Ritual of the Damned - Psychic Awakening

[Irbis]

 

How would people feel about a plasma and volkite oriented doctrine to offer incentive to use volkite weapons

I'd love a plasma doctrine. Volkites though? While cool, there aren't many, if any, non-forgeworld units that use Volkite.

I'd honestly prefer grav doctrine. Plasma one is kind of dumb, it was fine when it was the only 'high' tech special weapon, but plasma is so common (even IG uses tons of it) that the grav focus would be much better at showing 'archaotech' side of the chapter. I wouldn't mind DA being moved to grav, it would give them a niche no one else has and it would give grav weaponry a flavor of its own (much like flamers with Salamanders, or melta with BA).

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

 

How would people feel about a plasma and volkite oriented doctrine to offer incentive to use volkite weapons

I'd love a plasma doctrine. Volkites though? While cool, there aren't many, if any, non-forgeworld units that use Volkite.

I'd honestly prefer grav doctrine. Plasma one is kind of dumb, it was fine when it was the only 'high' tech special weapon, but plasma is so common (even IG uses tons of it) that the grav focus would be much better at showing 'archaotech' side of the chapter. I wouldn't mind DA being moved to grav, it would give them a niche no one else has and it would give grav weaponry a flavor of its own (much like flamers with Salamanders, or melta with BA).

 

 

We are not going to undo the identity of the army just because everyone spam Plasma now.

[jaxom]

 

 

What we wont get ...

 

[snip]

• Chapter trait for a mono-codex DA army

 

This is the one thing that we're very likely to get. Blood Angels received the full Angels of Death package and Savage Echoes mono-chapter/codex bonus. Is it possible there will be something that works with or promotes mono-Ravenwing, mono-Deathwing, or dual-Raven- and Deathwing? Yes, however, I think if that is going to be the case will be on top of a super-doctrine rather than instead of it. 

 

There's a possibility the super-doctrine will be designed to extend the utility of Grim Resolve to unique aspects of the Dark Angels (Ravenwing and Deathwing) Super-doctrines and chapter specific stratagems all seem like they were intended to stress differences within the Codex spectrum. For Dark Angels, that's the Ravenwing and the Deathwing. However, as much as some may not like it, stratagems have also been used to similar effect. For example, Black Templars and Blood Angels are both Assault Doctrine oriented, but the former's stratagems promote a very different list style than the latter. Is CP an issue if that is the case and one wants to go without Greenwing? Yes, very much so. However, I think that is a very different conversation regarding assumptions the design team made regarding the utility of "elite formations" versus a combined arms force in this edition; I think it's part of a larger conversation to be had regarding list balance, CP balance, and stratagem use.

 

EDIT: Regarding plasma. This forum once had a very large, in-depth conversation about what Dark Angels would look like if they had their own codex. It was one that helped inform the fourth edition codex. Access to rare and unusual weapons was agreed upon by all. What type? Archeotech was an option. The plasma faction, though, was the "winner" (for lack of a better term). Dark Angel Tactical Squads with plasma cannons were unique for a time. Bikers with plasma mantle-mounted weapons are still unique. Land Speeder Vengeance, unique and more plasma. It doesn't matter that other factions can spam it now; if they started spamming flamers I don't think anyone would suggest the Salamanders start looking at other options for Chapter rules and stratagems. Plasma is the the Dark Angels weapon niche now and we have ourselves to thank for it.

Edited December 27, 2019 by jaxom

[Irbis]

We are not going to undo the identity of the army just because everyone spam Plasma now.

 

If by 'now' you mean 'since 3rd edition', then yeah, ""now""

 

Also funny how you speak about 'identity' when current DA are the effect of lazy, least resistance retcons in 6th/7th edition, making this ""identity"" largely nonexisting, recent cop-out. I'd prefer vastly superior, much more interesting 'identity' DA got in FW Horus Heresy books, if you prefer green Imperial Fists, that's on you. And not like it can't be done, SW and BA were redefined quite recently to make them more distinct and interesting, I'd prefer DA got that treatment too.

[jaxom]

Dark Angels have long been on the road to the sort of identity crisis which makes it very hard for a concept team to plan out where to go. Second and the earlier days of third edition were relatively light on background and stories compared to the mid-2000s and onward. As the individual sub-factions got fleshed out there was a lot of diminishing what made the Dark Angels stand out.

