8th Ed Sister Dex FAQ

[tvih]

Personally I already consider them worth it... even more so if the 16 points WITH wargear turns out to be correct (and won't get FAQed). In fact if that is the case I guess I'll finally have to splurge for the plastic Celestine, seeing as otherwise I only have one model I can use as Geminae. They're especially worth it if you do run Celestine. Whether 16 or 20, that's only 8-10 points for an additional wound for Celestine (plus any Healing Tears usage), as well as the extra attacks, if you think of it that way. Even on their own they're not bad. They do lack the Zephyrim rerolls to wound, but the extra attack and wound more than make up for that compared to a Zephyrim. They do suffer a bit in terms of Celestine synergy not being the same unit, but on the other it hand it can allow them to do things they couldn't if they were the same unit.

 

A point of curiosity though. They are indeed characters, but in a unit. If only one of them dies when you have two, I suppose you should still get a MD? Then you could possibly resurrect, and get it again. Of course it's an unlikely scenario at least more than once per opponent. And still possible to get two MD if they don't both die in the same phase.

 

All in all if you run Zephyrim and/or Celestine I see no reason to not bring the wonder twins along for the ride too.

[Lemondish]

 

 

Is it worth bringing a single gemina just to run around, die and earn you a miracle die then?

Just for that purpose I'd say no, considering it may just give your opponent extra victory points which I'd consider more valuable than a MD.

Well no, not JUST for that purpose. She is still a 2W 3A character so she can throw Krak grenades, possibly tie things up (though what I don’t know, LOL). I mean, I get what you’re saying but her (their) points have gone down pretty consistently to the point where they’re now cheaper than Zephyrim...

 

IS there a points cost at which they’d be viable? Or would they not be worth it even if we were getting them for free?

 

 

16 points is plenty viable...provided they were still part of Celestine's unit. As a separate unit their main issues are things that they never had to contend with when they were with Celestine. Healing Tears was nerfed inadvertently when the Geminae were separated from her. The bodyguard rule is a poor substitute for being able to allocate wounds to them in the normal course of resolving an attack. They also can fail or succeed a charge independent of Celestine, which put them in a rough situation (or her in one), which hampers their role as bodyguards. All in all the only thing they truly bring is a 2W 3A character that is cheaper than a Zephyrim but comes without Rapturous Blows, cannot benefit from the Pennant, any stratagems, order convictions, etc. 

 

They are just "okay" on their own as bodyguards now that Eliminators exist, which still gives them a role when all others were taken from them. 

 

Honestly, I would have thought Celestine feedback would have been a major change they would have considered going from the beta codex to this one. Acts of Faith and the Exorcist were pretty decent changes that it makes me sad to see that Celestine and the Geminae remain so weak. 

[BaronTuman]

<snip>

A point of curiosity though. They are indeed characters, but in a unit. If only one of them dies when you have two, I suppose you should still get a MD? Then you could possibly resurrect, and get it again. Of course it's an unlikely scenario at least more than once per opponent. And still possible to get two MD if they don't both die in the same phase.

<snip>

I would say it's a clear no.  Sacrifice says "A Character unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability..." So unit, not model.

 

[ValourousHeart]

Question on MD generation.

 

I understand that destroying a unit is all tied to removal of that last wound from the unit.

And as such in order to generate the MD, a sister unit with the Acts of Faith rule has to be the cause of that unit losing that last wound.

But does that have to be tied to an attack roll made by the sisters in the shooting phase or assault phase?

 

If an enemy unit that was forced to take a morale test because of wounds caused by a BSS, fails the roll and the last squad member flees, would that generate a MD?

It would seem weird that the same event that would award a point for destroying a unit as an objective wouldn't also be counted as destroying a unit for the purposes of generating MD.

 

Two gemini Superia charge a character with a combi-plasma.

The character has 1 wound left and so the player decides to throw out everything in overwatch, firing both parts of a combi-weapon, and over charge the plasma.

Rolls a 1 on one of the plasma and is destroyed.

Would that gain a MD?

