Make Terminators Great Again

[Interrogator Stobz]

Especially if the net result is almost the same as a plain reroll as shown in Brother jaxom's post.

[aura_enchanted]

i propose a radical new approach so follow along, i propose a scale system. basically we make each terminator different based on the book your in. the extremes being melee and shooting and the center is cost.

 

codex marines: codex marine terminators remains as they are but exist dead in the middle, they are the cheapest. the imperium rolls out to codex complaint chapters like its clockwork, they can afford to supply themselves with more parts and more bodies to fill boots then their deviant kin. a nice simple explanation.

 

melee:

 

wolves: ruthless, cunning, bold, and born from an ice world that turns men into walking tanks (and thats before the armor). each wolfguard terminator is a one man wrecking crew capable of slaying all before them with contemptuous ease. the wolves are cheaper in cost to field (more then codex but less then the extremes), no canon reason here but it makes them less automatically ignored in favour of thunderwolf cavalry, and they have ws2+

 

bloods angels: to our left we have the melee terminator and non better at it then the blood angels martial masters, and the terminators are elite of the elite, no foe can resist their dueling skills for long or their ruthless red thirst. they cost as they do now, but in addition to the ws2+ of the wolf terminator, they also have reduced deepstrike range, helping them get to the foe easier and to make them not objectively inferior to their competitor the sanguinary guard. i propose a 7" deployment thought we can debate the exact number in a seperate discussion.

 

shooty:

 

the deathwatch terminator is a prized warrior, and with his wide array of experiences he has learned to anticipate his enemies as well as weild his ranged weapons with extreme efficiency. the deathwatch while non compliant exist within the inquisition and are supplied on demand like codex kin and trained like them too. deathwatch terminators are slightly cheaper then the more extreme shooters, and gain +2 BS

 

deathwing: the dark angels terminator is a thing of storied legend, he shows up, he shoots you and your friends from out of nowhere, he steps on your skull to find his next victims. the deathwing are storied warriors of dreaded violence. cold and calculated. the deathwing terminators remain as they are, but they have +2 BS base, and can deepstrike deploy closer to the enemy then what would normally be allowed as they are masters of the teleport assault (canonically). this also aids the already good deathwing knight in getting where he needs to go, ramming his mace in someones face. say we drop the deepstrike range down to 7" this makes weapons like the heavy flamer not so useless and easier to draw sight lines on a desired target as well as get rapid fire storm bolters

 

the oddballs: grey knights: this is where we need to step away from the scale and address the elephant. the grey knights need to be divided, i propose then that both are just left and right of center. cheaper so that grey knights can field a troops choice without stabbing themselves in the wrist for points costs on a troops choice, and so i can make a grey knight terminator a good shooty terminator with one free special weapon for every 10 man squad, and paladins get the reduced deepstrike distance from above which improves their close quarters output

 

we now exist on a scale, where each terminator is in his own way different from his peers and good at different things. then someone is always useful, if shooting is better then stabbing then the deathwing and deathwatch terminator have a chance to thrive, if its melee then the pendulum swings to wolves and blood angels. this is one of the strengths of the dreadnaught range. dreadnaughts exist on a scale so no matter the meta someone, on that list is useful as long as they can do the job well enough. and depending on where the line of acceptable exists, we can accurately judge if the core rules and codecies are allowing for a healthy balance of shooting and stabbing in a given edition.

 

i am of the opinion that if somehow nobody on the range is good, then the core rules are a failure, and need serious hard revision. the terminator should be succeeding not suffering and these changes would allow for them not only to become better from where they are now, but serve as a measuring tool to guage where one can focus his army, and how to improve the core rules in the future.

Edited December 31, 2019 by aura_enchanted

[Guest Triszin]

might be a dumb idea, but.

 

Crux terminus:

has both of the following

A. Halve the incoming AP value. (rounded up)

B. Reroll failed saves

Edited December 31, 2019 by Triszin

[Panzer]

i propose a radical new approach so follow along, i propose a scale system. basically we make each terminator different based on the book your in. the extremes being melee and shooting and the center is cost.

