Book 9 appears to be on U.S. soil

[Brofist]

I see a lot of people on Facebook claim dark angels got a ton of stuff and are super strong, while night lords sit at low-mid tier after buffs.

 

I'm wondering if they actually took the time to read through the various drawbacks or even just how much scions/other upgrade cost relative to their...low return.

100% my impression so far as well. NL are low key excellent and got a lot of buffs across the board.

 

e: excited for a 45min video from the Outer Circle about how NL are too weak and need a buff

Edited September 14, 2020 by Brofist

[StrangerOrders]

 

I see a lot of people on Facebook claim dark angels got a ton of stuff and are super strong, while night lords sit at low-mid tier after buffs.

 

I'm wondering if they actually took the time to read through the various drawbacks or even just how much scions/other upgrade cost relative to their...low return.

100% my impression so far as well. NL are low key excellent and got a lot of buffs across the board.

 

e: excited for a 45min video from the Outer Circle about how NL are too weak and need a buff

 

Thats odd, he has always characterized them as strong in his strategy videos. I admit that I am not particularly interested in his content that doesnt involve guides though.

 

Its weird to me that I was recommended that channel on B&C but I keep seeing comments like this pop up, is there some sort of drama I am not aware of?

 

On the actual subject though, I wonder which version of the Preceptor is the official one? I like to think I should trust the book more, but 275 for and removing the extra wound feels a but harsh. Granted they do have the Order bonuses but those are so pricy anyway. 

 

Idk, DA players in the digital-house, can I get an opinion on this? A bit curious, and if you think you'd slap a Wing on them as well since they are all characters (making them 300-400pts iirc)?

 

Conversely, the Companions feel really cheap to me for what they are and do. 

[depthcharge12]

I kind of laugh when people say DAs get a bunch and are top of the list...literally IW and RW got nerfed into the ground, acid bolters are trash now, and our other special units are pretty much unusable outside Cenobium (thats taking into account we are talking about competitive play here).

 

You can always tell who plays more games than others when they read things on paper. Other than Dreadwing (which has a transport tax) and maybe just maybe firewing, the DAs are trash. Our legion rules are garbage.

[StrangerOrders]

I kind of laugh when people say DAs get a bunch and are top of the list...literally IW and RW got nerfed into the ground, acid bolters are trash now, and our other special units are pretty much unusable outside Cenobium (thats taking into account we are talking about competitive play here).

 

You can always tell who plays more games than others when they read things on paper. Other than Dreadwing (which has a transport tax) and maybe just maybe firewing, the DAs are trash. Our legion rules are garbage.

Not to keep beating the same drum but there is a risk, which I myself fell victim to in the prelude I admit, to equating 'lots of stuff' with 'good stuff'. (I can only save my honor by the fact that I was at least wary enough to say that alot of Legions with minimal stuff absolutely wreck face).

 

On the face of it, you see alot of articles and think 'Wow, thats alot of stuff!' but if you look into the pages at all you do start whistling fairly quickly I think. 

 

Although I havent seen alot of sites calling them powerful (outside of this, my own admittedly limited 30k circles, 30kreddit and 1d4chan I admit to not being very 'plugged in'). I think at least some people are likely just hearing us who have it saying things and sort of running with them. 

 

'The DA have a ton of special equipment and alot of cool sounding units!' tends to be heard more than 'Wait! They are very pricy in the norm and have a weird set of caveats along with a host of very expensive but highly situation modifiers'. Thats my impression anyway, I am admittedly as savvy as a drunk baboon when it comes to things Im not actively playing myself and even then I tend to need to have lessons beaten into me.

 

It is sort of funny though, lorewise Crusade sort of sets the DA up as 'overwhelmingly powerful, only held back by their tendency to aim their vast arsenals at their own feet' while mechanically they feel like a train conductor frantically pulling dozens of esoteric levers made of solid gold in order to drive a scooter.

 

Its an odd disconnect.

 

But hey, as a devout follower of the memetically (and I think unfairly) bad Legion, I eagerly welcome you to await a promising Errata 

Edited September 14, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Ficinus]

I think Firewing has real gas in the engine with infiltrating Seekers in Land Raiders.  It's a lot of points to throw ten seekers with combi-plas/melta in a proteus with triple lascannons, but I think it'll pay off (especially with being able to Mark for Death the three units you want/need to kill).  That said, you're sort of wasting the points to buy Scions of the Firewing given the Hatred isn't super useful, the +1 to wound isn't super useful with Plasma (unless you're fighting Mech or Daemons or something), and the Rage buff isn't useful, but 5 Meltabombs to buy Infiltrate for Seekers and a Land Raider with triple las is definitely worth it.  And, heck, maybe those other buffs can help too sometimes.  The +1 to penetrate can really help Combi-Meltas if they're hitting something with Armoured Ceramite.