[taikishi]

Point of contention:

 

Geminae are only cheaper than Zephyrim if CA 2019 is accurate. If the codex is accurate, they're still 1ppm more expensive.

 

That said, the problem with the Geminae is their rules, especially being a separate unit. At T3, 2W, it won't take much to remove them from the board. Add in the fact they only tank wounds on a 2+ (taking mortal wounds in the process) and the fact you can't bring them back with Healing Tears the moment both die and the fact they must make advance rolls separately, charge rolls separately, and only the Geminae OR Celestine can perform an AoF in a phase...

 

I'd probably take them if they were free or so ridiculously cheap that their other rules don't matter. Otherwise, the fix that needs to be done (and won't) is to put them back in Celestine's unit.

[Slasher956]

Or they errata celestines healing tears to say that you can bring the germinae back to the amount in your list irrespective if the unit has been destroyed...

[Lemondish]

Or they errata celestines healing tears to say that you can bring the germinae back to the amount in your list irrespective if the unit has been destroyed...

 

That would certainly resolve the Healing Tears interaction being lame and underpowered. 

 

But would not resolve the need to make a separate charge or advance roll alongside the limited bodyguard range that makes it dangerous to do any of those things without expending MD to ensure the outcome. 

 

I think the old index Celestine but with the current Shield of Faith and Acts of Faith rules is a more interesting, fun, and powerful character than her current incarnation. It also helps that it is a lot more balanced character than the original index version. 

[tvih]

 

<snip>

A point of curiosity though. They are indeed characters, but in a unit. If only one of them dies when you have two, I suppose you should still get a MD? Then you could possibly resurrect, and get it again. Of course it's an unlikely scenario at least more than once per opponent. And still possible to get two MD if they don't both die in the same phase.

<snip>

I would say it's a clear no.  Sacrifice says "A Character unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability..." So unit, not model.

Yeah, you're correct - I should've checked the exact wording of the rule rather than going on memory.

[Raven1]

@Taikishi, CA2019 is the latest publication and is accurate until an FAQ/errara/rulebook with a more recent publication date is published.

 

@ValourousHeart, shooting attacks, overwatch shots, and CC attq is are similarly resolved so a unit would count as slain or destroyed when reduced to 0 wounds from attacks (ranged/melee) and so would activate the AoF special rule accordingly. In the morale phase the model is simply removed from play. It does not count as slain or destroyed. An enemy model who suicides by overwatch generated the the attack that caused it to be slain. So in your case the an AoF unit who charged didnt cause the wound it wouldn't count.

 

I would also argue that if a cannoness with a combi-plasma died by overcharged plasma it wouldn't meet the "Vengeance" requirement for the miracle dice, because its slain outright by the plasma special ability not slain by an attack made by an AoF unit but it would be generated through "Sacrifice"

[EmperorGTank]

I honestly think just giving Celestine her 1 wound she lost back would've made her much better than she currently is, though being able to perform a free AoF for herself or someone in 6", which now means just using a free MD each turn, would've at least made her worth her 160 pricetag. At this point she's a decent buff unit that can at least crump most basic combat HQs, though, as I think someone stated in a previous thread, now she feels more like her old 135 point model back before her rework in 7th.

 

Personally I just think it hurts that she is one of the only faction special HQs/characters without some kind of built in reroll for herself or others. Even just a reroll to hit or wound against characters would be nice, I understand shes not the most amazing melee combatant but she DID fight Abaddon pretty well during the fall of Cadia, that's gotta count for something.

[ERJAK]

Personally I already consider them worth it... even more so if the 16 points WITH wargear turns out to be correct (and won't get FAQed). In fact if that is the case I guess I'll finally have to splurge for the plastic Celestine, seeing as otherwise I only have one model I can use as Geminae. They're especially worth it if you do run Celestine. Whether 16 or 20, that's only 8-10 points for an additional wound for Celestine (plus any Healing Tears usage), as well as the extra attacks, if you think of it that way. Even on their own they're not bad. They do lack the Zephyrim rerolls to wound, but the extra attack and wound more than make up for that compared to a Zephyrim. They do suffer a bit in terms of Celestine synergy not being the same unit, but on the other it hand it can allow them to do things they couldn't if they were the same unit.

