Make Terminators Great Again

[Ishagu]

So your metric for a good unit is that it has to feature in a tournament winning army?

[Special Officer Doofy]

No, and if it came across as that I miss spoke. But you made it seem like because people you know who played in tournaments "think highly" of them they are good, and that people have used them in ITC, then immediately contradicted yourself and said you don't care about ITC as an indicator.

 

Raven Guard are amazing at Slay the Warlord. Mortarion is awesome in a TS soup list with Magnus. Those are situations. Around where I play Raven Guard do worse than Salamanders, Iron Hands (who doesn't), Iron Fists and usually Ultramarines. Morty in a pure DG list sucks, and I still bring him because he looks so purty while getting shot off the table T1 and T2.

 

Since 8th I've almost exclusively played DG, I still got my Tau and Tyranids though. I have every DG exclusive unit and played them all. My brother's best friend who got me back into Wh40k at the start of 8th had a large DG collection which he loaned me until I replaced it all with my own. Others in my group have DG. Blight lords are just okay. With enough support and good rolls they are awesome. But that's alot of points, CP, and a spell that needs to go off and a charge that needs to go off in order to function efficiently. I'm just saying after most the other termies got point drops, looking at other similar units like aggressors with just traits, doctrines and second traits for less points, and lots of play time with them, they could use a points drop. Yeah should still be more than a normal terminator, but not 50% more for +1T and 5+++.

 

Those new WE ones are looking pretty good, specially when CA drops. How many of you have had a chance to play with them?

[Ishagu]

I'm saying that I have seen this unit (DG Blightlords) perform well personally at high levels of play against myself and others - it's a finesse unit that requires good play, positioning and patience. It has also done a decent job at ITC events that IMO, are a bad indicator of anything in the game because of the missions that encourage boring spam lists.

 

Going back to topic, any changes to core terminators would impact all of them across every codex, and might have undesirable consequences. A point adjustments and a new strat or two will be the way to bolster Termies.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Going back to topic, any changes to core terminators would impact all of them across every codex, and might have undesirable consequences. A point adjustments and a new strat or two will be the way to bolster Termies.

You keep saying this. Unless you're one of GW's rules writers, this assertion is baseless. It's not a fact, just an opinion.

[Ishagu]

Hey, perhaps GW will throw out every convention they've followed for 20 years for just this unit.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Cough *Primaris* Cough

[Ishagu]

Cough *Primaris* Cough

New units aren't breaking conventions lol, neither is a new sub faction.

[Captain Idaho]

Add a wound to every Terminator across the board, bar those that already have 3 wounds, then boom done.

 

Hell I'd even let Blightlords have 4 wounds but there probably has to be a line when a Lascannon is unlikely to hurt the unit ;)

 

Things don't have to be complicated...

[Special Officer Doofy]

Hey, perhaps GW will throw out every convention they've followed for 20 years for just this unit.

I already pointed out examples of same units but with differences from different codexes, and same weapons with different costs. Why not terminators? There already has been blanket rules like bolter discipline and hateful/shock assault. The sky didn't fall. Models sold.

 

Marines have traditionally been tacticals/scouts for troops, with special weapons. Intercessors get no special weapons. Instead of specialized elite squads they have different troops now that can essentially deepstrike (concealed deployment) T1. New transports can't transport old stuff and old transports can't transport new stuff. Bike characters that have been available in the codex for years have been retired. Terminators are barely better then Intercessors, excluding point costs. GW is totally willing to throw out 20 years of tradition for $$$...

Edited December 12, 2019 by Putrid Choir

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m having good success with Cataprachti terminators. I would say depending on your faction assault Cents have made terminators redundant.

[Ishagu]

 

Hey, perhaps GW will throw out every convention they've followed for 20 years for just this unit.

I already pointed out examples of same units but with differences from different codexes, and same weapons with different costs. Why not terminators? There already has been blanket rules like bolter discipline and hateful/shock assault. The sky didn't fall. Models sold.

 

Marines have traditionally been tacticals/scouts for troops, with special weapons. Intercessors get no special weapons. Instead of specialized elite squads they have different troops now that can essentially deepstrike (concealed deployment) T1. New transports can't transport old stuff and old transports can't transport new stuff. Bike characters that have been available in the codex for years have been retired. Terminators are barely better then Intercessors, excluding point costs. GW is totally willing to throw out 20 years of tradition for $$$...

The extras and special rules are layered in top of core rules. This is nothing new.

 

Also I don't believe Terminators should have 3 wounds. That is reserves for Gravis Astartes currently, or other super, super elite infantry in the Astartes range like the Honour Guard that are rare, and beyond even 1st company Veterans. Point drop would be good, however.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Ishagu

[Special Officer Doofy]

The extras and special rules are layered in top of core rules. This is nothing new.

 

Also I don't believe Terminators should have 3 wounds. That is reserves for Gravis Astartes currently, or other super, super elite infantry in the Astartes range like the Honour Guard that are rare, and beyond even 1st company Veterans. Point drop would be good, however.

