Make Terminators Great Again

[Panzer]

 

 

'Making their points back' isn't how winning games works. Blight Lords are for taking damage not dealing it. 207 points is pretty cheap for the punishment they can take. Of course you can't win very often if you rely lucky charges but that's just one of the many things BL can do.

 

This is why I kept my comparison to Intercessor vs Basic Chaos Terminator. They both have an all-around battle role, just with slightly different equipment, so it's a more direct comparison. If loyalists had a chainaxe equivalent then I'd take Terminators regularly. If they stay outside of 12" (15" if fighting Intercessors) and lob shots as long as possible and then aim to get into melee with something that is hardier than a GEQ profile then they (on paper) outperform Intercessors in many metrics.

 

 

If you really want to compare them to something that gets used I suggest Sanguinary Guard. Same toughness, same amount of attacks, same armour, same melee weapon (power fist), somewhat similar ranged weapon (half the shots but AP-1 and only 12" but for free) and both can deep strike. And a fancy special rule Terminators don't have access to.

And even with Sanguinary Guard it's a toss up for BA players. DC and VV aren't that much worse, if at all, usually.

[Captain Idaho]

Fury of the 1st would be a viable way of mitigating 4s to hit and if it's a major attack force you're probably using a Chapter Master anyway.

 

5 Terminators and a Chapter Master, in a Crusader, will be a decent attack force now I reckon.

[jaxom]

 

 

 

'Making their points back' isn't how winning games works. Blight Lords are for taking damage not dealing it. 207 points is pretty cheap for the punishment they can take. Of course you can't win very often if you rely lucky charges but that's just one of the many things BL can do.

 

This is why I kept my comparison to Intercessor vs Basic Chaos Terminator. They both have an all-around battle role, just with slightly different equipment, so it's a more direct comparison. If loyalists had a chainaxe equivalent then I'd take Terminators regularly. If they stay outside of 12" (15" if fighting Intercessors) and lob shots as long as possible and then aim to get into melee with something that is hardier than a GEQ profile then they (on paper) outperform Intercessors in many metrics.

 

 

If you really want to compare them to something that gets used I suggest Sanguinary Guard. Same toughness, same amount of attacks, same armour, same melee weapon (power fist), somewhat similar ranged weapon (half the shots but AP-1 and only 12" but for free) and both can deep strike. And a fancy special rule Terminators don't have access to.

And even with Sanguinary Guard it's a toss up for BA players. DC and VV aren't that much worse, if at all, usually.

 

I don't play Blood Angels and don't play against them often. Do Sanguinary Guard fulfill a similar purpose as Tactical or Assault terminators in Blood Angel lists? The only recent exposure I've had to them is from listening to the Forge the Narrative podcast; the host made it sound like Sanguinary Guard were not a very good unit for their points cost until Blood of Baal made some point changes and gave them unique stratagems.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Death guard aren't winning table tops anymore because of the amount of power creep and games being decided by T1 shooting. You're right that's not Blightlords fault, that's game mechanics. Death Guard used to win games with objectives but that's harder to do now when you get tabled turn 3-4 on one of if not the most resilient factions.

 

Pure Death Guard never won top tables nor did any non-soup chaos list, power creep is irrelevant they couldn't scratch Astra Milatarum or Index Ynnari.. The only way they were winning was either spamming bloat drones before rule of 3 or abusing poxwalkers and allied cultists.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Put them in landraider if you really want reliable charge .

[jaxom]

Top is how many points it would take a Terminator or Sanguinary Guard with that equipment to kill 17 MEQ, 51 GEQ, 12 PEQ, and 1 KEQ (a Knight Warde is 406 points to the 204 of the other groups).

 

The bottom is the same except with all the bonuses of charging with Assault Doctrine active.

 

 

First, let me note that shooting with the Terminators was, unsurprisingly, better than the Sanguinary Guard. However, neither are efficient shooting platforms at their point costs. So, don't let shooting impact your judgement of lightning claws.

 

Second, the GEQ data is somewhat deceptive. For example, 551 points of Terminators to wipe out 204 points Guardsman can be proportioned to a single squad of 5 LC Terminators at 175 killing two and a half squads of ten Guardsman in one charge.

 

TL;DR:

• Sanguinary Guard with Encarmine Axes are awesome all-a-rounders and best against KEQs for their points.
• Lightning Claw Terminators are the best at taking down infantry in general for their points.
• Terminators with Chainfists are the best against PEQs (SG w/EA slightly better at it in combat, but not enough to make up for the difference in the shooting phase) for their points.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Lightning claws are a waste on Terminators.

[Interrogator Stobz]

In my mind, there is no way a termite ( who is like a character in his own right) should have fewer wounds than a meat sack minor character.

My mind also has them tougher than normal marines, because all the lore supports this.