 

A point of curiosity though. They are indeed characters, but in a unit. If only one of them dies when you have two, I suppose you should still get a MD? Then you could possibly resurrect, and get it again. Of course it's an unlikely scenario at least more than once per opponent. And still possible to get two MD if they don't both die in the same phase.

 

All in all if you run Zephyrim and/or Celestine I see no reason to not bring the wonder twins along for the ride too.

Gotta disagree. In my personal opinion the Geminae are arguably the worst unit in the game.

 

First problem is the Geminae don't actually have +1 attack over zephyrim, thanks to not benefiting from Convictions. A (as in ONE) basic bloody rose Zephyrim does the same amount of damage as both geminae put together.

 

They don't work as bodyguards, Celestine isn't really valuable enough to justify bodyguards anymore, they don't do any damage in melee (they barely kill a tac marine between them) they're fragile, they can't deepstrike, they don't benefit from convictions. They just don't accomplish any job and give up victory points very easily.

 

Even if they were free it would be a hard choice between the value of having less models to carry around vs what they offer on the tabletop.

 

There are so many really great options in the new book it seems sad to spend points on geminae superia. Even worse when you consider how useful Inq stuff is for us.

Edited December 11, 2019 by ERJAK

[tvih]

I'll give you the lack of Deep Striking, it's odd that they nor Celestine can do it (wouldn't that be an appropriate miraculous intervention?).

 

Your attack comparison is kinda flawed, considering most people don't play Bloody Rose. You can't generalize based on one Order.

 

If Celestine doesn't warrant the enemy attention to require bodyguards, that just leaves them free to do stuff. I can see them being midfielders with Celestine where they can go wherever quickly, and quite possibly benefitting from some reroll auras while at it. You may consider them fragile, but when near Celestine they're a combined 4W 3/6A 3+/4++ AP -3 high mobility unit that can to a point regen without a separate medic (but can also benefit from one, just that Hospitallers have trouble keeping up). I say that's not bad for 40 points, never mind 32 if what's been said about CA19 turns out staying true.

 

Sure, they're a bit weak against Snipers, but for example if some Eliminators are wasting their bullets on Geminae instead of your other characters, they're already worth it. If on the other hand all your other characters are already dead, you're in trouble with or without Geminae. The better Snipers are a threat to ANY of our (or most codices') characters.

 

Also I'm surprised you say there are many great options, considering whatever unit option is being discussed at any given time, you're there to put it down. Especially for non-Bloody Rose lists the Geminae are certainly a better value than Zephyrim especially if 16 points, so belittling them saying they're not worth it even if free is just pointlessly smearing grox droppings over the conversation.

[Slasher956]

Guys please can we take the discussion of Celestine & Geminae to another thread and leave this one for FAQs on our dex?

 

thank you, Thread opener!

[taikishi]

I'll give you the lack of Deep Striking, it's odd that they nor Celestine can do it (wouldn't that be an appropriate miraculous intervention?).

 

Your attack comparison is kinda flawed, considering most people don't play Bloody Rose. You can't generalize based on one Order.

 

If Celestine doesn't warrant the enemy attention to require bodyguards, that just leaves them free to do stuff. I can see them being midfielders with Celestine where they can go wherever quickly, and quite possibly benefitting from some reroll auras while at it. You may consider them fragile, but when near Celestine they're a combined 4W 3/6A 3+/4++ AP -3 high mobility unit that can to a point regen without a separate medic (but can also benefit from one, just that Hospitallers have trouble keeping up). I say that's not bad for 40 points, never mind 32 if what's been said about CA19 turns out staying true.

 

Sure, they're a bit weak against Snipers, but for example if some Eliminators are wasting their bullets on Geminae instead of your other characters, they're already worth it. If on the other hand all your other characters are already dead, you're in trouble with or without Geminae. The better Snipers are a threat to ANY of our (or most codices') characters.