 

codex marines: codex marine terminators remains as they are but exist dead in the middle, they are the cheapest. the imperium rolls out to codex complaint chapters like its clockwork, they can afford to supply themselves with more parts and more bodies to fill boots then their deviant kin. a nice simple explanation.

 

melee:

 

wolves: ruthless, cunning, bold, and born from an ice world that turns men into walking tanks (and thats before the armor). each wolfguard terminator is a one man wrecking crew capable of slaying all before them with contemptuous ease. the wolves are cheaper in cost to field (more then codex but less then the extremes), no canon reason here but it makes them less automatically ignored in favour of thunderwolf cavalry, and they have ws2+

 

bloods angels: to our left we have the melee terminator and non better at it then the blood angels martial masters, and the terminators are elite of the elite, no foe can resist their dueling skills for long or their ruthless red thirst. they cost as they do now, but in addition to the ws2+ of the wolf terminator, they also have reduced deepstrike range, helping them get to the foe easier and to make them not objectively inferior to their competitor the sanguinary guard. i propose a 7" deployment thought we can debate the exact number in a seperate discussion.

 

shooty:

 

the deathwatch terminator is a prized warrior, and with his wide array of experiences he has learned to anticipate his enemies as well as weild his ranged weapons with extreme efficiency. the deathwatch while non compliant exist within the inquisition and are supplied on demand like codex kin and trained like them too. deathwatch terminators are slightly cheaper then the more extreme shooters, and gain +2 BS

 

deathwing: the dark angels terminator is a thing of storied legend, he shows up, he shoots you and your friends from out of nowhere, he steps on your skull to find his next victims. the deathwing are storied warriors of dreaded violence. cold and calculated. the deathwing terminators remain as they are, but they have +2 BS base, and can deepstrike deploy closer to the enemy then what would normally be allowed as they are masters of the teleport assault (canonically). this also aids the already good deathwing knight in getting where he needs to go, ramming his mace in someones face. say we drop the deepstrike range down to 7" this makes weapons like the heavy flamer not so useless and easier to draw sight lines on a desired target as well as get rapid fire storm bolters

 

the oddballs: grey knights: this is where we need to step away from the scale and address the elephant. the grey knights need to be divided, i propose then that both are just left and right of center. cheaper so that grey knights can field a troops choice without stabbing themselves in the wrist for points costs on a troops choice, and so i can make a grey knight terminator a good shooty terminator with one free special weapon for every 10 man squad, and paladins get the reduced deepstrike distance from above which improves their close quarters output

 

we now exist on a scale, where each terminator is in his own way different from his peers and good at different things. then someone is always useful, if shooting is better then stabbing then the deathwing and deathwatch terminator have a chance to thrive, if its melee then the pendulum swings to wolves and blood angels. this is one of the strengths of the dreadnaught range. dreadnaughts exist on a scale so no matter the meta someone, on that list is useful as long as they can do the job well enough. and depending on where the line of acceptable exists, we can accurately judge if the core rules and codecies are allowing for a healthy balance of shooting and stabbing in a given edition.

 

i am of the opinion that if somehow nobody on the range is good, then the core rules are a failure, and need serious hard revision. the terminator should be succeeding not suffering and these changes would allow for them not only to become better from where they are now, but serve as a measuring tool to guage where one can focus his army, and how to improve the core rules in the future.

 

Well first of all what you are proposing are chapter specific Terminator units. That's fine but misses the point of fixing the Terminator units we got.

 

Secondly:

"the imperium rolls out to codex complaint chapters like its clockwork, they can afford to supply themselves with more parts and more bodies to fill boots then their deviant kin. a nice simple explanation."

This would be a huge retcon. Every single Terminator armour is an ancient and invaluable relic. There's no such thing as a massproduced Terminator armour in 40k.

[Interrogator Stobz]

You just wait for Cawl and RG to ruin that lore for us sfP, you just wait.

[Panzer]

You just wait for Cawl and RG to ruin that lore for us sfP, you just wait.

So far they haven't ruined any lore for me, so yeah I'm still waiting. ;)

[Guest]

I remember reading years ago how the terminator armor powerplant wasn't capable of running all systems at 100%, so the armor constantly would drain one subsystem to power another. What if you did something like not advancing would increase your invuln save, or using heavy weapons halfed your advance etc etc.