And how would an extra wound, half damage, reduce by 1 to a minimum of one, T5, 5+++, -1ap from incoming damage, or any of the other stuff our fine fraters (and moderati) suggested not be the same idea as "extra or special rules layered in top of core rules"?

 

You've argued "any changes to core terminators would impact all of them across every codex, and might have undesirable consequences" and shock assault and bolter discipline proves that wrong. Terminators are way more melee focused then tacticals/Intercessors and got more out of assault, it didn't break the game. Bolter discipline affects them better then the basic troops as well and works full time. Still not game breaking.

 

You've argued "but the "Terminator Armour" carries a set of rules that repeat across all the factions. BA, DA, SM, SW, Chaos etc Terminators are all the same core rules. Change one, change them all. Same applies to jump packs, plasma guns, las cannons, etc, etc, etc" and the fact chaos marine stuff, literally the exact same things like lightning claws, are costed different then loyalist marines, and Daemon prince's are costed and ruled different across chaos daemons, chaos space marines, death guard and thousand sons proves otherwise. All are different but same stat lines with different set of "rules".

 

You've argued GW isn't willing to change 20 years of convention for a unit, and they did it with Primaris marines just to get a copyright on the name and get people to buy new models.

 

Terminators could easily be fixed without strats or price drops. We get it. You love your Primaris and their "super, super elite" Gravis that is trying to replace terminators. Not everyone does. Let them wishlist and speculate in peace. Remember when those super, super Elites WERE terminators? But GW never changed for a unit. Argh the conundrum!

Edited December 12, 2019 by Putrid Choir

[Aothaine]

Earlier in this thread I made a typo and stated that Prot was using Cataphractii with success. Now I'm not sure if Prot uses them or not but I made a mistake in using Prot's name when I meant Black Blow Fly. My apologies.

 

Black Blow Fly has also created a tactica for the Cataphractii. If anyone has any questions please check it out here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/360205-cataprachii-terminator-tactica/

 

Black Blow Fly has had very good results with the Cataphractii and has pretty much sold me on their value in some armies. As for the other terminator types I'm still looking into where they fit. But there is a lot of potential for TH/SS Assault Terminators in Iron Hands, Salamanders, White Scars and Raven Guard.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Terminator Armor

The model has an Invulnerable Save of 5+.

When rolling a Armor or Invulnerable Save you may reroll any roll of 1.

 

 

Vanilla Save : Wounds taken for 1 Hit

2+ : 0.17

3+ : 0.33

4+ : 0.50

5+ : 0.67

 

Reroll '1' Save : Wounds taken for 1 Hit

2+ : 0.03

3+ : 0.23

4+ : 0.41

5+ : 0.61

[Closet Skeleton]

 

DG blightlords are great. You don't know how to use them, perhaps?

They could drop a bit, but they are solid and do a job. Many great players have used them at high levels of play.

I did use them, but they need blades and Votlw to make their points back. And rolling a 9" charge with a command reroll is still Vegas odds. If your inferring I have inferior dice rolling skills perhaps you're correct? How many tournaments have you played with your Blightlord terminators? They could definitely drop a bit.

 

 

I've played three-four but it was years ago now. My old 2k list is like 1810 or something now.

 

'Making their points back' isn't how winning games works. Blight Lords are for taking damage not dealing it. 207 points is pretty cheap for the punishment they can take. Of course you can't win very often if you rely lucky charges but that's just one of the many things BL can do.

 

Death Guard aren't winning any top table games but they never really did and that's not Blight Lords as a unit's fault.

 

Death Guard psychic support boosts all Death Guard units, so it really doesn't matter that any one unit needs spells to really hit hard.

[jaxom]

 

'Making their points back' isn't how winning games works. Blight Lords are for taking damage not dealing it. 207 points is pretty cheap for the punishment they can take. Of course you can't win very often if you rely lucky charges but that's just one of the many things BL can do.

 

This is why I kept my comparison to Intercessor vs Basic Chaos Terminator. They both have an all-around battle role, just with slightly different equipment, so it's a more direct comparison. If loyalists had a chainaxe equivalent then I'd take Terminators regularly. If they stay outside of 12" (15" if fighting Intercessors) and lob shots as long as possible and then aim to get into melee with something that is hardier than a GEQ profile then they (on paper) outperform Intercessors in many metrics.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Chaos terminators have access to combis and chainaxes... what more could you want ?!

[jaxom]

The warmth of fidelity rather than the stench of treachery? 

[Grimdark_Garage]

I'm beginning to realise that GW have moved on from Terminators being anything more than fluffy in true 40k.

 

In a skirmish type game they're immense as they should be. In open war they'll likely kill a high priority target... As they should.....If they get a charge off.

 

So maybe that's what they need, a buff to their deepstrike ability. Say, a D6 move when they arrive.

If you want a reason: when a squad of terminators is deployed into battle, they have a specific briefing and targets as such, they only deploy via teleport at the most opportune moment and are posed to strike the moment they arrive.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They are actually pretty good if you need deep strike. GW is not going to make them T8 with 2++ and 3+++ .

[Volt]

I'm beginning to realise that GW have moved on from Terminators being anything more than fluffy in true 40k.