 

1999

Third edition codex comes out. The accompanying White Dwarf contains almost all of the existing fluff at the time and helps to establish the Chapter's warrior-monk culture descended from the knights of the Order. The reader/player is left to extrapolate what this means as there is little detail. The holy trinity of Dark Angel stories at this point is Deathwing, The Black Pearl, and Eye of Terror (the last of which has faded into oblivion from current lore considerations). Deathwing is the only one which examines the Dark Angels beyond their relationship with the Fallen.

 

2000

Codex: Armageddon and a massive expansion of lore for the Black Templars. The Black Templars explicitly get the knightly trappings; Teutonic in nature.

 

2001

Index Astartes: The Unforgiven in White Dwarf. A comprehensive repackaging of much of the chapter lore from Codex: Angels of Death and earlier White Dwarfs. By this point it is firmly established that the Lion and Russ were the only two Primarchs to approach Horus's tally of victories, they were fighting alongside each other on the far side of the galaxy when the Heresy began and made the trek to Terra together. Russ insisted they stop to help beleaguered loyalists along the way so the Lion blamed him for arriving too late. The Fallen are explicitly referred to as the driving force behind the Chapter's actions.

 

2002

Index Astartes: Emperor's Fist in White Dwarf. The Dark Angels are replaced by the Imperial Fists as the most stubborn, intractable, don't fall back even when they should chapter. "Their dogged resistance against overwhelming odds is legendary. In situations where even other Space Marines would fall back, the [guess the chapter] will fight to the bitter end rather than give ground to their foes. This is also reflected in their stubborn refusal to move in the face of the enemy, even in situations where it would sometimes be tactically beneficial to do so."

That's Dark Angels description, but at this point in time would you be able to tell?

 

2003

Angels of Darkness is released. Gav Thorpe challenges everyone with a simple question: What does it mean to be a Dark Angel? Many seeds are sown and many factions form within the Dark Angels community. The ones with the longest lasting impact were pride in being the First Founding chapter of the First Legion and friction between Terran and Calibanite factions within the legion.

 

2006

Horus Rising is released, 'nuff said.

 

2007

Descent of Angels is released. It focuses overwhelmingly on the friction within the Dark Angels legion and on the surface it fosters an impression that the Lion is one awkward duck in dealing with people. At the same time the Order is established as knights, but knights organized like the Illuminati. There is literally one line the Lion offers to Zahariel which goes a long way to explain it: no one on Caliban ever thought to ask if his senses were as super as his strength and toughness; implying that within the closed confines of an echoing stone fortress he's heard a lot of what people say behind other people's backs.

 

2010+

Horus Heresy novels and short stories are now firmly established and have over-ridden the previous lore of the Lion and Russ being the next most victorious compared to Horus and their deployment at the start of the Heresy and the path to Terra. Leman Russ: The Great Wolf does re-affirm the duel at Dulan, the Lion stabbing Russ after the Siege of Terra, but is vague on if they had made the final journey there together or had independently stayed out in the void too long. Fallen Angels and the Dark Angels short stories are a mess of contradictions and there's no firm identity or culture to the First Legion. Gav Thorpe is brought in to smooth out some of this and Angels of Caliban is released in 2016. It is rumored that the new material regarding the Hexagrammaton are from Alan Bligh's notes for the Forge World black book Dark Angels. Horus Heresy: Retribution is released in 2016 with, especially in retrospect, very odd rules compared to other legions. At this point in time the Dark Angels are the most contradictory, least defined, and most poorly handled of the 18 legions.

 

2017

Rise of the Primarch prominently features the Dark Angels in the coronation of Guilliman, but the third faction is Fallen and Cypher gets a new model. Eighth edition and Primaris marines are released. The community is worried about what this means for the future of original marines and in particular unique units like Terminators, Bikers, Assault Marines, Sanguinary Guard, and the like. The Dark Angels (players and in-lore) proceed to lose their heads about what having Primaris in the chapter might mean for the Inner Circle, the Hunt, etc. The player base, in particular, also worries about what this means for Deathing Terminators, Ravenwing Bikers, and the various Land Speeder variants unique to the chapter.

