Make Terminators Great Again

[Chaplain Elijah]

Let's go back to what are the Terminator Armor key feature : imperveous to small arms and even anti-tank weapons have a hard time cracking it open. So...

 

 

Terminator Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5+.

Any Damage taken is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1. If the attack was not made with a Heavy Weapon, add +1 to your Saving throw.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Elijah

[Panzer]

Let's go back to what are the Terminator Armor key feature : imperveous to small arms and even anti-tank weapons have a hard time cracking it open. So...

 

 

Terminator Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5+.

Any Damage taken is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1. If the attack was not made with a Heavy Weapon, add +1 to your Saving throw.

 

Invul of 5+ doesn't help against most anti-tank weapons though, since most are AP-3 so you'd have your 5+ armour save anyway.

Also the second rule would double punish some weapons like Plasma, Melta, Fusion Blaster, Missile Pods, etc.

[jaxom]

 

 Invul of 5+ doesn't help against most anti-tank weapons though, since most are AP-3 so you'd have your 5+ armour save anyway.

 

Maybe it's time to abandon it now that there's a sliding save system again?

 

If one wants really hard core terminators then here's another option:

 

 

 

Re-roll results of 1. In addition, gain +1 to save rolls against weapons with strength 7 or lower.

 

It would make them nigh-invulnerable to any small arms, dedicated anti-infantry weapons (heavy bolters, assault cannons, and their xenos equivalents), and anti-light vehicle weapons (autocannons and their xenos equivalents). Plasma and it's equivalents become more survivable (3+ save vs Krak Grenade, 4+ save vs normal plasma, 5+ save vs plasma incinerators, etc). They'd still be vulnerable to dedicated anti-tank weapons (krak missiles, lascannons, meltas, overcharged plasma, etc) while having a 5+ save in most cases (4+ vs krak missiles, battle cannons, etc) and 6+ against meltas and plasma incinerators (or their xenos equivalents). As an aside, personally, I don't mind overcharged plasma killing a terminator in one shot because that's not a huge paradigm shift from previous editions. The rule would similarly increase survivability in melee.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Let's go back to what are the Terminator Armor key feature : imperveous to small arms and even anti-tank weapons have a hard time cracking it open. So...

 

 

Terminator Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5+.

Any Damage taken is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1. If the attack was not made with a Heavy Weapon, add +1 to your Saving throw.

The thread is about making them great again and you stick with craptastic 5++.

[Beta galactosidase]

admitedly i've not read all 6 pages of this topic. (its a lot to read and its far to late/early at night)

 

but IMO the solution to terminators is simple. make the save 3+ on 2D6 (back to 2nd edition) might also need to increase there points a bit to accommodate this but terminators should be walking tanks that require massive amounts of fire to get kill and this would do it.

Yeah it is pretty common to combine 1: not reading the thread with 2: mentioning the 2d6 save from second edition.

[jaxom]

Some number crunching later, a 2+ save re-rolling failed saves gives odds about half-way between 3+ on 2D6 and 2+ re-rolling ones (other than the base save which is 97% for all three of those options).

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

Let's go back to what are the Terminator Armor key feature : imperveous to small arms and even anti-tank weapons have a hard time cracking it open. So...

 

 

Terminator Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5+.

Any Damage taken is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1. If the attack was not made with a Heavy Weapon, add +1 to your Saving throw.

 

Invul of 5+ doesn't help against most anti-tank weapons though, since most are AP-3 so you'd have your 5+ armour save anyway.

Also the second rule would double punish some weapons like Plasma, Melta, Fusion Blaster, Missile Pods, etc.

 

 

 

Tartaros Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5+.

If the attack was not made with a Heavy Weapon, any Damage taken is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1.

 

Terminator Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5+.

If the attack was not made with a Heavy Weapon, any Damage taken is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1.

When being targeted by an Attack, you may apply one of the following modifier : -1 to Wound or +1 to Saving Throw.

 

Cataphractii Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5+.

If the attack was not made with a Heavy Weapon, any Damage taken is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1.

When being targeted by an Attack, you may apply the following modifier : -1 to Wound and +1 to Saving Throw.

 

 

5++ for all (unless storm shield or character).

[Panzer]

It appears you don't quite understand that the 5++ is simply useless in most situations. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Those all make terminators even worse. Jebus

[Chaplain Elijah]

It appears you don't quite understand that the 5++ is simply useless in most situations. 