 

In a skirmish type game they're immense as they should be. In open war they'll likely kill a high priority target... As they should.....If they get a charge off.

 

So maybe that's what they need, a buff to their deepstrike ability. Say, a D6 move when they arrive.

If you want a reason: when a squad of terminators is deployed into battle, they have a specific briefing and targets as such, they only deploy via teleport at the most opportune moment and are posed to strike the moment they arrive.

Except their actual damage in melee is rather naff unless you're using something special like Deathwing Knights. Having to pay a lot of points to get chainfists or power fists hitting on 4's is terrible. In order to make the squad actually hit hard you need to add in a Librarian or Captain to make the hits actually land in a way that matters. And even then they're just downright unreliable compared to simply spamming more dreadnoughts with lascannons for anti-tank work, or now just marching up a glob of intercessors to mow down enemy troops while advancing to boot. Actually getting into melee is just part of the problem, along with an overhaul anemic firepower and idiotic BS 4+ on any heavy weapons despite them formerly being relentless. Terminators shouldn't suffer BS or WS reductions for any heavy weapons, and they should at minimum have 1+ armor saves. Otherwise everybody is just better off fielding smash captains with nonsense rules and vanguard vets to deal punishing blows to enemy armor for cheap.

 

(Plus unlike a terminator squad, a smash captain can actually reliable kill an Imperial knight in one charge)

[Grimdark_Garage]

Good point actually. I am a DA player so I'm over here thinking about my Knights.

 

So they ignore the -1 to hit in combat and from moving and firing heavy weapons.

[Elzender]

I was thinking that giving them a rule to ignore the WS penalty for power fists might give them some more oomph on close combat? After all, their armour is already designed for them to use power fists as standard, so I guess it has the adequate servos to use it effectively in comparison to power armour. Maybe limit it just to powerfists and exclude chainfists as they are even more specialised and unwieldy weapons. Don't know how I would justify thunder hammers keeping the penalty, though.

[Beta galactosidase]

Look if you play a game against me and ask to houserule that terminators ignore the powefist penalty, you can have it, but only if we just drop the -1 from all imperial power fists. I don’t want exceptions to rules that are already exceptions. I won’t benefit because I’d probably bring xenos. I just don’t want multiple layers of rules that contradict each other.

 

 

an extra wound, half damage, reduce by 1 to a minimum of one, T5, 5+++, -1ap from incoming damage, or any of the other stuff our fine fraters (and moderati) suggested

The most important thing to me is that it be a normal part of the rules, and not a special rule. There’d just be for example a 1+ on the profile, a 0+ on the Necron Monolith, maybe some of the other heavy units out there, just an every day occurrence, the only explanation required is the one in the rule book. Or just +1 to wounds or T, something needing no explanation.

 

People talk about what GW is likely to do. We know what they’re likely to do, it’s to release a new box with a new special rule because it pops, it’s something to hype on the WH community site. It’s not for the purpose of having a smooth game or even a powerful unit, as seen in the numerous armies that have some kind of gimmick that doesn’t really work, eg nightlords or banshees.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I've played three-four but it was years ago now. My old 2k list is like 1810 or something now.

 

'Making their points back' isn't how winning games works. Blight Lords are for taking damage not dealing it. 207 points is pretty cheap for the punishment they can take. Of course you can't win very often if you rely lucky charges but that's just one of the many things BL can do.

 

Death Guard aren't winning any top table games but they never really did and that's not Blight Lords as a unit's fault.

 

Death Guard psychic support boosts all Death Guard units, so it really doesn't matter that any one unit needs spells to really hit hard.

Making their points back means being competitively priced for what they do. When people like hooson take 10 Blightlord terminators and drop them in the back field, buff them and charge, it's not for taking damage. Taking competitively priced units and using them effeciently is attempting to win games. At 41pts a peice with two wounds for their cheapest loadout, PBC's are much better for taking damage.

 

Death guard aren't winning table tops anymore because of the amount of power creep and games being decided by T1 shooting. You're right that's not Blightlords fault, that's game mechanics. Death Guard used to win games with objectives but that's harder to do now when you get tabled turn 3-4 on one of if not the most resilient factions.

 

And Death Guard psychic support doesn't effect all Death Guard units. 3 of them are support spells, Miasma does, vitality only effects <infantry> and blades only buffs melee. Just saying. You could take a FW dread with butchers for less points then 5 termies then save your spells for MW spamming, or a cheaper PBC for a better distraction.

 

Blightlord terminators were okay. Not bad, but not great for the points. But now that other terminators are getting drops and they are not, I don't think they are worth it anymore. A new mechanic for all terminators would help. Preferably a reliable charge one. PA might address that with a strat. I'm used to burning a CP for reroll anyways when I played them.

 

And for DG specifically, Deathshroud are going to 42pts after CA, one point more than a bolter axe blight lord. Except their attacks are all s8 -3ap and d3 damage. And they all get one more attack. For 1 more point. And in melee they get their free auto hitting pistols... Unless it's extremely weak 5+ armor chaff with 1w and you roll all 3's on your flail for attacks, Deathshroud look like a much better melee unit.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Putrid Choir