Their armour save was designed for pre 8th weapons and pre mortals, so an improved set of armour rules is needed. Either reroll normal saves or improved invulnerable save by one point each type would not be too much.

 

So stats of T5 4W for me, make them a few more points, 2+,4++ for normal TDA seems about right. Storm Shields can remain 3++ ofc. Cataphractii can have 3++ base as they are soooooo slow.

Those two boosts makes them feel right against mass fire and heavy weapons.

 

Then all that needs fixing is their damage output and mobility...

Edited December 14, 2019 by Interrogator Stobz

[Gederas]

In my mind, there is no way a termite ( who is like a character in his own right) should have fewer wounds than a meat sack minor character.

My mind also has them tougher than normal marines, because all the lore supports this.

Their armour save was designed for pre 8th weapons and pre mortals, so an improved set of armour rules is needed. Either reroll normal saves or improved invulnerable save by one point each type would not be too much.

 

So stats of T5 4W for me, make them a few more points, 2+,4++ for normal TDA seems about right. Storm Shields can remain 3++ ofc. Cataphractii can have 3++ base as they are soooooo slow.

Those two boosts makes them feel right against mass fire and heavy weapons.

 

Then all that needs fixing is their damage output and mobility...

One minor issue:

 

What happens with the Cataphractii Captain? Because the Iron Halo + Cataphractii Armour gives him a 2+/3++ save. With your idea that means he'd be rocking a 2+/2++..... :lol:

[Interrogator Stobz]

Nope, IH and his armour both give 3++, so no benefit from the IH, tough Cookies for an already tough Cookie.

Maybe it could give a reroll...?

Not totes sold on that.

[Waking Dreamer]

Add a wound to every Terminator across the board, bar those that already have 3 wounds, then boom done.

 

Hell I'd even let Blightlords have 4 wounds but there probably has to be a line when a Lascannon is unlikely to hurt the unit

 

Things don't have to be complicated...

 I like it. Simple. Effective.

 

And just to add, since GK Paladins already have 3 wounds, I'd give them all default WS2+ (like in their 7Ed equivalent).  

[Chaplain Elijah]

Played a squad of regulars Power Fist + Storm Bolter Terminators yesterday night. They got runned over by Ork Boys and a Nob with a Claw. Never again.

[jaxom]

Lightning claws are a waste on Terminators.

 

Eh, seems like a good 175 points for a turn three drop as Blood Angels. It's the +1 wound that does it, just like Space Wolves will get more out of the -1 to hit weapons because they cancel it out when they charge. However, Blood Angels also have Sanguinary Guard which are equally durable against almost all weapons.

 

 

 

I think a lot of it comes down to what are Terminators useful for in a list, how they are used with the rest of the list, and whether they are appropriately priced compared to other units doing the same thing. Sanguinary Guard with Encarmine Axes can get similar enough results against T4 targets while being much more mobile. Codex chapters have Vanguard Veterans and those are less durable (1W, 3+ Sv) and cost about 23 to 27 points per model. None are great against large units of chaff because they don't produce enough attacks per point compared to other units available. Intercessors and Tactical Squads are better at that for their points cost if one can keep them getting more than one shot per Firing phase and use them in the Assault phase.

 

It's hard to talk about Terminator viability if their role and/or purpose is ill-defined. For most of the time I've been playing them they were useful against tanks, non-melee oriented MEQs, and as a back line distraction. I think a large part of the problem is that it's more difficult to one shot a tank with powerfists (and one or two chainfists) and back lines have more oomph and hardiness than they used to. Terminators themselves are not less durable to individual weapons (except AP-2 weapons), but there's a lot more weapons on the field compared to them due anti-tank melee weapons being costed the same as anti-tank ranged weapons. A plasma gun can reliably do the same damage as a powerfist, which only costs two points less, and the powerfist is used much less often.

 

Terminators just need affordable weapon options.

[Closet Skeleton]

Played a squad of regulars Power Fist + Storm Bolter Terminators yesterday night. They got runned over by Ork Boys and a Nob with a Claw. Never again.

 

That would have happened every edition, sounds more like you positioned them wrong. Weight of attacks from charging Ork boys has always been a weakness of terminators and the only change is the boyz are slightly more accurate.

 

 

Their armour save was designed for pre 8th weapons and pre mortals, so an improved set of armour rules is needed. Either reroll normal saves or improved invulnerable save by one point each type would not be too much.

 

Not really, the armour save was designed for 1st ed which also had modifiers. Terminators were never especially tough in 3rd-7th unless you took a whole army of them. Terminators dying too easily has been a problem in every edition except 2nd and the solution they used really slows the game down.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Chaplain Elijah]

That would have happened every edition, sounds more like you positioned them wrong.

Maybe i did played them wrong.

Though a squad of 20+ Ork who moved with a 5 on advance and then did a double digit charge in one turn wasn't something i'd expect to happen at that moment.