 

I did understood the point.

If the problem of Terminators was solely based on 2+/5++ being redundant, SS Termies would be played... are they ?

 

 

 

Those all make terminators even worse. Jebus

 

Don't stop your trolling please, it bumps the thread.

[Panzer]

 

It appears you don't quite understand that the 5++ is simply useless in most situations. 

 

I did understood the point.

If the problem of Terminators was solely based on 2+/5++ being redundant, SS Termies would be played... are they ?

 

 

 

I never claimed it's the only problem, however why keep something that's bad?

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

 

It appears you don't quite understand that the 5++ is simply useless in most situations. 

 

I did understood the point.

If the problem of Terminators was solely based on 2+/5++ being redundant, SS Termies would be played... are they ?

 

 

 

I never claimed it's the only problem, however why keep something that's bad?

 

 

Because there's no other option ? But you're free to suggest a work around, that's the point of the thread after all.

[jaxom]

Terminator Armor: 2+ armor save, re-roll failed saves (design intent includes storm shields, rosaries, and iron halos).

 

Tartarus Terminator Armour: 2+ armour save, re-roll save rolls of one (ditto design intent from above).

 

Cataphractii Terminator Armour: As Terminator Armour, with the addition of a native 4+ invulnerable save.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

It appears you don't quite understand that the 5++ is simply useless in most situations. 

 

I did understood the point.

If the problem of Terminators was solely based on 2+/5++ being redundant, SS Termies would be played... are they ?

 

 

 

I never claimed it's the only problem, however why keep something that's bad?

 

 

Because there's no other option ? But you're free to suggest a work around, that's the point of the thread after all.

 

 

What's stopping you from buffing it to a 4++ and 3++ in case of Cataphractii?

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

 

 

 

It appears you don't quite understand that the 5++ is simply useless in most situations. 

 

I did understood the point.

If the problem of Terminators was solely based on 2+/5++ being redundant, SS Termies would be played... are they ?

 

 

 

I never claimed it's the only problem, however why keep something that's bad?

 

 

Because there's no other option ? But you're free to suggest a work around, that's the point of the thread after all.

 

 

What's stopping you from buffing it to a 4++ and 3++ in case of Cataphractii?

 

 

Because we're back at my point "if a better Invulnerable is what they need what about SS not being played".

[Interrogator Stobz]

SS come with extra cost and reduced options for an already overpriced and underwhelming unit.

 

No option presented here is perfect, but a better Invulnerable is the easiest, following that rerolls, following that the other options.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Interrogator Stobz

[jaxom]

Because losing storm- or Combi-Bolters is a huge impact on terminator power. A guaranteed four shots per model is nothing to sneeze at. Thunder hammers are also not point efficient for most Astarte subfactions for what you get out of them. Chainfists are a better choice for what you get. An increase of 4++ to 3++ (in the case of Cataphractii or TH&SS Assault Terminators) doesn’t balance out those other factors.

 

EDIT: I was writing this when the last post went, similar gist.

Edited December 28, 2019 by jaxom

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

 

It appears you don't quite understand that the 5++ is simply useless in most situations. 

 

I did understood the point.

If the problem of Terminators was solely based on 2+/5++ being redundant, SS Termies would be played... are they ?

 

 

 

I never claimed it's the only problem, however why keep something that's bad?

 

 

Because there's no other option ? But you're free to suggest a work around, that's the point of the thread after all.

 

 

What's stopping you from buffing it to a 4++ and 3++ in case of Cataphractii?

 

 

Because we're back at my point "if a better Invulnerable is what they need what about SS not being played".

 

 

And we are back to I NEVER SAID IT'S THEIR ONLY PROBLEM. It not being the only problem is absolutely no reason to leave it as it is.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Anyway, ok, let's do it and try to rework the Crux rule into something else...

 

Crux Terminatus

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5+.

When being targeted by an attack, the Strength and AP values are reduced by X.

 

X = 1/2/3 for Tartaros/Regular/Cataph.