 

That said, if Ironwing Protocols is still a valid Rite of War, I'm going to keep running it until I get a new force ready.  It was so great, and I loved my list.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The only thing with firewing is that you can shut down the infiltrate with a really casual allied mechanicum detachment. Even augury scanners shut down the bonus for infiltrating close.

[Brofist]

 

 

I see a lot of people on Facebook claim dark angels got a ton of stuff and are super strong, while night lords sit at low-mid tier after buffs.

 

I'm wondering if they actually took the time to read through the various drawbacks or even just how much scions/other upgrade cost relative to their...low return.

100% my impression so far as well. NL are low key excellent and got a lot of buffs across the board.

 

e: excited for a 45min video from the Outer Circle about how NL are too weak and need a buff

 

Thats odd, he has always characterized them as strong in his strategy videos. I admit that I am not particularly interested in his content that doesnt involve guides though.

 

Its weird to me that I was recommended that channel on B&C but I keep seeing comments like this pop up, is there some sort of drama I am not aware of?

 

On the actual subject though, I wonder which version of the Preceptor is the official one? I like to think I should trust the book more, but 275 for and removing the extra wound feels a but harsh. Granted they do have the Order bonuses but those are so pricy anyway. 

 

Idk, DA players in the digital-house, can I get an opinion on this? A bit curious, and if you think you'd slap a Wing on them as well since they are all characters (making them 300-400pts iirc)?

 

Conversely, the Companions feel really cheap to me for what they are and do.

 

I personally haven't listened to the OC guys, but after one of them did a 20min youtube rant about the saber tank they've become a meme about fan overreactions to stuff

Edited September 14, 2020 by Brofist

[Marshal Rohr]

I’m starting to think Dark Angels are going to be strongest/most competitive taking vanilla rites and maximizing their unique wargear. Unless I’m mistaken PotL would allow you to take IC Knights/stasis grenade terminators and stasis grenade vets As troops, so you’ll almost always being going first in assault with a little luck. Interemptors are pricy and their Rite makes them even pricier but if you take some Assault pods you can erase elite terminator Death Stars. I’m sitting down to do a deeper dive today.

[Dagoth Ur]

I’m starting to think Dark Angels are going to be strongest/most competitive taking vanilla rites and maximizing their unique wargear. Unless I’m mistaken PotL would allow you to take IC Knights/stasis grenade terminators and stasis grenade vets As troops, so you’ll almost always being going first in assault with a little luck. Interemptors are pricy and their Rite makes them even pricier but if you take some Assault pods you can erase elite terminator Death Stars. I’m sitting down to do a deeper dive today.

This. Apart from the Dreadwing and Firewing rites of war, as well as the original Ironwing and Ravenwing protocols, I cannot see myself taking any of the actual legion specific rites of war. Hell, Potl or Primarchs Chosen serves me FAR better for a deathwing army than the actual DW vow.

[Astartes Consul]

Haven't seen much discussion of them, but what do people think of the new Night Lord RoWs? The all bike and Red Gauntlet ones look interesting to me but I have no idea how they would play out...

 

 

 

Does the Scion of the Dreadwing rule about difficult terrain work on dedicated transports a model / squad is in?

Asking because the Dreadwing RoW requires compulsory troop choices to be in transports...

I don't have my book yet so I don't know the exact wording, but I believe no. Basically means you have to be taking dozer blades on all your tanks lol

 

 

 

Does the Scion of the Dreadwing rule about difficult terrain work on dedicated transports a model / squad is in?
Asking because the Dreadwing RoW requires compulsory troop choices to be in transports...

I'm afraid it doesnt.

Re:Deathwing, their objective is *always* a drawback, since only the opponent can get points for controlling it (or for Simply preventing you from controlling it).
A 6"/3" +1A/FnP bubble offers very little to balance the fact it's forcing you to play very predictably, and can potentially give up to 18 vps to your opponent.

If actual objectives markers are in play, then DW gets interesting. But that's 50% of the time...

 

 

Thought this was the case, just wanted to check incase I'd missed something. I guess a Dozer Blade is a pretty standard upgrade for all transports so it isn't too much of a tax...

Edited September 14, 2020 by Astartes Consul

[b1soul]

Sounds like Sevatar got heavily buffed?

 

Does he still struggle against enemy characters with EW?

[SkimaskMohawk]

The new rites are interesting and bloody gauntlet and the bike one create some new list archetypes you can't replicate across most legions.

