Make Terminators Great Again

[Interrogator Stobz]

And it highlights the huge weakness of TDA movement.

[Gederas]

How to fix terminators:

1. Rerollable saves across the board (including their invulns)
2. Better invulnerable saves (4++ on Indomitus/Tartaros, 3++ on Cataphractii)
3. Toughness 5 (Death Guard terminators become T6), 3 Wounds Each
4. Ignore weapon penalties (-1 to hit from moving, and the -1 to hit from Powerfist/Chainfist/Thunder Hammers)
5. 5 Points Cheaper before Wargear

Done. Terminators are now fixed.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Nailed it.

Edit: either 1 or 2, not both. As BBF says, a bit much.

 

Now fix stratagems and doctrines... ;)

 

You'd better be listening GW, or else :P

Edited December 29, 2019 by Interrogator Stobz

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s too OP especially seeing where SM rank in the meta now. +1 to invuls and a 3rd wound would be great though.

[Jukkiz]

I see alot suggestions but i wonder how many think how these changes would work with certain chapters and rules and CP options...

There is ALOT to wonder nowdays

[Ishagu]

No re-rolls for saves. It was one of the worst things about 6th and 7th edition. Have people learned nothing from the past? Lol

 

There are a few chapters and units which create a slanted view of Astartes. Iron Hands are obviously too good, and Assault Centurions in combinations with certain chapters (WS, RG) are potentially a problem. Aside from these there is room for improvement for certain units. The issue with Terminators might be their lack of focus - they simply aren't specialised enough, and sharing a profile across variations doesn't help. The DG variant works well but their defence bonuses are linked to the Nurgle bonuses.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Ishagu

[Panzer]

6th and 7th had no armour save modifier beyond "you don't get armour" though. So it's not directly comparable.

Besides re-rolls is the name of the game for this edition.

[Panzer]

I see alot suggestions but i wonder how many think how these changes would work with certain chapters and rules and CP options...

 

There is ALOT to wonder nowdays

 

Like people writing alot instead of a lot.

 

Joking aside, what exactly worries you? How about mentioning what exactly you think might turn buffed Terminators into a broken unit instead of just throwing something  into the room and see what the rest is doing with it?

Edited December 29, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Vermintide]

This topic is back huh?

 

I've thought about this quite a lot, and my opinions keep changing on it. Currently, I think the solution more lies in getting rid of the restrictions, than it does buffing and bloating up their rules. I'd maybe give them a third wound, but I think their armour and invulns are OK- If they die too fast, it's the edition that's the problem, not the unit. Everything dies too fast this edition. We don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Blood Angels get a decent buff now with the +1 to charge, and we all have access to chaplain litanies to boost charge ranges. That goes quite a long way to making these guys less useless- The problem is always getting them where they need to go. Remove the -1 on heavy weapons, remove the -1 on unwieldy weapons, and give them back a normal 6" of movement.

These guys are the most elite veterans of a chapter's 1st company, they're using the most advanced armour technology available in the Imperium; and, more importantly, they cost a hell of a lot of points. Therefore I think it's reasonable to expect them to be a straight upgrade from a Tactical marine- Not just a slower, less accurate marine with only slightly better survivability.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Vermintide

[Chaplain Elijah]

I've keep reading the fluff, here's another batch of rules :

 

Tartaros Armor
At the end of your Movement Phase the unit may Consolidate.
The unit ignore all penalties To Hit induced by their own equipment. Non-Heavy Attacks targeting the model(s) are at -1 To Wound.
 
Indomitus Armor
At the end of your Movement Phase, if the unit didn't Advance or Charge it may Consolidate.
The unit ignore all penalties To Hit induced by their own equipment. Non-Heavy Attacks targeting the model(s) are at -1 To Wound.
 
Cataphractii Armor
Halve advance Roll.
At the end of your Movement Phase, if the unit didn't Advance or Charge it may Consolidate.
The unit ignore all penalties To Hit induced by their own equipment. Non-Heavy Attacks targeting the model(s) are at -1 To Wound.