 

 

Weight of attacks from charging Ork boys has always been a weakness of terminators and the only change is the boyz are slightly more accurate.

Is that so ? Seems like Terminators have way too many weaknesses for being the most elite unit of the most elite armies.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Brother Closet Skeleton:

Do you remember TDA in RT?

I'm glad you recognize that TDA survival has been a problem every Edition except 2nd. I agree wholeheartedly.

My comment that the mechanic was designed pre 8th stands as correct.

 

And my proposal does not recreate that of 2nd Ed; a better invulnerable and higher toughness solves the current issues with zero slowdown.

Do you have any constructive points to add to this conversation? It's easy to shoot down others ideas, what are your solutions?

Edited December 14, 2019 by Interrogator Stobz

[Wulf Vengis]

I've always felt that terminator armor should have a strength and toughness boost, and some sort of anti-plasma rule. As the fluff has always indicated that tda was originally used for maintenance work in plasma cores. Allowing the workers a great deal of strength to accomplish their jobs, as well as the resistance to the harsh environment within.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Terminator Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5++.

Before doing an Amour or Invulnerable Save roll 2D6, if the result is superior to the Strength of the Attack the Armour Penetration and Damage of that attack are halved.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Maybe i did played them wrong.

Though a squad of 20+ Ork who moved with a 5 on advance and then did a double digit charge in one turn wasn't something i'd expect to happen at that moment.

 

That's really something you have to learn can happen.

 

 

Is that so ? Seems like Terminators have way too many weaknesses for being the most elite unit of the most elite armies.

 

Basically yes, but their two main weaknesses have always been high AP attacks and volume of attacks.

 

A power klaw nob could easily kill 3 terminators with only slightly above average rolls in 3rd ed and 20 charging boys would take down that many by themselves. Haven't used Orks since then but my genestealers killed more terminators with their non-rending attacks then their 6s in 5th ed and that was the last time I fought terminators.

 

Brother Closet Skeleton:

Do you remember TDA in RT?

I'm glad you recognize that TDA survival has been a problem every Edition except 2nd. I agree wholeheartedly.

My comment that the mechanic was designed pre 8th stands as correct.

 

And my proposal does not recreate that of 2nd Ed; a better invulnerable and higher toughness solves the current issues with zero slowdown.

Do you have any constructive points to add to this conversation? It's easy to shoot down others ideas, what are your solutions?

 

I don't remember RT, but warhammer fantasy worked the same way except 1+ saves were more common. I don't even really remember 2nd ed since I never played against terminators in the few games of it I did play.

 

Better toughness and invulnerable saves doesn't solve the current issue at all since Blightlords have that AND feel no pain and are only just tough enough. I'm not a big fan of the 4+ invulnerable save on cataphracti since it just makes the unit feel like their real save is 4+ and the 2+ doesn't mean anything.

 

Yesterday I put the "half damage" and "can't wound me on better than 4+" warlord traits on a Primaris captain and with a little luck walked him through 3 Tau Riptides worth of overwatch. That's what it actually takes to be hard to kill in 8th ed, toughness is meaningless.

 

Being really tough takes special rules not just stats, that was the same in 3rd ed where the hardest thing to kill could be a Eldar Vyper Jetbike and its true in 8th. Aberrants are tough despite having a 5+ save and T4 because their -1 damage rule combos well with their feel no pain.

 

-1 to all wound rolls

reroll saves of 1

-1 to all weapon damage.

 

Any of those would help out terminators more than a toughness boost and not slow the game down any more than feel no pain or quantum shielding.

 

Terminator Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5++.

Before doing an Amour or Invulnerable Save roll 2D6, if the result is superior to the Strength of the Attack the Armour Penetration and Damage of that attack are halved.

That's painfully complicated.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Wulf Vengis]

Terminator: 5++/ignore the ap penalty from enemy ranged weapons.

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

Terminator Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5++.

Before doing an Amour or Invulnerable Save roll 2D6, if the result is superior to the Strength of the Attack the Armour Penetration and Damage of that attack are halved.

That's painfully complicated.

 

 

Another form could be :

 

Terminator Armor

Model has an Invulnerable Save of 5++.

Before doing an Amour or Invulnerable Save roll a D6, if the result is superior to the AP value of that attack it become AP0.

[Wulf Vengis]

Additionally to what i said before...

 

Terminator Armor:

5++ Invulnerable Save

Ignore AP penalties from enemy ranged weapons.

*Terminator Assault: units equipped with terminator armor may deep strike no closer than 6" to any enemy models.

[jaxom]

I took the two ideas and compared what they do to Terminator saves.

 

Save required was easier to plot, but it's effectively AP0 to AP-5.

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I remember when they didn’t have an invulnerable save.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I remember when they didn't need one