[Brother Tyler]

This is the first time I've ventured into this discussion because this is simply the latest in a recurring series of discussions on an age-old topic. Previous efforts have failed.

What I don't see is a problem statement: What's wrong with the current tactical dreadnought armour rules?

(Note that I'm not in any way implying that there aren't problems. What I'm trying to get at is that it's practically impossible to come up with a solution to a problem that hasn't been quantified.)

As nine pages of discussion shows, we'll probably never reach a unanimous agreement on what's wrong or how to fix it, but if we can get the majority to agree on something, we might actually have a direction in which to move. Otherwise, all we're doing here is spinning our wheels.

So what's wrong with the current rules in terms of abilities, cost, drawbacks, and representation of the lore? And keep in mind that TDA is also worn by Ordo Malleus inquisitors, so a solution for "making terminator armour great again" can't be Adeptus Astartes-/Heretic Astartes-centric. The outcome has to work as a generic solution for terminator armour.

[Chaplain Elijah]

What about the opposite of Quantum Shielding :

 

Crux Terminatus

Each time this model fails a saving throw, roll a D6. If the result is more than the damage inflicted by that attack, the damage is ignored.

[Vermintide]

You just wait for Cawl and RG to ruin that lore for us sfP, you just wait.

Isn't that pretty much what Gravis is for? Terminator armour is still a revered ancient relic, Cawl's newer equivalent is stronger in a more brute force fashion (T5) but lacks the DAoT wizardry of Indomitus (2+, 5++).

 

Also, if I remember correctly, the rarity of Indomitus isn't because every single suit is an antique; it's just that out of all the forgeworlds, Mars is the only one with an STC for it.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Vermintide

[salixstar]

realistically terminators are not going to change this edition.

 

however it looks like 9th is round the corner if the rumors are to be believed

 

everyone expects 9th to be similar to AOS 2nd just a tidy up of the rules and i 99% agree however one thing GW did this year was release the new apocalypse and that had something other than D6 for the first time since i think 2nd (it used D12) and GW would love the oportunity to sell us more dice!

 

so what if save throws are moved over to d10's or d12's for all units. (either one or the other not both. want to keep the game as streamlined as possible(don't want you reaching for different dice every time you make a save throw))

 

this would allow far more options for save throw and amount of AP a weapon puts out

 

it would be a big change yes. but they've made big changes before.

 

and as for what would I make things. (pure gut feeling throwing out numbers would need to test all of this a lot and think about it even more)

 

use d10's for save throw.

no FNP saves on any unit (get rid of multiple save throws for the same unit that I feel bogs the game down)

could still get A reroll via special ability or command points

the max invul should be no higher than 4+ (maybe 3+) and that would only be on special chars or titan level vehicles

as for units

terminators 2+

power armour 3+

flak armour 9+

tau body armour 5+

etc etc

 

as for weapons.

lascannons -6AP

plasma -4AP

bolt -1AP or -2AP

etc etc.

 

anyway I in no way expect this to happen but I honestly feel the only way to "fix" units is to give the rule makers more options in granularity of save throw/AP

as it is we basically only have 5 levels of save throw (6 if you include no save throw) and after that you are adding special rules of all kinds which adds to complexity and the time a games takes and that is the enemy!

 

sorry for the rambling post

[Irbis]

 

Every single Terminator armour is an ancient and invaluable relic. There's no such thing as a massproduced Terminator armour in 40k.

 

Yeah, and that's why in fluff freshly founded chapters can field dozens of them, eh? Hell, even with rule of 3, you can field ~140 terminators from Codex SM alone, no matter how new your chapter is, so both fluff and rules disagree with you here.

 

Also, seeing how easily plasma/rail/las/wraith guns tear them to bits, if there really was no new production, SM would run out of them after 100 years, never mind 10000. If your suit can be critically damaged by not only common weapons, but also mere animals (see ambull and genestealer claws) you need to mass produce them to keep them deployed.

