8th Ed Sister Dex FAQ

[MoshJason]

 

In the missions where you can tailor your deck I can see sisters players removing the AoF tied ones more than before which is kinda silly....here let’s ignore my factions uniqueness .....

I don't understand why they would. All this did is clarify how many dice you can replace in one Act. It did not change anything about the number of Acts you could perform. Were people legitimately trying to argue that, not only was fast rolling an option for replacing multiple dice, but that doing so counted as multiple Acts for purposes of scoring those cards?

No, but that made it worth it more to get more dice. Now it's going to be hard to justify having enough dice to drop 6 AoFs.

[Lemondish]

 

 

In the missions where you can tailor your deck I can see sisters players removing the AoF tied ones more than before which is kinda silly....here let’s ignore my factions uniqueness .....

I don't understand why they would. All this did is clarify how many dice you can replace in one Act. It did not change anything about the number of Acts you could perform. Were people legitimately trying to argue that, not only was fast rolling an option for replacing multiple dice, but that doing so counted as multiple Acts for purposes of scoring those cards?

No, but that made it worth it more to get more dice. Now it's going to be hard to justify having enough dice to drop 6 AoFs.

I don't follow.

 

Keep in mind that everyone that competed with Sisters played the same exact way as the designer commentary explained in this FAQ. That was how it was interpreted in many a tournament.

 

Nothing changed.

[taikishi]

Just because nothing changed doesn't mean the interpretation isn't bad (it is) or that the ruling in the FAQ isn't bad (it is).

 

Miracle dice were compared to Destiny dice from the get go. Destiny dice can be fast rolled, but you can't spend more than one Miracle Die on a single AoF (outside of charging)? It would have made far more sense to allow a player to spend multiple MD on a single AoF. You're already limited to one AoF per phase and spending multiple dice on a hit roll, a wound roll, or saves would:

 

1. make Miracle Dice feel more impactful

2. force players to decide "do I want to spend them on this roll knowing I might need them for something else later in the game", making them a bit more tactical in their approach

3. make most of the MD generators, including cherubs, actually useful

4. would actually make some of the MD stratagems, especially Faith and Fury, good.

 

And quite honestly, can you sit here and tell me with a straight face that Faith and Fury is a good stratagem in light of this ruling? For that matter, can you sit here and tell me with a straight face that using a single MD on a hit roll, a wound roll, or a save - especially since you have to use it before rolling any other dice - is a good investment of that MD?

Edited February 1, 2020 by taikishi

[ThePenitentOne]

Absolutely with a straight face, I can tell you that it is worth it to substitute a single die on a to hit roll for the one meltagun in your unit against a high toughness, multi-wound target, just like I can tell you it's worth it to have the cherub to make sure that you can do it when you need to, especially since it doesn't need to be a 6 to be effective. And with that same straight face, I tell you it's worth it to have the simulacrum so that you can burn another MD to ensure you do enough damage to take the target out.

 

If you kit every squad with the trinity and a simulacrum, 1 MD per roll still means every meltagun hits and every melta hit does damage. It ain't a game breaker, but it ain't half bad, especially since MD used for advances, charges and morale are unaffected by the ruling.

 

I had hoped we would get to use it on speed dice, but I was totally prepared for this.

 

On the plus side, glad they fixed the Cannoness' Plasma Pistol problem.

[Lemondish]

Just because nothing changed doesn't mean the interpretation isn't bad (it is) or that the ruling in the FAQ isn't bad (it is).

 

Miracle dice were compared to Destiny dice from the get go. Destiny dice can be fast rolled, but you can't spend more than one Miracle Die on a single AoF (outside of charging)? It would have made far more sense to allow a player to spend multiple MD on a single AoF. You're already limited to one AoF per phase and spending multiple dice on a hit roll, a wound roll, or saves would:

 

1. make Miracle Dice feel more impactful

2. force players to decide "do I want to spend them on this roll knowing I might need them for something else later in the game", making them a bit more tactical in their approach

3. make most of the MD generators, including cherubs, actually useful

4. would actually make some of the MD stratagems, especially Faith and Fury, good.

 

And quite honestly, can you sit here and tell me with a straight face that Faith and Fury is a good stratagem in light of this ruling? For that matter, can you sit here and tell me with a straight face that using a single MD on a hit roll, a wound roll, or a save - especially since you have to use it before rolling any other dice - is a good investment of that MD?

