Cults of the Legion: Cult of Time

[Prot]

This week we welcome discussion of the Cult of Time. 

 

I joked on my blog that this is the Cult of the Timex. (Anyone remember those ads? Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'?) See the Relic for details!

 

Psychic Power: Time Flux

Warp Charge: 5

 

 

If manifested, select one friendly CoT INFANTRY within 6". You can return 1 destroyed model back to play with all wounds remaining. If the UNMODIFIED test was a 9+, return up to D3 models instead.

 

 

 

If only we could take Obliterators, right? That would be abusive I suppose... kind of like restoring a dead Grav Centurion would be... wait a minute.... Anyway, the power is good, solid and there's not a lot of hidden value in it. This is straight up a fun power that works well with big squads, or multiple squads of multiwound models, especially Scarab Occult Terminators. I myself have not, in 6+ games, had more than one model come back, but it's possible. Just keep in mind that this can only happen on an unmodified test of 9+. I hear a few guru's online talking about manipulating the result for additional models.

 

It's good to see a nice, low cost Cult power. This makes it more plausible for your Scarab Occult Sorcs to use this instead of smite, since they should all know the ability anyway.

 

 

 

Warlord Trait: Immaterial Echo

 

 

If this warlord manifests a power with result of 9+, this Warlord can attempt to cast another power. (Up to once per phase).

 

 

 

Another play on the "9+" cast bonus. Except this time it can be a modified result. This is pretty liable to proc with Cabal in place, or simply re rolling 1's (via Magnus, etc). I've had it pop up once in a while, and usually it's a Smite that comes into play for 'free'. 

 

 

 

Sorcerous Arcana: Hourglass of Manat.

 

The first time this model with the Relic is destroyed at the end of the phase, return this model with D3 wounds remaining, as close as possible to its previous position. More than an inch away from enemy models.

 

 

This is powerful. I've used this on a Daemon Prince and when your opponent knows this, it can have a psychological effect on how they approach him. The reality is it can be tricky. That is to say dying in your opponent's shooting phase, could simply mean getting back up, and dying in his Assault Phase. 

 

As a side note, I've had it ruled in tournaments that IF this kind of power is on your warlord, then the first time he dies it does award your opponent Slay the Warlord. So please check with your local TO for this ruling.

 

 

 

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Overall Cult of Time is worth taking. There's some value in using this in certain lists over others, but again the sticky situation that is our "cult / detachment" restriction makes it tricky. Are you going to include your Scarab Occult in your CoT to heal them? Or are you going to include them in... Duplicity to hop them around the board? Tough call.

 

Unfortunately most of these Cults will have the same decision making challenges since the design is not all inclusive. Nevertheless the ability to take a small detachment with a Sorc HQ, and at least one squad of Scarab Occult seems valid. 

 

What do you think? Is there a better use of it? Better units to benefit from it? Or is this never going to see play in your lists? Let's hear what you think of CoT.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Prot

[Archaeinox]

Time Flux has value if you happen to have the unit cast the power on itself since you wont spend tons of resources to get a modified casting roll for better success. Rather, you will reactively use the surge stratagem so that if you do roll a 9 or higher on the dice, you can use it do get d3+1 models back. IF that happens, its value to big squads increases but if it does not, the power is better reserved for Scarabs and MSU rubric. In the absence of either, I suppose you could use it on the 9-10man rubric squads because lets face it: Their weakness is being trickled damage over the course of the game and yes it's nice to bring just 1 back. I'm not sure a character will be focused on casting Time Flux. The units need to cast it on themselves. It's cheap, and modifying the roll doesn't matter for the boosted part of the power... Also, it's not something absolutely critical and I do not expect the enemy to hold a single deny for it.

The big issue when considering Time is of course the limit of only using each power once per psychic phase which is why I wouldn't choose time over 1500pts. It starts to lose value as an entire detachment UNLESS you are taking it to make a Daemon Prince be able to come back. 

 

The warlord trait is a waste of a trait imo. Just use 1 CP and cast another power although I find myself using this in very specific situations. The question I would propose regarding this warlord trait is: Does using Cabalistic Ritual to proc the warlord trait ability replace spending the 1CP to use an extra power? Sure, it requires other TS psykers to be in range however not only would you more likely get to cast another power anyways, but the current power is boosted.. It's all so fiddly! This should have been a passive. Ok, enough of that because we all have very strong feelings on implementation and I am trying to avoid the complaining. 

 

I agree with you on pretty much everything above. I believe Cult of Time offers something for every casters and rubric units and I believe it is a viable Cult for a detachment in 1500pt or less games. I see myself rarely dedicating an entire Army to it, however, as we get bad returns across a large army due to what I mentioned earlier: The manifest limitation of Time Flux. Unlike duplicity's power, where you can make any unit teleport from wherever they are on the entire table, Time Flux requires us to have lost an Infantry model already. 