 

Especially seeing every single current Terminator model shows pristine, complete suit, none of the 'mixed look' of tactical squad, despite the latter using mass produced stuff. If anything, it's indication access to Terminator parts is even easier (which is logical, even if these are more expensive, you need less of them and can afford to stockpile some).

[Overwhelming Odds]

Has it ever been clarified that the WHOLE Terminator armor set is a relic and an invaluable relic, or just PARTS of it.  I have seen aircraft keep in operation with salvage, part swapping, and straight up shared parts from other working aircraft.  I would imagine the same applies here.  What parts of the *whole are actually not reproduceable/interchangable/one-offs?  I find it hard to believe that there is no understanding of the inner workings or the ability to conduct maintenance.   That would imply at least a basic understanding of the Terminator Armor.. 

 

V/r,

 

Dan

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Man why did you revive this train wreck ?!

[jaxom]

 

 

Every single Terminator armour is an ancient and invaluable relic. There's no such thing as a massproduced Terminator armour in 40k.

 

Yeah, and that's why in fluff freshly founded chapters can field dozens of them, eh? Hell, even with rule of 3, you can field ~140 terminators from Codex SM alone, no matter how new your chapter is, so both fluff and rules disagree with you here.

 

Also, seeing how easily plasma/rail/las/wraith guns tear them to bits, if there really was no new production, SM would run out of them after 100 years, never mind 10000. If your suit can be critically damaged by not only common weapons, but also mere animals (see ambull and genestealer claws) you need to mass produce them to keep them deployed.

 

Especially seeing every single current Terminator model shows pristine, complete suit, none of the 'mixed look' of tactical squad, despite the latter using mass produced stuff. If anything, it's indication access to Terminator parts is even easier (which is logical, even if these are more expensive, you need less of them and can afford to stockpile some).

 

 

Dozens, yes. In fluff, it is extremely unusual for a chapter to have enough Terminator armor available to regularly deploy one hundred suits of it. It's quite possible a chapter has enough to for it, but they have to husband their strength and many are reserved as replacements or cannibilized for parts. A few Forge Worlds, like Mars, make new suits of Indomitus pattern. 40k is a setting that handwaves logistics to a remarkable degree except when narratively convenient; I don't think it's the best way to approach either the lore or possible game mechanics. I think we don't see mixed suits because it's a relatively new development that there's more than three marks (Indomitus, Saturnine, and Aegis) for modeling to take advantage of. Alternatively, one could say they're among the most precious of Chapter resources and each suit has a dedicated support staff of artisans numbering in the hundreds.

 

Has it ever been clarified that the WHOLE Terminator armor set is a relic and an invaluable relic, or just PARTS of it.  I have seen aircraft keep in operation with salvage, part swapping, and straight up shared parts from other working aircraft.  I would imagine the same applies here.  What parts of the *whole are actually not reproduceable/interchangable/one-offs?  I find it hard to believe that there is no understanding of the inner workings or the ability to conduct maintenance.   That would imply at least a basic understanding of the Terminator Armor.. 

 

V/r,

 

Dan

 

Yes and yes. The impression given for most Astartes equipment is that, while all of it is invested with ritualistic meaning, certain parts are irreplaceable for most Chapters. For example, an Dreadnought assault cannon can be repaired, but Chapters have lost whole squads trying to retrieve a working sarcophagus from an otherwise ruined ironform. 

[Panzer]

 

 

Every single Terminator armour is an ancient and invaluable relic. There's no such thing as a massproduced Terminator armour in 40k.

 

Yeah, and that's why in fluff freshly founded chapters can field dozens of them, eh? Hell, even with rule of 3, you can field ~140 terminators from Codex SM alone, no matter how new your chapter is, so both fluff and rules disagree with you here.

 

Also, seeing how easily plasma/rail/las/wraith guns tear them to bits, if there really was no new production, SM would run out of them after 100 years, never mind 10000. If your suit can be critically damaged by not only common weapons, but also mere animals (see ambull and genestealer claws) you need to mass produce them to keep them deployed.