 

But imo they're currently overshadowed by terror assault, in both consideration and strength. It was already the premiere rite for night lords and one of the reasons why they're strong as a legion, and then got a slew of buffs as did the compulsory units that make it up.

 

@b1soul he struggles less than any other praetor that don't have EW of their own. Artificer armour really doesn't change much as every good character has ap2, but his ap 2 duelist's edge chain glaive certainly does.

 

With precog up you block 75% of most (sigismund and marduk being the exceptions) incoming damage. With aTfM up and precog he hits and wounds other marine characters 97% of the time each. It's pretty much the closest you can get to "guaranteed" mathematically.

Edited September 14, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk

[Aeternus]

Aye, it's the same situation as before vs EW where he'll typically lose, but now will with the ap2 and duelist's edge glaive still probably whittle them (sigismund) down a fair bit. I'll quickly do some basic calculations up now (assuming that Sev has precog up, but ignoring night fighting (since now Sev will always be I7 in a duel, so will be fighting first pretty much guaranteed)

 

I'm also assuming that master crafted reroll doesn't work alongside precog? so just one set of reroll per failed.

 

4 attacks with rerolls translates to 3 hits, 2.67 wounds, 1.34 wounds after saves. With aTfM 3.56ish hits, 3.46ish wounds, 1.73 wounds after saves.

 

(I feel like this against a WS7 opponent goes to show, if it doesn't have EW it's gonna be dying unless you're just unlucky)

 

Sig's attacks back are 2 hits back, 1.67 wounds, then the complicated part. I honestly wouldn't know how to do this part entirely correctly with all the rolls, so just gonna call Sev's save a 75% that gets rerolled on success, leading to 0.731ish unsaved wounds. Again, my maths here is defo wonky. Say Sevatar rolls a success on a die, Sigi forces a reroll, a reroll then that becomes a fail. Can sevatar then use the precog reroll on that failure? (only once mind, treating the forced 'reroll' from Sigi as a new roll? The poor die might have already been a fail, rerolled to a success, then forced reroll back to a fail...)

 

Long story short, over two rounds of combat statistically Sigi will eventually force an ID wound through and kill sevatar, but with sev striking first both times he'll probably leave Sigi with one wound remaining or so. But if it doesn't have EW? yeah that praetor's gonna disappear.

 

If it's a EW non sigi character, then I'd say it's actually likely sevatar wins now, since the opponent will be using sigismunds rolls or (more likely) worse (hitting on 4s, wounding on 2s, but without the rerolling invulns) while most other praetor's/characters wont have the extra wound sigismund does, letting sevatar kill them in two rounds or so. Sev's particular bane now, I think, is things dropping him to an initiative lower than his opponent (oh hello DA stasis grenades...)

[Ficinus]

The only thing with firewing is that you can shut down the infiltrate with a really casual allied mechanicum detachment. Even augury scanners shut down the bonus for infiltrating close.

 

The rage bonus for infiltrating within 17" doesn't really matter for Seekers since they have no real combat ability and are in a tank that doesn't have assault vehicle.  Mechanicum could be an issue, but they're not that common.  Even if they are, you still have a bunch of lascannons and seekers.

[Cris R]

 

 

I see a lot of people on Facebook claim dark angels got a ton of stuff and are super strong, while night lords sit at low-mid tier after buffs.

 

I'm wondering if they actually took the time to read through the various drawbacks or even just how much scions/other upgrade cost relative to their...low return.

Yeah it's definitely the opposite. The more I get my head around the slew of DA rules, the less excited I am. I miss the direction the Book VI rules had, where the wings were extremely restrictive but came with a slew of very strong, characterful buffs.

 

edit: just noticed something odd. The Knight Cenobium Preceptor got dropped to one wound...

Has anyone asked Forge World to clarify the last point? It’d be ridiculous if they dropped wounds for a pricey unit, especially when that’s not to the case for other Legion-specific terminators. Edited September 14, 2020 by Cris R

[Gederas]

I see a lot of people on Facebook claim dark angels got a ton of stuff and are super strong, while night lords sit at low-mid tier after buffs.

 

I'm wondering if they actually took the time to read through the various drawbacks or even just how much scions/other upgrade cost relative to their...low return.

Yeah it's definitely the opposite. The more I get my head around the slew of DA rules, the less excited I am. I miss the direction the Book VI rules had, where the wings were extremely restrictive but came with a slew of very strong, characterful buffs.

 

edit: just noticed something odd. The Knight Cenobium Preceptor got dropped to one wound...

Has anyone asked Forge World to clarify the last point? It’d be ridiculous if they dropped wounds for a pricey unit, especially when that’s not to the case for other Legion-specific terminators.

