Make Terminators Great Again

[Aothaine]

Okay.. so what about this. Allow them to teleport up to 3" away from any enemy regardless of dampeners or any other rule stating you can't deepstrike that close. That would allow them to make a charge for sure usually and behave more like they do in the books where they teleport in and start bashing heads immediately.

 

Don't need to increase anything else. They are already really good. But allowing them to fulfill their role by teleporting directly into the enemies lines could work good.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Aothaine

[jaxom]

Basic Imperial and Chaos terminators at 22 points with a storm/combi bolter, some cheap off-hand melee options for both, and the ability to move and fire heavy weapons with no penalty. Keep the heavy weapons affordable: 22 points for an assault cannon and 32 points for a cyclone launcher are ridiculous. Keep any durability tricks for Deathguard, Thousand Sons, Salamanders, and Iron Hands.

[jaxom]

Okay.. so what about this. Allow them to teleport up to 3" away from any enemy regardless of dampeners or any other rule stating you can't deepstrike that close. That would allow them to make a charge for sure usually and behave more like they do in the books where they teleport in and start bashing heads immediately.

 

Don't need to increase anything else. They are already really good. But allowing them to fulfill their role by teleporting directly into the enemies lines could work good.

 

Yeah, that's not going to fly in this edition. TacTerminators can still do that with shooting and because of Bolter Discipline they throw a lot of lead down range. Plus Deathwing do get a stratagem to represent teleporting in and turning an area to mush; fire after teleporting and still fire during movement phase. I think it's partly an expectation issue. TacTermies are not a melee unit. They should drop down turn 2 with Tactical Doctrine in a place to support an assault unit. The TacTermies assault as a clean-up squad. Even then they specialize in dealing with what most marine assault units can't deal with swiftly: tanks and monstrous creatures.

Edited December 12, 2019 by jaxom

[Panzer]

 

 

As someone who mains death guard and has used T5 4++ 5+++ terminators, they are not worth the points. Maybe certain Legions can make use of them, I know the world eaters ones can get nasty now and probably have charge work arounds. But with a mostly melee specialty with the slowest movement in the game basically (4" and halve advance rolls for the DG ones), if you fail the charge after deepstrike, that's 200pts+ wasted. Things can walk away and kite them all day.

 

I would think an extra wound or -1ap incoming would be the best route. I'd buy a 'MTGA' hat haha.

Keep in mind that you also pay for those additional rules. People here are talking about getting the additional defense without increasing the points obviously.

Yeah but I don't think GW would do that. From what I've seen almost every terminator has gone down in points from the leaks I've seen on chapter approved except Blightlord terminators, they still look like 34pts without gear. What do you guys think a basic terminator should be points wise then if they are bumped to T5 4++ 5+++? Cause GW says 34pts without gear plus movement penalties.

 

 

If we go by that argumentation then let us just close this thread because nothing we are going to wishlist here is likely to end up happening anyway. It's not the first or even just second of this kind of Terminator thread anyway.

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

 

 

As someone who mains death guard and has used T5 4++ 5+++ terminators, they are not worth the points. Maybe certain Legions can make use of them, I know the world eaters ones can get nasty now and probably have charge work arounds. But with a mostly melee specialty with the slowest movement in the game basically (4" and halve advance rolls for the DG ones), if you fail the charge after deepstrike, that's 200pts+ wasted. Things can walk away and kite them all day.

 

I would think an extra wound or -1ap incoming would be the best route. I'd buy a 'MTGA' hat haha.

Keep in mind that you also pay for those additional rules. People here are talking about getting the additional defense without increasing the points obviously.

Yeah but I don't think GW would do that. From what I've seen almost every terminator has gone down in points from the leaks I've seen on chapter approved except Blightlord terminators, they still look like 34pts without gear. What do you guys think a basic terminator should be points wise then if they are bumped to T5 4++ 5+++? Cause GW says 34pts without gear plus movement penalties.

If we go by that argumentation then let us just close this thread because nothing we are going to wishlist here is likely to end up happening anyway. It's not the first or even just second of this kind of Terminator thread anyway.

I'm not arguing, all I said is what GW thinks they should be (and currently are) and then asked others what they think a T5 4++ 5+++ terminator should be. I'm with you guys, I think they should be less. I haven't used mine in awhile and it's a shame because they are beautiful models.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Terminator Armour

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5+ and a Damage Reduction of 1 to a minimum of 1. At the start of their Movement Phase and until the next one you may choose to add 1 to a type of dice rolled (eg : Charge Roll, To-Hit, Armour Save ... all the models in the unit must do the same and you cannot choose to improve an Invulnerable Save).