Comparing miracle dice to destiny dice was a surface level comparison across two game systems. They are not the same, they never were the same, and any argument based on that assumption was straight faulty in the first place.

 

But it is what it is. There's clarity now for those that wanted to game the system and I think we should respect that.

[dracpanzer]

There's clarity now for those that wanted clarity in their faction rules and I think we should respect that.

Fixed that for you.

[bkde]

I think it needed to be clarified for damage rolls. Hit, wound, whatever are fine. But being able to sub in multiple miracle dice for damage rolls is insane.

 

I.e. 4 meltaguns shoot a target, 3 go thorough. How many wounds does it have left? 17? Okay, I'll spend two 6's, and a 5 from my pool instead of rolling the three dice, it's dead.

 

Having the rules clearly worded to only be able to only spend one miracle dice in this instance is much more enjoyable for both me and my opponent. Unfortunately due to how the rules are written, each hit, wound, damage being a seperate roll; by limiting the damage roll in this way it also limits spending miracle dice for the hit and wound.

 

While I don't think I wanted to "game the system" the ambiguity of "a player may swap in one or more miracle dice" (Under Acts of Faith in AS Codex) is what caused me to interpret the rules in this sense, forgetting about Fast Dice Rolling. The FAQ makes it clear this is not the case and I appreciate the clarity.

[taikishi]

Under a fast rolling/Destiny Dice version of Acts of Faith, your interpretation is correct on damage rolls.

 

Under the FAQ, it's correct as long as you spend 3 Acts of Faith to do so - which requires it to be your free Act of Faith, the unit having a Similacrum, and the unit being within 6" of the Triumph in your example.

 

Edit: Or some other way of being able to perform 3 acts of faith through one or multiple units.

Edited February 2, 2020 by taikishi

[EmperorGTank]

Had this in the other thread but thought I'd repost it here since it seems relevant.

 

Personally my biggest confusion is with the implication that a unit with a Simulacrum that performs an Act of Faith then makes it so you MUST assume you are performing an AoF using that simulacrum instead of the "free" act you are allowed.

 

Example: If I use an AoF in the shooting phase for a meltagun in a BSS with a Simulacrum but have no other Simulacrums in my army, that means I have used the AoF I'm allowed for this phase and I cannot use another despite the Simulacrum in that said unit allowing me to use one in addition to AoF I just performed? I can't choose another squad to use my "free" AoF with? I understand the solution of course but just trying to figure this out. I'm assuming the wording on the Simulacrum about allowing you to use an AoF even if one was already used that phase is the reason? Just trying to get some clarification.

 

This plays into that "order of operations" discussion too.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think the key words are 'even if' they imply that two situations exist, one where the Simulacrum is the first AoF that phase, one where it is the second, (or third etc.) Edited February 2, 2020 by Brother Adelard

[EmperorGTank]

Okay so that to me implies that you can use the Simulacrum AoF either before or after the "free" one, since you can use it "even if" the free one has been used or not.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah, that's my thinking.

[taikishi]

Absolutely with a straight face, I can tell you that it is worth it to substitute a single die on a to hit roll for the one meltagun in your unit against a high toughness, multi-wound target, just like I can tell you it's worth it to have the cherub to make sure that you can do it when you need to, especially since it doesn't need to be a 6 to be effective. And with that same straight face, I tell you it's worth it to have the simulacrum so that you can burn another MD to ensure you do enough damage to take the target out.

 

If you kit every squad with the trinity and a simulacrum, 1 MD per roll still means every meltagun hits and every melta hit does damage. It ain't a game breaker, but it ain't half bad, especially since MD used for advances, charges and morale are unaffected by the ruling.

 

I had hoped we would get to use it on speed dice, but I was totally prepared for this.

 

On the plus side, glad they fixed the Cannoness' Plasma Pistol problem.

 

If you kit every squad with the Trinity and for trying to pull off the Holy Trinity stratagem, you're hurting yourself and your squads.

 

Holy Trinity isn't worth the CP, especially when every weapon must fire at the same target. That means either you're using S4/5 weapons against high toughness to get the most out of your melta-weapons OR you're using your melta-weapons against things they already wound on a 2+ to give your bolters and flamers a minor buff.

 

Each squad should have a dedicated role in the army because of scarcity of resources (points, model count, weapon count, detachment slots, etc). In 2nd and 3rd edition I used to run Devastator squadss that were 1 lascannon, 1 missile launcher, 1 heavy bolter, and 1 plasma cannon because "versatile" only for those Devastator squads to accomplish nothing because there was no focus in what they could do. And 2nd edition allowed split fire in-part because of firing arcs due to facing.