 

Also I'm surprised you say there are many great options, considering whatever unit option is being discussed at any given time, you're there to put it down. Especially for non-Bloody Rose lists the Geminae are certainly a better value than Zephyrim especially if 16 points, so belittling them saying they're not worth it even if free is just pointlessly smearing grox droppings over the conversation.

 

Devil's advocate: Great options don't necessarily have to be things from C:AS. They can be Inquisition, assassins, Guard, AdMech, smash captains, etc...

[Slasher956]

Question - whats the proper cost of the Geminea... is it 16 + equipment (codex) or 16 inc equipent (CA2019)?

[tvih]

Question - whats the proper cost of the Geminea... is it 16 + equipment (codex) or 16 inc equipent (CA2019)?

16 at least for now since CA2019 is the newer publication, but I wouldn't bet on it staying that way.

[ERJAK]

I'll give you the lack of Deep Striking, it's odd that they nor Celestine can do it (wouldn't that be an appropriate miraculous intervention?).

 

Your attack comparison is kinda flawed, considering most people don't play Bloody Rose. You can't generalize based on one Order.

 

If Celestine doesn't warrant the enemy attention to require bodyguards, that just leaves them free to do stuff. I can see them being midfielders with Celestine where they can go wherever quickly, and quite possibly benefitting from some reroll auras while at it. You may consider them fragile, but when near Celestine they're a combined 4W 3/6A 3+/4++ AP -3 high mobility unit that can to a point regen without a separate medic (but can also benefit from one, just that Hospitallers have trouble keeping up). I say that's not bad for 40 points, never mind 32 if what's been said about CA19 turns out staying true.

 

Sure, they're a bit weak against Snipers, but for example if some Eliminators are wasting their bullets on Geminae instead of your other characters, they're already worth it. If on the other hand all your other characters are already dead, you're in trouble with or without Geminae. The better Snipers are a threat to ANY of our (or most codices') characters.

 

Also I'm surprised you say there are many great options, considering whatever unit option is being discussed at any given time, you're there to put it down. Especially for non-Bloody Rose lists the Geminae are certainly a better value than Zephyrim especially if 16 points, so belittling them saying they're not worth it even if free is just pointlessly smearing grox droppings over the conversation.

 

 

I don't put down unit options(with Geminae and the new immolator being notable exceptions. In my defense, they're terrible), I temper expectations. People here talk about every unit in the gorram codex like it's going to kill 14 Knight Castellan's in one round of shooting, whether they have guns or not. There are plenty of great units in the book, and just because I disagree that one Zephyrim will kill an entire Iron Hands army by itself(as is so often the claim by you and several other people on this forum.) doesn't mean I don't think they're good, I just think the crazy optimism people have here is wrong. Somebody has to be the one to say 'sorry but your min unit of battle sisters aren't going to beat Magnus in melee hun' and it's certainly not going to be you.

 

Mortifiers are great, Arcos are great, repentia are great if you use them right, Canonesses are great, Zephyrim are great if you're smart with them, Retributors are great, but you have to facilitate them and not expect a min heavy bolter squad to knock out 2 maxed out units of Boyz like people on B&C think they can, exorcists are great but can be very fragile in practice, battle sisters are very efficient but can be difficult to leverage without Argent Shroud, Seraphim are AMAZING, and we have very efficient buff characters across the board. 

 

Those are all examples of strong options, and by no means the only things in the book you can find success with. And all examples of things you can invest 40pts into that will be way better than Geminae.

 

The geminae's speed doesn't matter because they don't do anything when they get there. You can't even charge scouts with them because they'll just die. None of the aura abilities we have access to make them able to kill anything, even cultists laugh them off pretty easily. They're not weak to snipers, they're weak to that unit of objective camping fire warriors that just killed them in overwatch, or those nurglings that just killed them in melee. Everyone that takes Zephyrim takes bloody rose, there's not really a point to Zephyrim otherwise. It damn near doubles their damage output. The fact that geminae don't benefit from OCs is a big part of why they're so bad and absolutely should be taken into account when you compare them to other units. 

