its not difficult to give two-three sentences with context. Even the pages are not helpful (Posting a Krole Excerpt while neglecting her seven or so PoVs building up to it, for example). This is not a book that favors fact hungry people who just want to have a piece of data to hurl into an argument at a later date (it will probably not be popular on reddit).

 

Endryd shows up? Oo

 

Emperor beware...

Did he make it? If he went down, as well...

I might get really salty.

He is dead yes.

 

He does so in the midst of saving Garro, almost killing Abbadon and chewing through Justaerin like a weedhacker. After spending several dozen pages saving the asses of the other kill teams, amassing over 167 personal kills and general kicking ass nonstop. There is even one scene where he gets a bit overeager and punches a terminator into a mulch long after he knows its dead.

 

What else could you want?

 

I will say this for the billionth time, do not assume and read the damned book. Context makes every difference and, respectfully, some of the folks sharing spoilers are doing so without giving much in the way of the context that makes the scene.

 

 

 

Well true but killing off that many of the "eatablished" ones right away is... unwise?

No either they'll focus even more on the dwindling cast of which we all know their fates, etc. or we'll get new characters for four books at most.

 

I don't have a problem that they might have died but that many in a "rush"...

Feels a tad bit like GoT eight season where they had to let people die just for the sake of it.

 

Pretty much this. At this point I'm just surprised Abnett didn't nuke a couple thousand Imperial Fists off-screen as well, though I guess he got his fill with I Am Slaughter and could thus restrain himself when it came to the yellow boys...

 

 

And apparently people forget that Argonis, the closest thing to a likable SoH during the long draught, exists.

 

 

More like I never actually liked Argonis to begin with. He came out of left field when we had plenty of established captains, rose to prominence on whatever basis, buggered about on Tallarn in what was the worst story of that entire arc (Ironclad), had an audio drama and room in Slaves to Darkness, when other characters were just sidelined, or not even mentioned. Argonis always struck me as John French's own creation he could do with as he pleased without potentially stepping on anybody else's toes, but he himself was never that interesting reading about, in my opinion.

 

 

As for Ollanius,

I really dislike that angle of just having, well, another Oll to fill a job that Dan's previous Ollanius could've adequately fulfilled. There was no issue with distorting historic records in the first place - I think everybody expected that to happen, considering Oll is at best a retired army dude, and an immortal at that. He's pious as well, far beyond reason. What's the point in having a token guardsman stand in for the job at this point, just to pull a weaker version of "this guy sacrificed himself for the Emperor" - where the guy doesn't even die to not-even-Horus?!

 

The entire thing could just as well be rewritten in a similar enough way through the use of Oll Persson. Who would probably survive, too, seeing how he's immortal, and be able to make the same suggestion as well.

 

As for the other prominent characters:

Shiban probably served his arc and Legion well enough at this point, but it leaves us with a really short list of relevant White Scars PoV characters down the line. The best-developed ones are or might be dead now, or not even around for the Siege.

 

As for Zephon... yeah, he'll get "repaired" by Arkhan Land or some such nonsense. Wouldn't be the first time the dude works his techno-sorcery on the bloke. If it doesn't happen, I'll be hugely surprised, especially with the implication being set up. With the whole Eternity Gate thing still coming up, I can't really see him missing.

Still a bit of a whiff, to have him knocked out / killed like this mere "moments" after he got added to the Sanguinary Guard, with only a short story to get him there between Master of Mankind and this novel. Really underused, if dead, dissatisfyingly so. And I'm not even a big fan of the Blood Angel, especially not compared to some people here.

 

At the end of the day, with so many relatively unceremonious beheadings (or not) in this book, it's hard to be surprised about any more of these. It's numbing, but not in the sense of being left speechless and shellshocked in a good way, but because it's leaving me with a dread for Abnett's finale. Guess he was worried about it too and thus started to thin the roster needed to pay attention to at the end game...

 

If it is any comfort, you are completely wrong and have completely misjudged the scale of this book. Very little is 'quick' or 'random' in a novel that is 2-3 BL books in length.

 

I am trying to give as much context as I can and even I feel like I am dropping the ball.