[GrinNfool]

Didn't read through all 7 pages, as I think this topic has been discussed in the past too.  I'll stick to my thoughts on terms, they don't need much they are right on the threshold of being fine.  Saw some posts asking for 2-3 major improvements, and to me that would just make them too powerful.  With marines being as powerful a dex as they are currently I would be even more wary of possibly over buffing them.  16.5 points per wound with a 2+ save  12 powerfist attacks first round, and 20 s4 shots isn't that far from useable.  Intercessors compare at 8.5 points per wound with a 3+ and 10 s4 ap-1 shots, and far worse melee.  I think either making them 1+ save OR 3 wounds will achieve the desired result, 3 wounds turning that into 11 points per wound.  OR 1+ essentially being ignore the first point of ap, in cover they would require ap-3 to even be at a 3+ save.  The only other thing they could probably use is letting them ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, just to make that a more reasonable option for them,

[Interrogator Stobz]

The thing I don't like about reducing the stats of incoming fire is the negative impact on the fun had by the opponent; they pay points for their weapons and want them to work as intended, I know I have always disliked rules that lower my stats, old Dante for example, and I'm in the hobby for fun, both mine and my opponents.

I appreciate that the net result could be the same as just making the saves better, but to me it's kind of a mind space thing.

 

It's also not as simple as a straightforward better Inv. or a reroll. KISS is king in my books, this game is complicated enough for us casual players.

An extra wound is also a great simple option  :P

[jaxom]

Earlier in the thread I compared an Intercessor to a Chaos Terminator with Combi-Bolter and Chain Axe. The latter is well pointed compared to the increased offense and defense versus the former. The issue, from my perspective, of current terminators is that powerfists (and their variants) are costed against their utility from previous editions while their actual utility has plummeted (I’m thinking versus vehicles specifically). If they’re going to cost the same on Terminators as on characters then Terminators who have no choice but to take them need a little boost.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Offensive CC improvement options are definitely fixing the points and/or -1 to hit on Fists.

Offensive shooting improvements should be removing the -1 to hit in heavy weapons. That's always been a TDA thing, the strength and stability to move and shoot heavies.

[Panzer]

Didn't read through all 7 pages, as I think this topic has been discussed in the past too.  I'll stick to my thoughts on terms, they don't need much they are right on the threshold of being fine.  Saw some posts asking for 2-3 major improvements, and to me that would just make them too powerful.  With marines being as powerful a dex as they are currently I would be even more wary of possibly over buffing them.  16.5 points per wound with a 2+ save  12 powerfist attacks first round, and 20 s4 shots isn't that far from useable.  Intercessors compare at 8.5 points per wound with a 3+ and 10 s4 ap-1 shots, and far worse melee.  I think either making them 1+ save OR 3 wounds will achieve the desired result, 3 wounds turning that into 11 points per wound.  OR 1+ essentially being ignore the first point of ap, in cover they would require ap-3 to even be at a 3+ save.  The only other thing they could probably use is letting them ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, just to make that a more reasonable option for them,

 

I really can't understand that view to be honest. Blood Angels have Sanguinary Guard which cost 3ppm less but have Jump Packs. The 5++ is definitely not worth the 3ppm and lack of Jump Pack. And it's not like Sanguinary Guard break the game even with their +1 to wound, +1 to charge rolls and really good synergy via Stratagems and such in a Blood Angels army.

I'd say Terminators as a base are about 5ppm too expensive by comparison. At least. Probably more considering for 5ppm less I'd still take Sanguinary Guard over Terminators even without any possible Stratagem support.

[jaxom]

<p>

 

Top is how many points it would take a Terminator or Sanguinary Guard with that equipment to kill 17 MEQ, 51 GEQ, 12 PEQ, and 1 KEQ (a Knight Warde is 406 points to the 204 of the other groups).

 

The bottom is the same except with all the bonuses of charging with Assault Doctrine active.

 

 

First, let me note that shooting with the Terminators was, unsurprisingly, better than the Sanguinary Guard. However, neither are efficient shooting platforms at their point costs. So, don't let shooting impact your judgement of lightning claws.

 

Second, the GEQ data is somewhat deceptive. For example, 551 points of Terminators to wipe out 204 points Guardsman can be proportioned to a single squad of 5 LC Terminators at 175 killing two and a half squads of ten Guardsman in one charge.

 

TL;DR:

• Sanguinary Guard with Encarmine Axes are awesome all-a-rounders and best against KEQs for their points.
• Lightning Claw Terminators are the best at taking down infantry in general for their points.
• Terminators with Chainfists are the best against PEQs (SG w/EA slightly better at it in combat, but not enough to make up for the difference in the shooting phase) for their points.

Mind you this does not take into account the utility of a jump pack, Deathmasks, etc.

Edited December 28, 2019 by jaxom