 

I truly genuinely wouldn't take them if they were free. That's not an exaggeration. It's largely due to the fact that I hate them, though I could argue for a practical reason not to take them. YOU ARE CORRECT that in reality their value in a game is not 0. They do offer some small benefit, and no matter how meager it is, it does still make them worth something.

 

It could be argued that that benefit is less than the practical, irl cost of transporting them. They're fragile flight stand models and take up a fair amount of space. You could absolutely justify not taking them, even when free, due to the practical concern of getting them from one place to another without destroying them.

[tvih]

Your continued diatribe about not taking them even for free makes it perfectly clear just how pointless it is to waste time discussing anything with you but hey, my whole life is futile anyway so why the heck not. I'm quite aware that this isn't really a competitive codex as a whole. I have no delusions about what it can do, despite your delusions about my delusions. My upcoming Crimson Fists tournament list could most likely destroy every vehicle my planned Sisters lists have on turn 1 and a number of infantry on top, so I guess I should throw the whole Sisters army in the trash because they're not worth taking or carrying to the gaming table for how oh-so-troublesome it is and how they get nothing done but get removed from the table. Just to manage the expectations and all, you know.

[Aqui]

=][= Okay, that's enough. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and that not everyone agrees with the opinions of others, but if Frater continue to bicker then something will be done about it. So, if it continues appropriate action will be taken =][=

[Lemondish]

I think we should get back to asking questions, not making up arguments nobody ever made so that we can refute them.

 

And as far as I'm concerned we really actually do benefit from asking GW to clarify the points cost confusion here, even if you don't care about the unit in question. Instead I'm seeing fraters try and shout down the idea with hyperbolic strawmen. Let's get back to the regularly scheduled reality, please.

[brother carc]

So here’s a question...

 

Say my first miracle dice is a 5. I’m playing argent shroud.

 

- I gain my first miracle dice at the beginning of the battle round.

- my dominions vanguard at the start of the battle round

- they move as if it the movement phase

 

Can they advance in that vanguard move? And if so, can I use my miracle die on the advance?

[Slasher956]

So here’s a question...

 

Say my first miracle dice is a 5. I’m playing argent shroud.

 

- I gain my first miracle dice at the beginning of the battle round.

- my dominions vanguard at the start of the battle round

- they move as if it the movement phase

 

Can they advance in that vanguard move? And if so, can I use my miracle die on the advance?

 

 

This is the 1st question in the OP - can MD be used on vanguard advance roll (they can advance as the vanguard move is 'as in the movement phase' which includes advancing)

[Slasher956]

currently out of 11 questions we are on:

 

6 questions about MD

1 question on model points - 

1 on unit numbers

2 on weapon loadout options

1 on unit rule (intent on loss of part of a rule)

 

Not bad for a new codex thats been on limited release for 3 weeks and not on general release!

[Rasp]

Question: For a Cannoness equipping various rods, are the load outs very specific or are the two choices (Boltgun and power sword or bolt pistol and chainsword) starting points?

 

To clarify; If a bloody rose cannoness takes bolt pistol and chainsword and a null rod, can she upgrade to the relic chainsword? Beneficence is not a ”chainsword”, so she no longer has a chainsword for the null rod.

 

Or is it that bolt pistol and chainsword is starting point A and boltgun and power sword is starting point B. If you choose A you can take a null rod/brazier of holy fire. If you choose B you also have to take a rod of office.

 

Hope I explained that well, I’m a horrible writer. :)

[RolandTHTG]

GW has said that for Relics, they continue to count as what they replaced for the purposes of load-out legality and rules interactions. I.e the Relic Boltguns in various armies count as boltguns for stratagems. 

So she would continue to have a chainsword for the purposes of equipping the rod.

 

Rules as written though, there are two starting points (your A & B ) that unlock different rod options.

(This is why there are questions about loadouts, because the box cannoness is modeled illegally according to a strict reading of the rules.) 

Edited December 17, 2019 by RolandTHTG