Endryd shows up? Oo

 

Emperor beware...

Did he make it? If he went down, as well...

I might get really salty.

He is dead yes.

 

He does so in the midst of saving Garro, almost killing Abbadon and chewing through Justaerin like a weedhacker. What else could you want?

 

I will say this for the billionth time, do not assume and read the damned book. Context makes every difference and, respectfully, some of the folks sharing spoilers are doing so without giving much in the way of the context that makes the scene.

Edited March 26, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[DarkChaplain]

 

 

I agree with Marshal Loss. And he said it far better than I did. My post can be read as a bit too cynical.

Abnett stands apart from other BL authors. Being a popular veteran author means that if he asks to use a character, they will more often than not say yes. I don't think he does it out of ego or to show off, for him it's most likely story-driven.

I just wish he could keep the kill rate a bit lower.

Tbf, we have all been baying for blood for a while. Its a bit unfair to complain that our calls for bloodletting have been answered and that it was characters we happened to like.

 

Should he have just killed characters we didnt like? What would be the point there?

 

Not to mention the layers of plot armor protecting most of the cast.

 

Did I like the Bringer of Sorrows in the Master of Mankind? Yes

It isn't that I want certain characters to live over others. It's that he was part of a list of characters that had flexible story arcs.

I can handle the additions Abnett made about the Emperor's history and the woman involved with the creation of the Primarchs. My big complaint with this book is how that list, for loyalists and traitors, is now a lot shorter.

 

 

Pretty much that. I don't care if these characters die during the Siege - that is the expectation to begin with. But I want them to live up to how they've been built up, for their own character arcs to conclude in a satisfying way, even if they end up cut short. I want their deaths to have weight and impact. Throwing all of them into a blender at the same time diminishes the individual deaths significantly, robs them of shock value or the means to end with a noticeable bang. It's robbing the remaining four books of vital, familiar points of view, narrowing the spectrum of stories that can be told effectively while not really gaining the setting much in return. Heck, I'd have been fine with these bunched-up deaths as well, had it been book 6 or 7 rather than book 4.

 

The Sons of Horus aren't toilet paper, there's no need for them to be ripped off the shelves in a panic. They would've served their purpose one way or another, but now they simply won't be able to anymore, canon conflicts aside.

 

Frankly, the whole bloodlust point never was something I cared for in the first place. I wanted the character drama to live up to expectations, and be handled in a satisfying, conclusive way. The action and deaths were always secondary to me, from the beginning. It's part of why I never cared for the Sigismund kill-list drivel either, or these power level arguments. The moment the Primarchs, Astartes or mortals come to blows and the dialogue ends or gets reduced to snarls and stereotypical barbs, the part that really interests me is most likely over anyway. I get more out of seing the petulant Perturabo talking himself up than from seeing him plant Forgebreaker into Dorn's crummy nose.

 

As for Endryd...

RIP. A bloke I actually liked hearing about, thanks to Josh Reynolds' work on him. Couldn't give a toss about the FW Black Books, but Josh made him one of the coolest characters in the later series... even though that was mostly a result of all the stuff he did and said when he wasn't punching Terminators into a mess.

Oh well, at least he's getting a big exit in a blaze of badassery. Hope he had a moment with Malcador somewhere in there, to clear up some "misunderstandings"

Edited March 26, 2020 by DarkChaplain

[StrangerOrders]

You.... are really wrong alot about of stuff man, I don't know what to tell you.

 

There are only three companies involved in the battle...

Abbadon's plan was to basically undermine a wall and attack from beneath through a gap both Dorn and Perturabo predicted but thought the other would miss.

Dorn figured Horus would attack enmasse.

Instead only three companies showed up and were trapped.

It was meant to be a short and bloody affair.

Doing so cost the Loyalists Eternity Gate but the entire book was Dorn's bloody calculus at work.

Its... actually kind of astounding to hear the Sons be called toilet paper given how gripping the battle was. They were also horrifically outnumbered against five companies and still managed to almost wipe them out.

 

You are kind of just taking a few bites some folks threw out and acting as if that can somehow entail a 600 page chonker of a book.

