Make Terminators Great Again

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Seeing Blood Angels got a huge boost including combat doctrines I see no reason why Dark Angels or Space Wolves won’t as well. Is just matter of being a little patient now. That said the sooner the better.

[Ishagu]

I have actually witnessed the new BA in action. Pretty tasty!

 

Termies actually work well in a BA list, but they still aren't as attractive due to alternatives like Sanguinary Guard. I don't have any feedback yet on DC Intercessors.

[Rik Lightstar]

How about a rule along these lines:

 

--

 

++Utterly Unyielding++

When rolling to wound against a model in Terminator Armour subtract 1 from the wound roll.

 

--

 

It's nice and simple, it effects all weapon types without breaking their armour saves. And it helps to defend them against the growing number of "do something extra on a 6 to wound" abilities.

 

Rik

[jaxom]

Terminator Tip Collection

 

General

• Terminators are too expensive to be a distraction carnifex. 
• Space marines (Imperial or Chaos) are not known for having an excess of units on the board, but you still need more than one unit in your army to be a threat.
• Terminators then become either a pocket threat (pumping out an excess of damage compared to the damage they receive and relatively intact late game)
• Alternatively, Terminators can be played aggressively as a hinge unit (they work in concert with at least one other unit in the army to either take pressure of it or to use it as a way to take pressure off them).
• Deepstrike keeps terminators safe, but aggressive deployment later is not a default.
• Don't plan on making a post-deepstrike charge unless your army has ways to make that more probable (stratagems, army rules, deploying in a character's aura, etc).
• Deepstriking to reinforce your battle line or an objective is more useful than deploying in the enemy's face unless you need to immediately offer up a "threat that has to be dealt with" in order to relieve pressure on a unit vital to you winning the game. Either you lose the terminators quickly (they won't meet the "make their points back" kill metric, but you should be netting victory points) or they're now a disruption unit for the next turn (you don't net the victory points, but you now have an aggressively positioned unit of terminators which survived to turn deepstrike+1).
• The bane of terminators are 2D multishot weapons and 2D high strength weapons (usually higher volume in enemy armies because they're cheaper than traditional anti-tank weapons). Use line of site and pressure from other units to avoid these sorts or things.
• AP is what it is. Terminators can tank low rate of fire high strength and high AP weapons, but will melt like any other unit against medium to high volume of fire from these weapons (e.g. a single meltagun is okay, but five of them is not).

 

Tactical Terminators (Imperial Terminator Squad, Cataphactii Terminator Squad, or Chaos Terminator Squad)

• Bolter Drill and a Rapid Fire 2 Str4 AP0 ranged weapon are best used beyond 12" or 15" (i.e. rapid fire range for the other army).
• Kite the enemy and, if possible, draw units out of position as they try to close with you.
• Pair with a unit that either moves faster or will be advancing. Move to grab objectives lateral to the enemy (with the terminators being the two in a one-two punch).
• Only take cheap, multi-shot heavy weapons (if any) in order to mitigate the -1 to hit when moving.
• Chainaxes are good, cheap melee weapons and will give an edge against T4 and T8 units. Chainfists are good against Sv3+ 2W models (e.g. Primaris infantry).
• Don't take powerfists. The price difference doesn't make up for the D3 vs 2 damage (the latter either does more or the same casualties as the former).
• A hit buff is very useful if the terminators are armed with Chainfists. Pair them with an aura, stratagem, psychic power, or detachment ability to increase lethality.
• Advance-and-Fire Armies lose the benefit of Bolter Drill when advancing. The change from four to two shots (compared to a bolter or bolt rifle) in exchange for more mobility changes the normal considerations.
• Cataphactii armour is worth it for the 4+ save against AP-3 weapons. However, your movement game has to be on point with them during all phases where models get moved.

Assault Terminators (Terminator squads which must take or can take only melee weapons)

• Not worth it in general, however, specific factions can boost them enough to be very worthwhile against specific targets.
• Never really going to be worth it if you are using them to attack chaff models (cultists or conscripts) or horde models (boyz or hormagaunts). The terminators will be bogged down, overcome by sheer weight of numbers, or waste a turn falling back.
• Armies with a reliable "+1 to hit in melee" source can get some mileage out of Thunder Hammers against super-heavies and knights, but those are more niche strategies which I would let someone with more experience doing so explain.
• Armies with a reliable "+1 to wound in melee" source can get some mileage out of Lightning Claws against marines of all sorts, but those are more niche strategies which I would let someone with more experience doing so explain.
• Don't take a Land Raider (of any type) just to transport them. The Land Raider needs to have its own place in your battle plan and transporting terminators inside is more of a perk rather than a feature.
• Think at least a turn ahead when it comes time to deploy them.

Edited December 19, 2019 by jaxom

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have actually witnessed the new BA in action. Pretty tasty!

Termies actually work well in a BA list, but they still aren't as attractive due to alternatives like Sanguinary Guard. I don't have any feedback yet on DC Intercessors.

All the extra attacks are totally insane.

[Panzer]

I don't have any feedback yet on DC Intercessors.

A waste of points compared to regular Intercessors and not as good as Veteran Intercessors. Unfortunately.

[Claws and Effect]

Don't know if anyone has pointed this out or not, but saying plasma weapons were designed to take out Terminators just isn't correct.

 

In the fluff, plasma weapons were developed before anyone had any notion that they would ever be shooting at someone in Terminator armor, because the only ones wearing it were their allies.