 

---

Conclusion: If it worked on Spawn, I would take more spawn and do a Time Brigade. As a player who does not run Daemon Princes, I will never use the relic because I am running cheap sorcerers and trying to bury them in safety. As such, I am not getting "full value" from the Cult and am less likely to build an army around it.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Prot]

Agreed on the spawn. That was my first thought when discovering CoT. It would have been nice. 

[GreenPlasma]

One thought I've had is that the Hourglass will let you snipe out enemy HQs far more aggressively. Since you're guaranteed to withstand retaliation in their shooting phase, there's no reason you can't dive past your own frontlines to try and remove lynchpin units like Chapter Masters.

[Archaeinox]

That sounds like inadvertently becoming an advocate for a Cult of Time patrol. Interesting

 

I might even consider a Warp Time exalted on disc with Gift of Chaos, Infernal Gaze and Firestorm to attempt that.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Heliomanes]

Agreed with all the above. Time is ALMOST good, but the movement from Duplicity will almost always be more important to the flow of the game than the spell from Cult of Time, and both target the same units.

If I tried to make it work, however, I would use it like this;

Cult of magic supreme command or batallion, daemon detachment for the locus of conjuration OR cult of change detachment for the Crest. Cult of Time Elite detachment, with at least one big unit of Scarab occult. If you have a daemon detachment, then they are led by a exalted sorcerer on disc or a daemon prince to gain access to the casting reroll bubble from the daemon detachment, if not then you can go for whatever.

The point would be to infiltrate 20 rubricae and to black matter crystal a big Scarab occult unit up midfield as quickly as possible to shield your characters. They don't need to do much damage, just outlast the opponent. Use the casting reroll from the Locus of Conjuration or the Crest to buff your casts of Time Flux as much as possible. None of them are modifiers, just rerolls or replacing a 1 with a 6. Stack weaver of fates, glamour of tzeentch and indomitable foes on them. Smite and astral blast like a madman.

[Archaeinox]

at least one big unit of Scarab occult. 

 

 

I am still waiting to try the 10man scarabs from Time out in a larger game where I'm certain they will take damage that Time Flux will attempt to repair.. I will report back.

[Prot]

Those are some great ideas guys. 

 

I love the idea of taking an Exalted Sorc on a disk (just for a smaller foot print), Warp-timing himself into the middle of a very hostile situation. The problem is you have to get there to support him or else he's just going to die again. :)

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Agreed on the spawn. That was my first thought when discovering CoT. It would have been nice. 

Speaking of Spawn, there could be some hilarious shenanigans with the Hourglass and the Flesh Change on an Infantry Warlord (Terminator, perhaps). You could end up with both your Warlord and his Spawn form on the table at once. Nothing says "Tzeentch" like a good ol' time paradox.

Edited January 28, 2020 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Zodd1888]

I like Time, I just find that the same list works as well with Duplicity. It really does seem like the question is whether or not you think you'll be able to raise extra Terminators and if you're going to keep the DMC for those Terminators to reposition after their initial drop. If the answer on these is yes I'll pick Time, otherwise I feel like Duplicity edges ahead.

[Archaeinox]

One thing's for sure- Scarabs will take casualties. As such, if I had the choice to teleport them elsewhere (they have 24" range and shouldnt be in combat... its not hard to think ahead and put them in an ok spot with a good bubble) or bring guys back, I'd choose bring guys back. 

 

If you run Double Battalion + a Supreme anyway, it might be worth it to make a battalion Time. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Heliomanes]

I don't think that's an entirely fair comparison. It's just that being able to teleport the surviving terminators somewhere and grab an objective wins games. Returning a few from the dead, but being anchored to the spot, seems like an unattractive option in comparison. Especially for those of us who play ITC missions.

And I disagree with the assessment that they shouldn't be in combat, and should be covered by a bubble. I think they are here to shield our characters with their durability. To be the bubble, not need an additional one. If someone charges this durable tarpit, then I'm usually pretty happy about it. It means the opponent will be locked in place while I smite them to pieces.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

I don't think that's an entirely fair comparison. It's just that being able to teleport the surviving terminators somewhere and grab an objective wins games. Returning a few from the dead, but being anchored to the spot, seems like an unattractive option in comparison. Especially for those of us who play ITC missions.

 

And I disagree with the assessment that they shouldn't be in combat, and should be covered by a bubble. I think they are here to shield our characters with their durability. To be the bubble, not need an additional one. If someone charges this durable tarpit, then I'm usually pretty happy about it. It means the opponent will be locked in place while I smite them to pieces.

I rather agree with this and it's why I'm 50/50 on time.

[GreenPlasma]

Those are some great ideas guys. 

 

I love the idea of taking an Exalted Sorc on a disk (just for a smaller foot print), Warp-timing himself into the middle of a very hostile situation. The problem is you have to get there to support him or else he's just going to die again.