 

Especially seeing every single current Terminator model shows pristine, complete suit, none of the 'mixed look' of tactical squad, despite the latter using mass produced stuff. If anything, it's indication access to Terminator parts is even easier (which is logical, even if these are more expensive, you need less of them and can afford to stockpile some).

 

 

Do you seriously just try to argue official fluff with 1) rules, 2) logic and 3) models? Like seriously seriously? You have been in the hobby long enough to know that that's not how things work. 

I assume you are simply arguing for sake of arguing there right now and don't really have any relevant on topic arguments.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

No one is going to field 140 Terminators let alone even 20. Not even Deathwing.

[Gederas]

Do you seriously just try to argue official fluff with 1) rules, 2) logic and 3) models? Like seriously seriously? You have been in the hobby long enough to know that that's not how things work. 

I assume you are simply arguing for sake of arguing there right now and don't really have any relevant on topic arguments.

Have you seen some of Ibris' other posts? Yes, he's arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by Gederas

[Overwhelming Odds]

No one is going to field 140 Terminators let alone even 20. Not even Deathwing.

Wanna bet?!   Challenge accepted!  I field 20 of my Blood Angel Terminators regularly.  Please don't think I am "making a point" against your comments Black Blow Fly.  I am just being honest. No negativity implied or meant.  

 

Think of 20 Terminators just like a Knight Castellan, in both points and capability.  Only spread out over 4 squads.  You just have to play defensively and dare the enemy to come to you.  Stay out of line-of-sight and make them come earn an objective.  Objective placement is critical.  You need cover and line-of-sight blocking.  Then Terminators are a 1+ save (reduces effectiveness of AP significantly) or untargetable.  Assault is where you want your enemy to be with them.  Not shooting them with every gun in the army. I would be happy to make graphics to show how to use this strategy.  It is nasty!  People just want to be super aggressive out of reserves, massacre a unit, and wind up out in the open.  This only results in a "bad points trade".  This thread has already defined how bad they are at that and how weak against weapons fire they are.  Their mobility is TRASH.  Don't even try to use them that way.  They are unmovable objects when used properly. Solution: Make the enemy come to you and assault.  Then capitalize.  Just my 2 cents.

 

Picture for context. 

 

 

I love my Terminators and use over 20 in games often.  Stormravens are your friend with them as well.  I use three filled with Terminators when I am being SUPER aggressive.

 

V/r,

 

Dan

Edited January 12, 2020 by Overwhelming Odds

[aura_enchanted]

 

i propose a radical new approach so follow along, i propose a scale system. basically we make each terminator different based on the book your in. the extremes being melee and shooting and the center is cost.

 

codex marines: codex marine terminators remains as they are but exist dead in the middle, they are the cheapest. the imperium rolls out to codex complaint chapters like its clockwork, they can afford to supply themselves with more parts and more bodies to fill boots then their deviant kin. a nice simple explanation.

 

melee:

 

wolves: ruthless, cunning, bold, and born from an ice world that turns men into walking tanks (and thats before the armor). each wolfguard terminator is a one man wrecking crew capable of slaying all before them with contemptuous ease. the wolves are cheaper in cost to field (more then codex but less then the extremes), no canon reason here but it makes them less automatically ignored in favour of thunderwolf cavalry, and they have ws2+

 

bloods angels: to our left we have the melee terminator and non better at it then the blood angels martial masters, and the terminators are elite of the elite, no foe can resist their dueling skills for long or their ruthless red thirst. they cost as they do now, but in addition to the ws2+ of the wolf terminator, they also have reduced deepstrike range, helping them get to the foe easier and to make them not objectively inferior to their competitor the sanguinary guard. i propose a 7" deployment thought we can debate the exact number in a seperate discussion.