 

Allarus Armor

At the end of your Movement Phase the unit may Consolidate.
The unit ignore all penalties To Hit induced by their own equipment. Attacks targeting the model(s) are at -1 To Wound.

[Closet Skeleton]

The thing I don't like about reducing the stats of incoming fire is the negative impact on the fun had by the opponent; they pay points for their weapons and want them to work as intended, I know I have always disliked rules that lower my stats, old Dante for example, and I'm in the hobby for fun, both mine and my opponents.

I appreciate that the net result could be the same as just making the saves better, but to me it's kind of a mind space thing.

 

It's also not as simple as a straightforward better Inv. or a reroll. KISS is king in my books, this game is complicated enough for us casual players.

An extra wound is also a great simple option 

 

Better invulnerable save destroys the theme of the unit. Units that rely on invulnerable saves are generally either daemons, have force fields or super reflexes. Terminators are supposed to be the toughest you can be with just mundane armour.

 

 

It’s too OP especially seeing where SM rank in the meta now. +1 to invuls and a 3rd wound would be great though.

 

Buffing a unit no one uses won't necessarily buff the faction at all.

 

 

No re-rolls for saves. It was one of the worst things about 6th and 7th edition. Have people learned nothing from the past? Lol

Onager dunecrawlers reroll saves, plague bearers and anything else with 5+ FNP and 5+ invulnerable effectively reroll saves a lot of the time.

 

Re-rollable saves on storm shields would be over-powered, a 2+ armour that rerolls 1s wouldn't be that powerful against the big guns but would basically force you to bring those out to kill a terminator which to be is more thematically accurate than a 4+ invulnerable shrugging off volcano cannons as easily as lascannons.

[jaxom]

This last page and a half of conversation made me wonder if there's not two different ways to view the problem.

 

On one hand, we have the idea of Terminators as a unit - comparing their survivability and damage to others and where they should fit in those spectra.

On the other hand, we have the role of Terminators - what were they used for, are they okay at fulfilling that purpose, if not then how can it be improved.

 

Here's what I used Terminators for in previous editions:

1. Storm Bolters, Powerfists, 1 or 2 Chainfists: The default option. Slow, but mobile, almost always moving and shooting at infantry. Strategically, they were a serious threat to armour, restricting where tanks felt safe. A single chainfist could take out most vehicles in a single turn, two to three powerfists would take out light (and depending on facing) and medium vehicles in a single turn.
2. Lightning Claws: I didn't use them on their own because I could take one or two in a squad of Deathwing (they would be there to act at higher initiative take out threats to the power- and chainfists).
3. Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields: My default melee option during the dark times when Deathwing couldn't mix-and-match Tactical and Assault. They were not my anti-tank choice (Storm bolters and power/chainfists). They were my heavy-control: find the most dangerous single to three model unit and proceed to get into a slugfest that lasts the rest of the game. Storm shields and terminator armour with the concussive effect of thunder hammers meant there weren't a lot of targets that would be able to quickly get back in the game once melee achieved.

Here's the question I leave to you all. Would you rather see Terminators "great again" in terms of their previous combat roles (and what were your experiences in that regard?) or would you rather see Terminators brought to parity with Intercessors/Sanguinary Guard/etc?

[Panzer]

Would you rather see Terminators "great again" in terms of their previous combat roles (and what were your experiences in that regard?) or would you rather see Terminators brought to parity with Intercessors/Sanguinary Guard/etc?

 

It's pretty much the same thing for me, really.

 

However while Terminators can and definitely should be improved I feel like the problem is mostly with the game itself. When half of an army or more can shoot at a unit and that army consists of multiple tanks and heavy weapon teams and perhaps even a knight and whatnot, then it makes sense for Terminators to die. They aren't really supposed to shrug off an army worth of shooting. However that's exactly what they'd need to be able to since when you drop them they are out in the open for a turn and when you charge something it falls back and once again they are out in the open. Instead they are supposed to be superior against single squads, some hordes, perhaps one tank weathering some direct fire until one or two reach it and tear it appart.