I'm gonna laugh if the Warhammer community reveal/Forge World download had the "proper" statline and the book has the old one and the book has to get an FAQ to fix that.

 

Because that'd be hilarious with the fact that the book has the "Cenobium can Overwatch despite being in Cataphractii armour" in their rules and Warhammer community reveal/Forge World download didn't have that part :lol:

Edited September 14, 2020 by Gederas

[SkimaskMohawk]

@aeternus back in the day there were rules that competing rerolls just canceled out, not sure if that's lost. And in terms of non-sigismund, non-primarch EW, how many run around with ranged initiative armies? I guess you could throw Garro or the Nemean reaver into a DA army?

 

Garro is defensively very strong, but his offense is pathetic against precog. On the charge he'd get 0.1192 rends and 0.069 armour saves through. He just can't do damage.

 

Nemean gets 0.5536 wounds through on the charge. This is similarly not enough to pose a threat.

 

Sevatar would then do 0.999 wounds a turn to garro (without aTfM) winning after 4 rounds (assuming he gets his last wound back).

 

Against the reaver he does 1.25 a turn back (without aTfM) winning after 3 rounds on average.

 

Aside from the infamous tribune, the only other contender would have to be a thousand sons praetor who gets at least endurance on biomancy, though of course iron arm and warp speed would help as well. Being able to throw at least 6 dice to shut down precog and then being able to get eternal warrior and hit back nets the win, especially if it's the fist+blade+digital weapon combo so you can just squeeze through a str 8.

 

Edit: I guess a lucky WB praetor who rolls endurance would also have a shot, though far less dice for deny.

Edited September 14, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk

[Cris R]

 

I see a lot of people on Facebook claim dark angels got a ton of stuff and are super strong, while night lords sit at low-mid tier after buffs.

 

I'm wondering if they actually took the time to read through the various drawbacks or even just how much scions/other upgrade cost relative to their...low return.

Yeah it's definitely the opposite. The more I get my head around the slew of DA rules, the less excited I am. I miss the direction the Book VI rules had, where the wings were extremely restrictive but came with a slew of very strong, characterful buffs.

 

edit: just noticed something odd. The Knight Cenobium Preceptor got dropped to one wound...

Has anyone asked Forge World to clarify the last point? It’d be ridiculous if they dropped wounds for a pricey unit, especially when that’s not to the case for other Legion-specific terminators.

I'm gonna laugh if the Warhammer community reveal/Forge World download had the "proper" statline and the book has the old one and the book has to get an FAQ to fix that.

 

Because that'd be hilarious with the fact that the book has the "Cenobium can Overwatch despite being in Cataphractii armour" in their rules and Warhammer community reveal/Forge World download didn't have that part

 

I'm laughing - with some pain - because the same thing happened to my beloved Deathwatch when GW published their Psychic Awakening "update" in White Dwarf with rules that were already FAQ'd before this issue came out. So I honestly would not be surprised if this happened.

 

I agree that Dark Angels benefit more from taking generic rites with fully kitted out units. I think the ability to avoid the Scion tax can free up more points for building better lists.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Cris R

[SkimaskMohawk]

I've been looking every day to see if the faqs have been updated. Still waiting on the malevolence fixes, as well as the DA problems.

[Marshal Rohr]

I’m convinced there is a new AoD on the way with updated Mechanicum, Legion, and Crusade Imperialis all coming.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I’m convinced there is a new AoD on the way with updated Mechanicum, Legion, and Crusade Imperialis all coming.

I mean I hope so. But we shouldn't need new releases to get faqs for units to have frag grenades y'know.

[WrathOfTheLion]

There has been a distinct lack of releases in 2020, even considering events, compared to 2019 even. The lots of talk, few kits and stuff that the Road to Thramas marketing had reminds me of PA in 40k.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

I’m convinced there is a new AoD on the way with updated Mechanicum, Legion, and Crusade Imperialis all coming.

I mean I hope so. But we shouldn't need new releases to get faqs for units to have frag grenades y'know.

Totally agree, it’s just this optimistically itchy feeling I have.

[Cris R]

I’m convinced there is a new AoD on the way with updated Mechanicum, Legion, and Crusade Imperialis all coming.

Another potential idea: Legion Approved for AoD once the Black Book series is done. I'm not sure whether FW and Specialist Games have the bandwidth to put something out every year - or would even consider taking this page from 40k and AoS - but that's another potential avenue for regularly updating the system until the next version of AoD drops. But we definitely need a new FAQ at minimum for sure.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Cris R

[Sulemain]

So are the old Ironwing and Ravenwing Protocol ROWs still in play?