 

shooty:

 

the deathwatch terminator is a prized warrior, and with his wide array of experiences he has learned to anticipate his enemies as well as weild his ranged weapons with extreme efficiency. the deathwatch while non compliant exist within the inquisition and are supplied on demand like codex kin and trained like them too. deathwatch terminators are slightly cheaper then the more extreme shooters, and gain +2 BS

 

deathwing: the dark angels terminator is a thing of storied legend, he shows up, he shoots you and your friends from out of nowhere, he steps on your skull to find his next victims. the deathwing are storied warriors of dreaded violence. cold and calculated. the deathwing terminators remain as they are, but they have +2 BS base, and can deepstrike deploy closer to the enemy then what would normally be allowed as they are masters of the teleport assault (canonically). this also aids the already good deathwing knight in getting where he needs to go, ramming his mace in someones face. say we drop the deepstrike range down to 7" this makes weapons like the heavy flamer not so useless and easier to draw sight lines on a desired target as well as get rapid fire storm bolters

 

the oddballs: grey knights: this is where we need to step away from the scale and address the elephant. the grey knights need to be divided, i propose then that both are just left and right of center. cheaper so that grey knights can field a troops choice without stabbing themselves in the wrist for points costs on a troops choice, and so i can make a grey knight terminator a good shooty terminator with one free special weapon for every 10 man squad, and paladins get the reduced deepstrike distance from above which improves their close quarters output

 

we now exist on a scale, where each terminator is in his own way different from his peers and good at different things. then someone is always useful, if shooting is better then stabbing then the deathwing and deathwatch terminator have a chance to thrive, if its melee then the pendulum swings to wolves and blood angels. this is one of the strengths of the dreadnaught range. dreadnaughts exist on a scale so no matter the meta someone, on that list is useful as long as they can do the job well enough. and depending on where the line of acceptable exists, we can accurately judge if the core rules and codecies are allowing for a healthy balance of shooting and stabbing in a given edition.

 

i am of the opinion that if somehow nobody on the range is good, then the core rules are a failure, and need serious hard revision. the terminator should be succeeding not suffering and these changes would allow for them not only to become better from where they are now, but serve as a measuring tool to guage where one can focus his army, and how to improve the core rules in the future.

 

Well first of all what you are proposing are chapter specific Terminator units. That's fine but misses the point of fixing the Terminator units we got.

 

Secondly:

"the imperium rolls out to codex complaint chapters like its clockwork, they can afford to supply themselves with more parts and more bodies to fill boots then their deviant kin. a nice simple explanation."

This would be a huge retcon. Every single Terminator armour is an ancient and invaluable relic. There's no such thing as a massproduced Terminator armour in 40k.

 

while its true that they dont atm mass produce the armor, they still produce parts and some limited supplies are still made, terminator plate is still exceedingly rare, rare enough that marine chapters would dumpster dive a space hulk for new sets, especially if their a deviating chapter like the blood angels or wolves who are lucky to probably get a shipment of new stuff next decade. but to say it isnt made at all is a flat falsehood. 

[aura_enchanted]

 

No one is going to field 140 Terminators let alone even 20. Not even Deathwing.

Wanna bet?!   Challenge accepted!  I field 20 of my Blood Angel Terminators regularly.  Please don't think I am "making a point" against your comments Black Blow Fly.  I am just being honest. No negativity implied or meant.  

 

Think of 20 Terminators just like a Knight Castellan, in both points and capability.  Only spread out over 4 squads.  You just have to play defensively and dare the enemy to come to you.  Stay out of line-of-sight and make them come earn an objective.  Objective placement is critical.  You need cover and line-of-sight blocking.  Then Terminators are a 1+ save (reduces effectiveness of AP significantly) or untargetable.  Assault is where you want your enemy to be with them.  Not shooting them with every gun in the army. I would be happy to make graphics to show how to use this strategy.  It is nasty!  People just want to be super aggressive out of reserves, massacre a unit, and wind up out in the open.  This only results in a "bad points trade".  This thread has already defined how bad they are at that and how weak against weapons fire they are.  Their mobility is TRASH.  Don't even try to use them that way.  They are unmovable objects when used properly. Solution: Make the enemy come to you and assault.  Then capitalize.  Just my 2 cents.

 

Picture for context. 

 

 

 

I love my Terminators and use over 20 in games often.  Stormravens are your friend with them as well.  I use three filled with Terminators when I am being SUPER aggressive.

 

V/r,

 

Dan

 

we carry terminators in identical boxes, mines orange and silver :D

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++Unfortunately I think that this thread is done, please discuss tactics and fluff elsewhere.+++

 

Cheers.