 

Zephon might also not be dead given that the last mention of him is when LAND finds out, and he is in pristine condition and in Stasis.

Given Bringer of Sorrow and what Land has already done? I think we might not have seen the last of him.

Or of Shiban for that matter, it didnt read to me like a death scene. It cut to black sure, but uniquely no one mentions it. Everyone that dies quickly in this book is immediately noted elsewhere. No one mentions Shiban.

[mc warhammer]

i'm trying to find things to be mad about or bummed, but i remain (cautiously) optimistic about this book.

as for abnett's long leash...at least in my experience...there is always a head or lead writer. sometimes that's a good thing or bad thing depending on the level of pushback or input the rest of the team have. i just have trouble imagining that adb and co have been totally sidelined (through either their own deference, editorial mandate or just dan's golden aura) to allow abnett to destroy the seige to the point that each author now only has one character each to write about for the remainder of the series

i think that a degree of the one ring power abnett has over BL is somewhat in reader's minds

 

[EDIT]

 

from memory, adb said that thorpe and goulding (when he was at GW) mostly "led" (for want of a better term)  the IP meetings

Edited March 27, 2020 by mc warhammer

[mc warhammer]

You.... are really wrong alot about of stuff man, I don't know what to tell you.

 

There are only three companies involved in the battle...

 

Abbadon's plan was to basically undermine a wall and attack from beneath through a gap both Dorn and Perturabo predicted but thought the other would miss.

 

Dorn figured Horus would attack enmasse.

 

Instead only three companies showed up and were trapped.

 

It was meant to be a short and bloody affair.

 

Doing so cost the Loyalists Eternity Gate but the entire book was Dorn's bloody calculus at work.

 

Its... actually kind of astounding to hear the Sons be called toilet paper given how gripping the battle was. They were also horrifically outnumbered against five companies and still managed to almost wipe them out.

 

You are kind of just taking a few bites some folks threw out and acting as if that can somehow entail a 600 page chonker of a book.

 

Zephon might also not be dead given that the last mention of him is when LAND finds out, and he is in pristine condition and in Stasis.

 

Given Bringer of Sorrow and what Land has already done? I think we might not have seen the last of him.

 

Or of Shiban for that matter, it didnt read to me like a death scene. It cut to black sure, but uniquely no one mentions it. Everyone that dies quickly in this book is immediately noted elsewhere. No one mentions Shiban.

never trust that cut to black

[Marshal Rohr]

If anything the spoilers without context have made me more excited for the book. This is the first one since Solar War I’m kicking myself I didn’t join the rush to get the limited edition.

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

i'm trying to find things to be mad about or bummed, but i remain (cautiously) optimistic about this book.

 

as for abnett's long leash...at least in my experience...there is always a head or lead writer. sometimes that's a good thing or bad thing depending on the level of pushback or input the rest of the team have. i just have trouble imagining that adb and co have been totally sidelined (through either their own deference, editorial mandate or just dan's golden aura) to allow abnett to destroy the seige to the point that each author now only has one character each to write about for the remainder of the series

 

i think that a degree of the one ring power abnett has over BL is somewhat in reader's minds

It's the impact his stories have. The Alpha Legion, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Imperium Secundus. They all started with "I have an idea for a story". In my mind, I can still see Guilliman standing on the bridge of Macragge's Honour taking notes by hand on everything he can see in Calth's orbit.

That's the One Ring of power that Abnett has. And it works.

[1ncarnadine]

Endryd shows up? Oo

 

Emperor beware...

Did he make it? If he went down, as well...

I might get really salty.

He is dead yes.

 

He does so in the midst of saving Garro, almost killing Abbadon and chewing through Justaerin like a weedhacker. What else could you want?

 

I will say this for the billionth time, do not assume and read the damned book. Context makes every difference and, respectfully, some of the folks sharing spoilers are doing so without giving much in the way of the context that makes the scene.

 

Heck yeah. That sounds like a good send-off. I'm a little sad his Marked by Dark Fates rule didn't pan out to anything, but this was the next most likely place for his story to end.