That's not a problem unique to Terminators though. Tanks, Dreadnoughts and Marines in general have the same problem. 40k just became too big for its own good imo and further reducing the points of everything every year is not helping.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Adeptus Titanicus is, at least to me a great example of how things can be more fun.

Their unit are resilient (relative to the offensive abilities of the opposition). They usually survive more than one set of dice rolls.

 

40k is far too lethal.

TDA cannot match their own fluff in that environment.

Making them cheaper cheapens them. That sucks their elite status out from under them.

They need resilience.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s a knife edge to make them more resilient but not OP. They weren’t any better the previous edition really.

[Panzer]

Nobody used them the previous edition either because they were so bad. So that's not an argument at all. In fact them going to two wounds, Plasma and Grav not simply ignoring their armour and them being able to deep strike exactly where they want to be is a big improvement over last edition. It's just not enough unfortunately because many other things have become better too.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s not meant to be an argument.

[Panzer]

Ah, so just spam I guess.

Edited December 29, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Interrogator Stobz]

++Agree to disagree you two, be constructive where possible.++

 

Making TDA great again is all about relativity.

They need better stats than Primaris, so an extra wound, an extra attack first.

Their armour has been discussed enough, there are good options presented to fix that.

Their offensive capability has also been well nudged, the -1 to hit is just wrong for TDA.

 

Now their points just need balancing once they get better at being elite again; cheaper is worse, if they cost more but are more elite they hit their mark in relation to their fluff.

[Marshal Reinhard]

bring back 3+ on 2d6. 

 

It'll solve its vulnerability towards massed small arms fire which is the problem it is suffering from, too easy to kill with small arms

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s already been discussed rolling 2d6 slows the game.

[jaxom]

bring back 3+ on 2d6. 

 

It'll solve its vulnerability towards massed small arms fire which is the problem it is suffering from, too easy to kill with small arms

 

It’s already been discussed rolling 2d6 slows the game.

 

Some number crunching later, a 2+ save re-rolling failed saves gives odds about half-way between 3+ on 2D6 and 2+ re-rolling ones (other than the base save which is 97% for all three of those options).

Here's the actually numbers:

 

 

What's kind of interesting is that 2+ re-roll failed effectively gives a 4++ save against AP-3 and a 5++ save against AP-4 weapons.

 

From the current read of people's feedback, here's what I'd lean towards:

 

Crux Terminatus (classic Indominatus): The unit can re-roll armour save rolls.

 

Reinforced Ablative Plating (pre-Crux Cataphractii): The unit can re-roll armour save rolls and has a 4+ invulnerable save.

 

Enhanced Servo-bundles (pre-Crux Tartartos): The unit can re-roll armour save rolls of one and has a 5+ invulnerable save. In addition, add 1 to Advance and Charge rolls made for the unit.

 

Tactical Dreadnought Armour (all): The unit ignores the penalty to hit for moving and firing a Heavy weapon. In addition, the unit ignores the penalty to hit from attacking with powerfists, chainfists, and thunder hammers.

[Marshal Reinhard]

It’s already been discussed rolling 2d6 slows the game.

well guess sometimes sacrifices have to be made 

[Redcomet]

It’s already been discussed rolling 2d6 slows the game.

just bring different sets if 2d6. 5 different pairs. Problem solved.

 

And seriously, not like rolling 2d6 for saves takes 30 minutes.

[Panzer]

Oh yeah? Alright let me shoot your Terminators with my Aggressors. Whoops that'd be 19 saves you have to make on average. Let's say you have two sets of dice with you because I know nobody who has more than two sets with them and most usually only have one set even. That's 10 rolls you have to make. Instead of just one, or two if we consider re-rolls instead. They didn't die of course. So let me shoot with another unit at them. And then another. It gets worse when there are weapons with different profiles mixed in, especially with different damage stats.

It really adds up quickly and wastes a LOT of time in a game where people already complain about it taking too long as is.