 

 

Advance Roll of 10''

Deep Strike Charge Roll of 9''

Power Fist hitting on 3+

Armour Save of 1

etc...

[Volt]

Play scenarios other than straight up minimal terrain "No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination" style deathmatches?

 

+++DISENGAGING SNARK PROTOCOLS+++

 

For real though, as has been pointed out, they excel at their in-fluff role, which is best (but not exclusively) suited to Zone Mortalis and the like. Unfortunately, for the other end of the spectrum (large open killing fields with room for super-units and artillery and whatnot) they suffer from a nasty case of "reality ensues"- that is, elite, expensive equipment that is extremely tough but isn't perhaps the most maneuverable being great in certain situations but ultimately outmatched in general warfare. If you look at IRL armoured vehicles of various eras (as power armour isn't yet in service), slow, heavy and few in number is often a death sentence in a lot of battlefields, as the French found out to their detriment when the nigh-on indestructible and formidably armed but clumsy, sluggish and expensive Char B1 Bis came unstuck against the individually inferior but much more numerous and more nimble German light panzers, even if they did put up a valiant fight.

 

Now I won't argue you COULD make Terminators more flexible/viable in all scenarios...but if you did they'd end up being monstrously overpowered in a lot of cases, and in their intended purpose (boarding actions/close quarter fighting in confined spaces) they'd be totally unbeatable. Which obviously is not ideal. As someone who prefers that rules reflect fluff rather than vice versa, even if it creates less optimal units in some cases (which is realistic after all; there's a reason the Fairey Battle was abandoned as a frontline fighter) I'm ultimately OK with them being really good at their intended role but not so good at roles outside their specialization. I understand the desire to make them more effective in other roles but the "fictional history simulationist" in me would argue it would be the equivalent of me demanding that M3 Lees in, say, Bolt Action be made into unstoppable death machines simply because tall tanks with a big gun in a sponson AND a turret are really, really cool. Or likewise, that the Malcador was made into an invincible one-tank army in spite of the fluff explicitly outlining it as an outdated (but cool looking) hunk of junk that is mostly seen in underfunded or renegade forces without access to better vehicles, simply because I have an unhealthy infatuation with that beautiful interwar-futuristic lummox.

 

So yeah. Terminators are IMO at least about as good as they realistically can be without breaking from their intended battlefield role, becoming a horrifically cheesy abomination, or worse, both. I think the answer is regrettably to put your general's cap on and only commit Terminators to the battlefield when the situation calls for them, in that boring way warfare tends to work. That, or get together with your opponent and come up with scenarios where Terminators will excel (or at least would make sense to be present) and tailor your lists around that so that you can both enjoy a cool game with Termies (and whatever other specialized/less auto-include units you want to have fun with).

 

That being said, I would like to see pre-Heresy "specialist" Terminators ported over to 40K for the sake of variety and fun. Slaaneshi Terminators with polearms (I've forgotten the name of the EC Terminators but you know what I mean) would rock.

Terminators weren't developed for ship boarding. They were developed for general battlefield supremacy, with the armor supposed to be downright invulnerable - cramped space fighting was just the initial role given while the Emperor planned to outfit everybody and their sister with Tartaros Armor. Custodes actually suffer from Terminator armor being crap too, it's just inferior to Jetbikes with no real boons because Custodes already have a 2+ save and T5 making their Terminators an expensive, slow, vulnerable unit. Meanwhile in the lore, Custodes Terminator Armor can withstand Macrocannons because of its aurumite armor.

 

Also once overhaul I've tried with terminators is changing their invul saves to FNP's. Indomitus and Tartaros have 5++'s, Cataphractii has a 4++. Storm Shields on Terminators could be changed to give them a 3+++ as well, and only for terminators.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Volt

[Ishagu]

Hard to change Terminators because it has an impact across multiple books. For example DG Terminators are great as they are. If we grant Termies a 3rd wound, then those same DG Termies might suddenly be too powerful.

 

This is one of the massive downsides of the old range. Because wargear, items and armour are replicated across dozens of units and multiple books, any change to one has a ripple effect to everything else that is hard to account for. The greatest design choice in Primaris was granting each unit unique wargear and rules that aren't replicated in other places. If Hellblasters are too weak, as an example, the points of their weaposn can be adjusted and it doesn't affect a single other unit.