 

I still really hope we get another audio drama from Josh Reynolds, bridging the gap between the last one and his appearance here. I gots ta know what he did with some of the crazy dangerous crap he was amassing. Presumably, some of it has found its way into the hands of the Loyalists on Terra, but I'm sure he blew some in glorious fashion beforehand. I think there's still a story or two there.

 

 

 

Or of Shiban for that matter, it didnt read to me like a death scene. It cut to black sure, but uniquely no one mentions it. Everyone that dies quickly in this book is immediately noted elsewhere. No one mentions Shiban.

Yeah, I mean, he's mostly mechanical now anyway. If he isn't dead now, he's likely to be by the time Wraight's novel ends anyway. He represents the Scars during the Heresy, literally in shackles, constrained by the circumstances forced upon them in the age of darkness. We may see a new WS character who was nothing before the Siege, but for whom this event defines their being. If Shiban is around he may interact with them and lend his perspective, but his arc seems mostly over. I could be wrong though.

Edited March 27, 2020 by LetsYouDown

[mc warhammer]

 

i'm trying to find things to be mad about or bummed, but i remain (cautiously) optimistic about this book.

 

as for abnett's long leash...at least in my experience...there is always a head or lead writer. sometimes that's a good thing or bad thing depending on the level of pushback or input the rest of the team have. i just have trouble imagining that adb and co have been totally sidelined (through either their own deference, editorial mandate or just dan's golden aura) to allow abnett to destroy the seige to the point that each author now only has one character each to write about for the remainder of the series

 

i think that a degree of the one ring power abnett has over BL is somewhat in reader's minds

It's the impact his stories have. The Alpha Legion, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Imperium Secundus. They all started with "I have an idea for a story". In my mind, I can still see Guilliman standing on the bridge of Macragge's Honour taking notes by hand on everything he can see in Calth's orbit.

That's the One Ring of power that Abnett has. And it works.

 

isn't "i have an idea" how you imagine most author's at those meetings pitch them?

 

these ideas, are also "offers". offers to other writers and to the IP in general. offers that need to be accepted before they are run with.

 

dan filled the sandpit with more toys, of varying quality perhaps, and they are there for all the other writer's to play with. i think they  need to be judged on the basis of how the entire team handled them after the fact. that goes for any toys also added by adb, thorpe, mcneill, etc

[b1soul]

@ mc

"i just have trouble imagining that adb and co have been totally sidelined (through either their own deference, editorial mandate or just dan's golden aura) to allow abnett to destroy the seige to the point that each author now only has one character each to write about for the remainder of the series"

 

I have trouble imagining that too. Dan has some pretty unique ideas and the rest of the BL team may or may not be more likely to defer to his ideas because of his "aura"...but frankly, maybe he's just a good writer who happens to have whackier ideas. Does he enjoy BL's bias in his favour (like no other fellow authour enjoys)...that's quite speculative I think.

 

If ADB, French, Wraight or even Thorpe want to write something as impactful as Abnett, I am inclined to think BL would let them as long as it doesn't obliterate the setting.

 

For example, I think Deliverance Lost was a massive rug-pulling in regard to the very seminal and established lore on Corax and the RG, and BL just let Thorpe have at it.

Edited March 27, 2020 by b1soul

[Scribe]

 

If ADB, French, Wraight or even Thorpe want to write something as impactful as Abnett, I am inclined to think BL would let them as long as it doesn't obliterate the setting.

 

For example, I think Deliverance Lost was a massive rug-pulling in regard to the very seminal and established lore on Corax and the RG, and BL just let Thorpe have at it.

 

The difference is, they dont.

[Marshal Rohr]

This doesn’t feel like Dan said I’m going to bump off all these characters, does anyone mind? It feels like they all said we’ve got too many cooks in this kitchen and felt Dan could give them a good send off before we zoom in on Abaddon, Sigismund, Loken, and the other survivors for a more cohesive final arc. They can always go back and give these characters more love later. Edited March 27, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[b1soul]

@ Scribe

 

But I feel that's up to them.

 

Well, depending on the crowd, some were saying that MoM was a massive shock to the setting or the nature of the Emperor (I'm not endorsing this vew) and, like I said, Thorpe definitely rewrote established RG fluff.