 

That and IIRC the original purpose of Terminator armor was to wear it while walking around inside plasma reactors to make repairs. Doesn't make a lot of sense to use plasma to kill a guy wearing armor that was specifically designed to protect him from it.

[totgeboren]

Some people seem to like them as is, some (many?) seem to think they are a bit weak.
 

I would like to see the impact of dropping the 5++ save, and instead giving them a "re-roll failed save rolls" rule (so include invuns, even if they don't have it).
Cataphractii terminator would get a 5++ instead of their 4++. Characters in TDA with separate invuls would be more durable compared to their more nimble counterparts in regular PA.

Yes, really high AP attacks would nuke terminators, but the entire point of such attacks is to be able to defeat the thickest of armours. Which is what TDA is...
And come to think of it, they would still have almost the same chance of saving against AP -4 hits (~30% instead of 33%), but be less susceptible to weight of fire attacks.

Perhaps this would be to much of a buff? They would retain most of their weakness, but you could at least use them as a really resilient thorn in the side of your enemy.

Edited December 25, 2019 by totgeboren

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

AP4 would equate to a 6+ save... hawt garbage versus any other SM army in Devastator Doctrine.

[totgeboren]

AP4 would equate to a 6+ save... hawt garbage versus any other SM army in Devastator Doctrine.

Saving on a 6 with a reroll is about the same chance as saving on 5+ without a reroll. So equally bad?

 

Also, against AP 0 attacks you would be looking at rerollable 2+ saves, which is something I think/hope GW are trying to avoid.

Edited December 25, 2019 by totgeboren

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d rather have the 4++ for Cataprachii armor and be done with it.

 

What are you gonna tell people with assault terminators ?

Edited December 26, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly Terminator should have 4+ IV Save

[Volt]

A 4++ is the only invul save that actually matters. In most cases you'll be up against AP-3, so the Terminator is using a 5+ armor save anyway. AP -4 for the most part doesn't exist, and I doubt you'll see much AP-4 being thrown at something as non-threatening as a squad of Terminators.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Cataprachii do have 4++. SM have access to quite a bit of AP4 in Devastator Doctrine. Edited December 26, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Interrogator Stobz]

Other TDA do not have 4++ , and there are more opponents than astartes in the galaxy.

Volts comment is very good.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I was replying to Schiltzaf. Volts replied to him first while I was in the midst of replying. SM are quite popular now too. Edited December 26, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Interrogator Stobz]

Roger that.

[totgeboren]

A 4++ is the only invul save that actually matters. In most cases you'll be up against AP-3, so the Terminator is using a 5+ armor save anyway. AP -4 for the most part doesn't exist, and I doubt you'll see much AP-4 being thrown at something as non-threatening as a squad of Terminators.

 

I agree 4++ is about where terminators need to be against big guns, but they still melt easily against a big mob of boyz or similar.

With no invul but a straight reroll failed saves, against -3 attacks a Termie would have a slight better chance of surviving the hit from a -3 AP attack (compared to 5++), but not die so easily against weight of fire.

 

But sure, any rule tweak would need to be phrased so that no profiles needs to change. Just adding "reroll failed saves of 1" to the current Terminator keyword would probably be enough I think.

[Volt]

 

A 4++ is the only invul save that actually matters. In most cases you'll be up against AP-3, so the Terminator is using a 5+ armor save anyway. AP -4 for the most part doesn't exist, and I doubt you'll see much AP-4 being thrown at something as non-threatening as a squad of Terminators.

 

I agree 4++ is about where terminators need to be against big guns, but they still melt easily against a big mob of boyz or similar.

With no invul but a straight reroll failed saves, against -3 attacks a Termie would have a slight better chance of surviving the hit from a -3 AP attack (compared to 5++), but not die so easily against weight of fire.

 

But sure, any rule tweak would need to be phrased so that no profiles needs to change. Just adding "reroll failed saves of 1" to the current Terminator keyword would probably be enough I think.

 

I'd be in of just changing the invul's to FNP's and maybe a toughness or wound boost. 2+/5++ is a joke, but 2+/5+++ with toughness 5 is a lot harder to crack. Death Guard Terminators could simply have their FNP's boosted to 4+++'s, which would also help them out.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Volt

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

4+++ Blightlords would be broken. Seriously that kind of suggestion doesn’t help improve the state of the game. Edited January 5, 2020 by Claws and Effect
Swear filter dodge.

[Volt]

4+++ Blightlords would be broke as heck. Seriously that kind of suggestion doesn’t help improve the state of the game.

Not really because even if Blightlords were borderline unkillable, they're a slow blob that struggles to get anywhere and depending on them to win a game would be strategic suicide.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You’re wrong there - common misconception about Cataprachii armor.

[salixstar]

admitedly i've not read all 6 pages of this topic. (its a lot to read and its far to late/early at night)

 

but IMO the solution to terminators is simple. make the save 3+ on 2D6 (back to 2nd edition) might also need to increase there points a bit to accommodate this but terminators should be walking tanks that require massive amounts of fire to get kill and this would do it.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

admitedly i've not read all 6 pages of this topic. (its a lot to read and its far to late/early at night)

 

but IMO the solution to terminators is simple. make the save 3+ on 2D6 (back to 2nd edition) might also need to increase there points a bit to accommodate this but terminators should be walking tanks that require massive amounts of fire to get kill and this would do it.

That also eliminates fast-rolling so you're slowing down the game tempo. That might not go down well with some folks and seems to fly in the face of GW's current philosophy of high-lethality gameplay.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

3+ on d12 ? Never happen.