 

I think Aggressors and Centurions are preferable to Terminators in loyalist armies rules wise. That being said, Termies are in a better spot than ever. They can work in armies like RG and WS.

[Volt]

Hard to change Terminators because it has an impact across multiple books. For example DG Terminators are great as they are. If we grant Termies a 3rd wound, then those same DG Termies might suddenly be too powerful.

 

This is one of the massive downsides of the old range. Because wargear, items and armour are replicated across dozens of units and multiple books, any change to one has a ripple effect to everything else that is hard to account for. The greatest design choice in Primaris was granting each unit unique wargear and rules that aren't replicated in other places. If Hellblasters are too weak, as an example, the points of their weaposn can be adjusted and it doesn't affect a single other unit.

 

I think Aggressors and Centurions are preferable to Terminators in loyalist armies rules wise. That being said, Termies are in a better spot than ever. They can work in armies like RG and WS.

You still haven't explained why you actually need to change the stats of different units in other books that are working arlight (although Death Guard aren't working alright either and are only usable thanks to stratagems).

[Ishagu]

Because they are the same unit. Same wargear.

 

Notice how bikes for Chaos and bikes for loyalists have the same effect on stats and movement. The extra faction rules are layered on top but the "Terminator Armour" carries a set of rules that repeat across all the factions. BA, DA, SM, SW, Chaos etc Terminators are all the same core rules. Change one, change them all. Same applies to jump packs, plasma guns, las cannons, etc, etc, etc

Edited December 12, 2019 by Ishagu

[Dark Shepherd]

IMO theres a general problem with deepstriking being an inch too far away

 

To reflect their fancy tech how about if Terminators could deepstrike 9 or 6 instead but you roll a d6 and each roll of 1 means one died in teleportation shenanigans?

 

Theyve admitted it but they were overly concerned by the power of autohits on random shot weapons so didnt want any deepstriking within flamer range

[Ishagu]

Actually a "Precision Deepstrike" strat that allows them to drop in 4+D3 inches away from enemy units would be pretty cool.

[Volt]

Because they are the same unit. Same wargear.

 

Notice how bikes for Chaos and bikes for loyalists have the same effect on stats and movement. The extra faction rules are layered on top but the "Terminator Armour" carries a set of rules that repeat across all the factions. BA, DA, SM, SW, Chaos etc Terminators are all the same core rules. Change one, change them all. Same applies to jump packs, plasma guns, las cannons, etc, etc, etc

Or you just don't. There is no need for universal changes of the same units across codices. They are in different books after all.

[Ishagu]

 

 

Because they are the same unit. Same wargear.

 

Notice how bikes for Chaos and bikes for loyalists have the same effect on stats and movement. The extra faction rules are layered on top but the "Terminator Armour" carries a set of rules that repeat across all the factions. BA, DA, SM, SW, Chaos etc Terminators are all the same core rules. Change one, change them all. Same applies to jump packs, plasma guns, las cannons, etc, etc, etc

Or you just don't. There is no need for universal changes of the same units across codices. They are in different books after all.

It doesn't matter. This is how GW has done it for decades, and how they are still doing it now.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Actually a "Precision Deepstrike" strat that allows them to drop in 4+D3 inches away from enemy units would be pretty cool.

 

Or a "use this stratagem after deploying a Deep Striking TERMINATOR unit, that unit immediately consolidate".

[jaxom]

The 9" bubble and possibility of a failed charge are a staple of the edition. A more likely version would be either getting +1" (maybe +2") to charge rolls after deep striking or getting to re-roll charge dice after deep striking.

[Chaplain Elijah]

The 9" bubble and possibility of a failed charge are a staple of the edition. A more likely version would be either getting +1" (maybe +2") to charge rolls after deep striking or getting to re-roll charge dice after deep striking.

 

 

Blood and Dark Angels already have these gimmicks, doesn't make Terminator lists viable.

[jaxom]

Exactly, they don’t have anything as reliable as an effective 6” deep strike range. There’s no way such a rule would be allowed for an Astartes unit in eighth edition. Maybe I don’t understand the point of the thread anymore. And what I does “viable” mean in this context, charging on the same turn as deploying? An entire army of terminators? Being worth taking compared to other elite options? Being worth taking compared a melee unit? Being worth taking compared to a dIfferent deepstriking unit?

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

 

Because they are the same unit. Same wargear.