 

As for spending a MD on a hit or a wound roll, you're spending it on the least impactful part of the process. Use it on a hit roll, you still have to roll to-wound (or spend 2CP for the same result). Use it on a wound roll, your opponent still gets their armor/invulnerable/FNP save, risking the die being wasted on a passed save. By using it on a damage roll you've already guaranteed success, now you're guaranteeing the degree of that success.

[asianavatar]

 

Okay so that to me implies that you can use the Simulacrum AoF either before or after the "free" one, since you can use it "even if" the free one has been used or not.

 

To many people that statement is not correct.

This same discussion happened in another thread and it got locked down. I don't want the same thing to happen here, but you can view both sides of the argument in the other thread. But in my opinion the issue is one of those RAW vs RAI questions that definitely needs a clarification from the design team.

[EmperorGTank]

Yea I agree with your interpretation that it definitely needs clarification. I wont press the issue with it I just do have a 1k game this weekend and I plan on putting an (almost) fully plastic force (still need my exorcists so still using the old ones) on the table so was hoping there was enough for one interpretation or the other, which from that other thread I see its hotly debated!

[ThePenitentOne]

 

Absolutely with a straight face, I can tell you that it is worth it to substitute a single die on a to hit roll for the one meltagun in your unit against a high toughness, multi-wound target, just like I can tell you it's worth it to have the cherub to make sure that you can do it when you need to, especially since it doesn't need to be a 6 to be effective. And with that same straight face, I tell you it's worth it to have the simulacrum so that you can burn another MD to ensure you do enough damage to take the target out.

 

If you kit every squad with the trinity and a simulacrum, 1 MD per roll still means every meltagun hits and every melta hit does damage. It ain't a game breaker, but it ain't half bad, especially since MD used for advances, charges and morale are unaffected by the ruling.

 

I had hoped we would get to use it on speed dice, but I was totally prepared for this.

 

On the plus side, glad they fixed the Cannoness' Plasma Pistol problem.

 

If you kit every squad with the Trinity and for trying to pull off the Holy Trinity stratagem, you're hurting yourself and your squads.

 

Holy Trinity isn't worth the CP, especially when every weapon must fire at the same target. That means either you're using S4/5 weapons against high toughness to get the most out of your melta-weapons OR you're using your melta-weapons against things they already wound on a 2+ to give your bolters and flamers a minor buff.

 

Each squad should have a dedicated role in the army because of scarcity of resources (points, model count, weapon count, detachment slots, etc). In 2nd and 3rd edition I used to run Devastator squadss that were 1 lascannon, 1 missile launcher, 1 heavy bolter, and 1 plasma cannon because "versatile" only for those Devastator squads to accomplish nothing because there was no focus in what they could do. And 2nd edition allowed split fire in-part because of firing arcs due to facing.

 

As for spending a MD on a hit or a wound roll, you're spending it on the least impactful part of the process. Use it on a hit roll, you still have to roll to-wound (or spend 2CP for the same result). Use it on a wound roll, your opponent still gets their armor/invulnerable/FNP save, risking the die being wasted on a passed save. By using it on a damage roll you've already guaranteed success, now you're guaranteeing the degree of that success.

 

 

Upon reconsideration, I should clarify: I think your assessment is correct for MSU squads; for them, there probably are way better builds. I play a mix of minSU and maxSU, so I sometimes forget how certain combos really aren't all that great. But I think the real issue is that you probably like to distribute other special and heavy profiles across BSS; it isn't a bad strategy, and a lot of people like it and build around the concept. I, however, prefer to concentrate all my non-Trinity special and heavy builds in dom squads and ret squads. Usually 3 dom squads with 4xSB, and a simulacrum; rets are monoweapon squads- usually two 4xMM + Simularcrum and 1x Cherub on one 4xHB + Simulacrum and 2x Cherub.

 

I don't so much think building troop squads for trinity hurts them; I think building troop squads for anything but trinity hurts your rets and doms, because putting heavy weapons anywhere but rets and storm bolters in anything but dom squads, you are minimizing your odds of using the best combos in the game.

 

I had started writing a huge post about this, then realized I should rewrite it as a tactica thread so that I don't bog this one down or make my repose seem TLDR and tangent and adversarial. So I should be able to post the actual tactica as it's own thread tomorrow, but it's too late to finish that now.

 

Cheers, and peace!