 

TL;DR: The Dark Angels were (unintentionally) set up to fail. They have a number of mechanically unique vehicle units which are safe from Primaris creep, but their iconic units, the Deathwing Terminator and Ravenwing Biker (and variants thereof), are in purgatory along with Space Marine Terminators and Bikers in general. The stress on the Fallen and the Inner Circle creates a difficulty incorporating Primaris units that doesn't exist anywhere else. They have no other defining feature to help smooth the transition because they were parceled out to other factions over time. The Dark Angels are a hot mess and we won't see any meaningful progress for them as a product line until someone sets the party line behind the scenes.

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

We are not going to undo the identity of the army just because everyone spam Plasma now.

 

If by 'now' you mean 'since 3rd edition', then yeah, ""now""

 

Also funny how you speak about 'identity' when current DA are the effect of lazy, least resistance retcons in 6th/7th edition, making this ""identity"" largely nonexisting, recent cop-out. I'd prefer vastly superior, much more interesting 'identity' DA got in FW Horus Heresy books, if you prefer green Imperial Fists, that's on you. And not like it can't be done, SW and BA were redefined quite recently to make them more distinct and interesting, I'd prefer DA got that treatment too.

 

 

That doesn't change the fact we have currently plasma land speeder, plasma bikers, plasma etc... as model range. So according to you what should we do ? Make them OOP to put them in Legends, invalidating our armies and then go for grav weaponry ? Not going to happen imo.

[Grimdark_Garage]

 

What we wont get ...

 

[snip]

 

• Chapter trait for a mono-codex DA army

 

This is the one thing that we're very likely to get. Blood Angels received the full Angels of Death package and Savage Echoes mono-chapter/codex bonus.

Sorry you're right. I had it in my head that BA didn't get their mono codex buff but I was thinking of Chaos.

[Chaplain Elijah]

I wish Interrogator Chaplains will be able to use 2 litanies per turn, that way they would truely be better than the normal ones.

[G8Keeper]

I wish Interrogator Chaplains will be able to use 2 litanies per turn, that way they would truely be better than the normal ones.

Well, they're going to have a new datasheet so who knows.

[jaxom]

In my happy place Interrogator-Chaplains don’t get Litanies of Battle, but get Cold Stares of Disapproval instead :wink:

[Fierce Bear]

 

I wish Interrogator Chaplains will be able to use 2 litanies per turn, that way they would truely be better than the normal ones.

Well, they're going to have a new datasheet so who knows.

This actually seems highly likely based on the Blood of Baal and BA Chaplain's...

[sneakybamsen]

We more or less know we're in for the type of treatment Blood Angels got, and since they got treated good, I am struggling not to get my hopes up for what can be done after the book hits the shelves.

 

We could be a devastator doctrine kind of army as I see it. It at least goes kind of hand in hand with the stoicism that gave us the grim resolve rules of 7th edition and in part the ones we have now.

 

While that might not sit too well with our somewhat different "structure" to other chapters, if given just some of the rules IH got, we could be in for a massive lift.

 

With CA 2019 in place and the reductions some of our least seen units had, I think we could be in for some quite different DA lists that include these units.

 

Specifically I am thinking of Nephilim Jetfighters (142 pts), Land Speeders (typhoons at 87 pts) and Land Speeder Vengeance (100 pts). They have not had it easy for the last couple of years, they suffered from high costs, heavy weapons and low durability. The latter is less acute when they are cheaper, as that makes us able to bring more. Heavy weapons is the actual key here. If we do get ability to move and shoot without suffering penalties for firing heavy weapons like IH have it now in devastator doctrine, and you perhaps combine these units with other somewhat mobile platforms and some indirect fire, I think you could get close to something quite powerful. Of course we should not be the new IH of the meta, that would just be sad, as it is no fun to play the army you love but being frowned upon just because people think you play them because of the rules. But a few tweaks would really help sort some issues. Having this change would help all of our wings, although some would benefit more than others.

 

Now, I know the LSV has issues with it's plasma storm battery having the worst overcharge rules in the game, but I have hopes that they might actually do something for that. If they make us the "plasma chapter" like they tried to with WftdA, I think they could do something to the overcharge mechanic. Just giving us more damage on plasma would be broken and stupid. The LSV suffers from moving and shooting (but that will hopefully change), especially when you need the S8 D2 shooting. But with the size of the plasma cannons on that thing, and since there are two of them, I think it would be fair if it had some serious changes done to it.