 

So I don't think it's necessarily a case of Abnett getting away with these things more often because BL prostrates itself before his greatness...it could just be that Abnett more often has interest in shaking up established fluff.

Edited March 27, 2020 by b1soul

[Scribe]

Anyone shocked at MoM didnt understand or know the setting.

 

And yes, I'm not saying they all bend the knee, but that they are respectful enough of the SHARED CANON OF THE SETTING, that they simply dont do it.

 

EDIT: Regardless, its off topic, I look forward to reading this book, and most of the spoilers are fine.

 

NEXT BOOK?!

Edited March 27, 2020 by Scribe

[b1soul]

How has Dan disrespected the setting?

 

You're also pretending to have the ability to peer into the BL team's heads...

[StrangerOrders]

Its weird how often I see MoM come up along with a complete lack of knowledge on its contents (namely ADB's whole 'eye of the beholder' thing).

 

Its similarly odd how many people seem to have a Valdor-shaped hole in their knowledge (its been out for a good while now).

 

Not accusing anyone here but as I think it will happen with this book (mainly Erdu), I think its worth discussing.

 

Heck, believe it or not, I have already seen her used on reddit by someone who was clearly and horrifically misinformed (rants about using her to justify the accusation of the Emp being a misogynist is a really weird read of her scenes. ). 

Edited March 27, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[b1soul]

Again, I don't buy that Saturnine or Dan disrespects the setting. I think it's more possible that Saturnine and Dan don't always jive with a few readers' preferences for the setting, e.g. "Perpetuals are bad and totally different from the Sensei, which may or may not be bad as well"

[mc warhammer]

i'm not a ...huge fan...of (uninformed) conjecture. i think we can all admit we have nearly no insight into other people's minds. and even within my own industry, the longer i'm in it, i realise that a lot of what i thought i once knew about it is either slightly off or totally wrong.

 

so if we agree that the idea of "guessing" is not that helpful (at least when presented as cold hard fact) maybe the best we can do is refer to adb's generous insights on this forum?

 

regarding IP meetings and the siege: he mentioned sevetar's name coming up in meetings and that he personally shot those down because of his plans for the character, which suggests authors do have some influence over character arcs that they're working on. that makes it less likely that wraight had

shiban

ripped from his grip or that french lost

little horus

to dan's all consuming bloodlust. adb also described the siege meetings as operating at a level of cohesion and cooperation and idea sharing that's unprecedented in BL's history. that says to me that nobody has gone rogue and everyone is all-in on the big beats and deaths.

 

on dan's singular author's "privilege": i think adb described it more as a difference in approach. it's not that dan is the only one allowed to come up with and implement the big ideas...it's that that is his approach. he goes big, adb prefers conservatism. adb also says swallow tends toward the big and brash too and his ideas are also approved. so it's not that adb and co aren't allowed to have an erda moment, it's likely they don't lean toward the "big and brash".

 

on big lore changing ideas or disrespecting the setting: both dan and adb added unreliable narrative teases about the lost legions (that the space wolves wiped them out and that they were ingested into the ultramarines respectively). dan and adb discussed future use of the sw as executioners extensively and adb is the author who ran with that concept the most after its introduction. dan also gets saddled with the alpha legion twins thing, when adb makes it clear it was a directive from the IP. he says that the "The HH series is strictly monitored by the IP department. To suggest otherwise is wrong. End of story." it almost sounds like some readers suggest that the reverse is true.

 

on ollie's role in this book and the siege: don't forget that adb was the one on here saying that having a guardsman on the vengeful spirit is silly and deserved the retcon it got over the years. that may be what dan's historical myth building in this book is laying the groundwork for. chances are, since he's writing the final book, dan will still take the heat for that moment.

Edited March 27, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Chapter Master Valrak]

All the spoilers, read at your own risk 

https://pastebin.com/iNNU8Qxw

[StrangerOrders]

Saw those, didnt like their being a pretty sharp example of utterly lacking context.

[RedFurioso]

StrangerOrders, could you recall names of Titan Legions from the book please?