 

Notice how bikes for Chaos and bikes for loyalists have the same effect on stats and movement. The extra faction rules are layered on top but the "Terminator Armour" carries a set of rules that repeat across all the factions. BA, DA, SM, SW, Chaos etc Terminators are all the same core rules. Change one, change them all. Same applies to jump packs, plasma guns, las cannons, etc, etc, etc

Or you just don't. There is no need for universal changes of the same units across codices. They are in different books after all.

It doesn't matter. This is how GW has done it for decades, and how they are still doing it now.

DG Blightlords are bad for the points. There's much better options, they only work with psychic support and a strat, and if they miss the charge they are garbage. And that's not how GW does it. There's plenty of the same stuff but costed different. DG Daemon prince's are more expensive than Daemons codex nurgle Daemon Prince after CA. One has Hateful assault the other has daemonic Loci. Same unit different costs. Some loyalist wargear is cheaper too, like their lightning claws (until CA). Until CA drops their tactical marines are cheaper too. It depends on what GW wants to sell that quarter.

[Panzer]

To be fair, the reason why Terminators aren't really a thing in BA lists is mostly because we have flying Terminators (Sanguinary Guard are T4 W2 Sv2+ and can take fists as well) and have a bunch of Stratagems that work on JP units. Not because Terminators with a +1 or +2 to charges are bad.

 

Although to be even more fair, a Terminator with Powerfist and Stormbolter still costs 6ppm more than a Sanguinary Guard with Powerfist and Angelus boltgun (12" Assault 2 S4 AP-1 D1) so there's definitely still some room for points drops with Terminators. The 5++ on a Sv2+ model is definitely no 4ppm worth (Stormbolters cost 2ppm and Angelus boltguns are free so the actual difference would be only 4ppm), especially when considering that the Sanguinary Guard have lots more mobility thanks to their Jump Packs.

Edited December 12, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Captain_Krash]

GK terminators are actually really viable now with the point drops full army even as they are troops.

 

Krash

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

 

Because they are the same unit. Same wargear.

 

Notice how bikes for Chaos and bikes for loyalists have the same effect on stats and movement. The extra faction rules are layered on top but the "Terminator Armour" carries a set of rules that repeat across all the factions. BA, DA, SM, SW, Chaos etc Terminators are all the same core rules. Change one, change them all. Same applies to jump packs, plasma guns, las cannons, etc, etc, etc

Or you just don't. There is no need for universal changes of the same units across codices. They are in different books after all.

It doesn't matter. This is how GW has done it for decades, and how they are still doing it now.

DG Blightlords are bad for the points. There's much better options, they only work with psychic support and a strat, and if they miss the charge they are garbage. And that's not how GW does it. There's plenty of the same stuff but costed different. DG Daemon prince's are more expensive than Daemons codex nurgle Daemon Prince after CA. One has Hateful assault the other has daemonic Loci. Same unit different costs. Some loyalist wargear is cheaper too, like their lightning claws (until CA). Until CA drops their tactical marines are cheaper too. It depends on what GW wants to sell that quarter.

DG blightlords are great. You don't know how to use them, perhaps?

They could drop a bit, but they are solid and do a job. Many great players have used them at high levels of play.

[Special Officer Doofy]

DG blightlords are great. You don't know how to use them, perhaps?

They could drop a bit, but they are solid and do a job. Many great players have used them at high levels of play.

I did use them, but they need blades and Votlw to make their points back. And rolling a 9" charge with a command reroll is still Vegas odds. If your inferring I have inferior dice rolling skills perhaps you're correct? How many tournaments have you played with your Blightlord terminators? They could definitely drop a bit.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Putrid Choir

[Ishagu]

I've not used them, but have faced them multiple times at tournaments and my friends who have won multiple events around the UK rate them highly. They are a staple in many competitive Nurgle lists and have also been used by prominent players in the ITC.

 

Not that I care about the ITC as an indicator of anything.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I've not used them, but have faced them multiple times at tournaments and my friends who have won multiple events around the UK rate them highly. They are a staple in many competitive Nurgle lists and have also been used by prominent players in the ITC.

 

Not that I care about the ITC as an indicator of anything.

I could say the same but for the opposite (but in the U.S.). I know Hooson had a list with 10 with a chaos knight and other stuff, if memory serves me correct it never did better then his 10 pbc list (which was stupid but awesome at the same time). And I haven't seen any in a list that placed higher than a loyalist marine player since the codex and supplements dropped. But I guess since it's a DG only unit a point drop could fix it, or see what love / if any they get in PA, which again will be in the form of a strat that uses a limited resource on top of their point cost to function efficiently, and unless overpowered puts them in the same limited boat.