 

For RW and DW it would be easy to just do "tactical" and "assault" doctrine-like rules. I don't think they should, but I also don't think doing doctrines for a company is the right way of setting that company apart from the rest of the marines. Doing doctrines for ravenwing and deathwing would be at odds with the whole doctrine mechanic in my opinion. It would be poor design. I would much rather have a minor but flavourfull and fluff-oriented added rule to the units, and then just let them be affected by regular doctrines like everyone else. Our terminators and bikers+speeders+planes shouldn't be that special just to be special. Also it just sounds wrong to have something called ravenwing doctrine when you don't even run ravenwing units...

 

I am currently participating in an escalation league in which game 4 is coming up next week. It's 1750, and when that round is done, we're moving into the next heat which is 2000 points. And that won't start untill February, so PA arrives just in time for that. Also bringing the First to a club tournament on the 19th of january and a 30-man ETC-style tournament on the 2nd of February. At least I know I can use PA rules for the last one (which is good as it is quite the competitive meta with quite a few of the members of the danish ETC team present).

 

/Sneaks

[Chaplain Elijah]

New Primaris models incoming (if you play Ravenwing enjoy) :

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/360829-primaris-land-speeder-bikers/

[Grimdark_Garage]

Great comments there Sneaks.

 

I agree that we should see benefits for our Greenwing in regards to the doctrines and further specific enhancments to <RAVENWING> and <DEATHWING>.

Saying that, there will be (and should be) some tax for these enhancements. Like you must take a pure RW or DW detachment to unlock the benefits.

 

For example,

if in a Detachment you have all <RAVENWING> or <DEATHWING> and your entire force has the <DARK ANGEL> keyword, choose one of three Specialist Doctrines

 

Ravenwing :

1. All RAVENWING units in this detahcment may move and fire heavy weapons without penalty

2. if any RAVENWING units from this detahcment advance, they may shoot in the shooting phase as if they had not advanced and may charge in the Charge phase.

3. After any RAVENWING unit that has charged this turn has fought in the fight phase, they may immediately move as if it is the movement phase. If any enemy models are within 1" of the unit, they may fall back instead.

 

Deathwing :

1. All DEATHWING units in this detahcment may use their Teleport ability at the end of the owning players first movement phase.

2. When arriving from reserve, any DEATHWING unit from this detahcment may move D6 inches immediately after being setup.

3. All DEATHWING units from this detahcment may move and fire heavy weapons without penalty and do not suffer ANY negative modifiers to hit in the fight phase.

[sneakybamsen]

New Primaris models incoming (if you play Ravenwing enjoy) :

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/360829-primaris-land-speeder-bikers/

 

That looks so much like it is done in MS Paint ;)

[Archaeinox]

Dang I hope that stuff is real for yall's sake. That'd be really cool! Fingers crossed you get new toys

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/12/30/psychic-awakening-enmitys-edge/

Edited December 30, 2019 by Archaeinox

[jbaeza94]

Someone else linked the new models first it seems Edited December 30, 2019 by jbaeza94

[G8Keeper]

Saturday is the new year's open day right? Reveals for these maybe?

[Guest]

Primaris Ravenwing possible :)...

 

 

 

:D

Edited December 31, 2019 by Interrogator Stobz

[jbaeza94]

Primaris Ravenwing possible :)...

 

 

 

:D

I hope not, still need to finish my other guys D:

 

*cries in piles of plastic and resin*

 

 

But seriously, this is cool. I wouldn't want foot infantry in my rw equivalent anyways. Bikes and speeders!

 

I also hope they arent hover, it takes away from Sammy's special bike

Edited December 31, 2019 by Interrogator Stobz

[Aztek]

Very cool if it's real, which I think it is.

[Master Sheol]

With leaks of possibile primaris bikers and LS i really Hope PA4 Will not force on foot units in RW but they Will wait until this new units are released instead

[G8Keeper]

There's also this up, not sure if it's been mentioned yet:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/12/30/psychic-awakening-enmitys-edge/

[Archaeinox]

Shame that 3 short stories are up and we have zero rules previews

[Berzul]

I don't think we will have anything before, at the very least, the first weekend after new years.