Well don't forget Prot, we also have the DMC. So that's one way to handle an "emergency extract", though of course it won't work too well if the Sorcerer is on a disk!

[Archaeinox]

Let's face it the problem with Time is the implementation, bringing dudes back should have just been some sort of Rubric augmentation spell or something. The dang thing can't work on cultists or tzaangors anyways. Big oof.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Let's face it the problem with Time is the implementation, bringing dudes back should have just been some sort of Rubric augmentation spell or something. The dang thing can't work on cultists or tzaangors anyways. Big oof.

Yes. But we have to work with what we got.

As good as other cults are, I can see myself taking a cult of time battalion against armies with lots of AT. Bringing back rubrics will be more important then then just displacing 2 rubric marines after they get shot up.

[Archaeinox]

Yeah there are some tough decisions because of the incentive to take 9man units again (since I think secretly we all want to have reasons to do that) and I bet a Time battalion would serve best with MSU rubrics trickling some back each game for attrition consider the lower CA2019 costs of them

[Prot]

 

I don't think that's an entirely fair comparison. It's just that being able to teleport the surviving terminators somewhere and grab an objective wins games. Returning a few from the dead, but being anchored to the spot, seems like an unattractive option in comparison. Especially for those of us who play ITC missions.

 

And I disagree with the assessment that they shouldn't be in combat, and should be covered by a bubble. I think they are here to shield our characters with their durability. To be the bubble, not need an additional one. If someone charges this durable tarpit, then I'm usually pretty happy about it. It means the opponent will be locked in place while I smite them to pieces.

I rather agree with this and it's why I'm 50/50 on time.

 

 

My wife would be ecstatic if I was 50/50 on time. ;)

 

 

Let's face it the problem with Time is the implementation, bringing dudes back should have just been some sort of Rubric augmentation spell or something. The dang thing can't work on cultists or tzaangors anyways. Big oof.

 

As I've played a few games with Time, I'd have to agree. This feels more like a "Rubric" side rule... akin to Reanimation (necron) Protocols. The units just aren't nearly as survivable as they were in the dates of their 8th edition inception.

[BoomWolf]

Honestly, without a scarab ball, time is hard to justify.

With it though, it can be impressive.

The relic is great for an aggressive price to carry too.

A time warlord with high magistar, a winged prince magistar with the advance+charge+reroll trait and the hourglass, a block of Scarabs and a few rubric squads seems like a pretty good battalion

[SirVulkan]

Im going to give Time a try this weekend.  But i agree you have to have a 10 man SoT unit to make it work which I am fine with using.  Turn 1 DMC them up to mid, buff them, weather the storm, then turn 2 heal/ rez some SoT's.  Then Fusilade with them.  Just keeping them planted near mid to continue to blast things with Fusilade, Prescience and Votlw.  You have to have other distractions though to make this work.

[Archaeinox]

maybe one day I will find a proper prince model that I think looks appealing to include, that's my reason so far for not running them.

[Skerr]

That was my deal and how I struggled with double battalion. I wanted my SOTs to Jump but also wanted some sweet sweet return to board action with 2 wounds. Ultimately I decided on Jump though not ruling out giving Time a go in the future. Edited January 29, 2020 by Skerr

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

maybe one day I will find a proper prince model that I think looks appealing to include, that's my reason so far for not running them.

Conversions!

 

Back on topic. I might give time a run at our next game night.

[Archaeinox]

Ok so if you read my other post in Prophecy, I had a patrol of Time with Ahriman, 10 rubrics and 10 scarabs vs blood angels at 2000pts.

The Time rubrics used RR to deploy close and took heat off the Prophecy battalion. He pumped 50% of his shooting into this unit and charged the asp sorcerer and a rubric with his libby dread. I used Indomitable twice that turn and it saved my butt. I spent 2 cp to auto pass morale.

Next turn, i baited his Deny out with a multitude of powers and the final cast was Time Flux, bringing 1 rubric back. The dread wounded twice and i failed both invuls, leaving the asp sorc.

So it took enormous resources, but 10 guys were able to bring 1 guy back and tie a flying psychic dread up for about 4 rounds of combat as a direct result of having said guy come back.

The 10 terminators lost 3, and i brought 1 back.

My conclusion after devoting a battalion to Prophecy and this patrol to Time: i felt absolutely outmatched and missing Duplicity. I wont be using Time again, unless in the rarest of small teaching games. I am jaded and spoiled by Duplicity after seeing its enormous potential.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Skerr]

It's interesting, I dont disagree and I think I would rather jump than heal though often when my SOTs take casualties it can be minimal with an opponent dumping a lot of fire power and maybe taking out 1 or 2 in a squad of 7. To bring back 1 possibly 2 after a round like that is demoralizing to my opponent and the SOTs took heat off my other units. All part of then plan Edited February 6, 2020 by Skerr