What exactly is the Emperor? [SPOILERS]

[Xenith]

Figurative =/= literal.

 

ADB's 'Savage Weapons' describes the Astartes as 'weapons'. It's not literal.

 

As has been said, there's reference to the Emperor being on Earth during Roman times, so the rogue AI from the DAoT origin is unlikely.

 

I do like that theory. Kind of like Ultron, a rogue AI that only sees salvation for humanity through oppression. Hard for a machine to be psychic, though, it would need to incorporate organic parts, which then makes him an augmented human. 

[Karhedron]

The C'tan were overthrown 60 million years ago, which is about 54 million years before the first known hominids existed on Terra.  The Necrons overthrew the C'tan after the Old Ones were defeated, so the timing doesn't come close to working for the Old Ones to have had a hand in creating humanity.  Even if it was just one lone survivor of the Old Ones, creating humanity to fight an enemy that's been gone for 54 million years seems pretty pointless, especially when their earlier creations were still going strong.

The Old Ones were immortal and quite used to working on mind-boggling timescales. For them, a project that takes 60 million years to yield results simply means they need something else to do in the interim.

 

Also they won't have needed to have created humanity 60 million years ago. Simply planted the genetic seeds in the earliest mammals that would eventually lead to humanity. There could be genes spread throughout terrestrial biology that would lead to the development of psychic powers once a certain threshold of sentience was reached.

 

I also like the notion that the extinction of the dinosaurs coincided with the later stages of the War in Heaven. Was it an asteroid that killed the dinosaurs or a small Necron/Necrontyr force taking a casual pot-shot at an Old One petri dish?

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

 

The C'tan were overthrown 60 million years ago, which is about 54 million years before the first known hominids existed on Terra.  The Necrons overthrew the C'tan after the Old Ones were defeated, so the timing doesn't come close to working for the Old Ones to have had a hand in creating humanity.  Even if it was just one lone survivor of the Old Ones, creating humanity to fight an enemy that's been gone for 54 million years seems pretty pointless, especially when their earlier creations were still going strong.

The Old Ones were immortal and quite used to working on mind-boggling timescales. For them, a project that takes 60 million years to yield results simply means they need something else to do in the interim.

 

Also they won't have needed to have created humanity 60 million years ago. Simply planted the genetic seeds in the earliest mammals that would eventually lead to humanity. There could be genes spread throughout terrestrial biology that would lead to the development of psychic powers once a certain threshold of sentience was reached.

 

I also like the notion that the extinction of the dinosaurs coincided with the later stages of the War in Heaven. Was it an asteroid that killed the dinosaurs or a small Necron/Necrontyr force taking a casual pot-shot at an Old One petri dish?

 

 

Again if the Pariah gene was the product of Necron / C'tan meddling that would have needed to happen tens of millions of years ago as well, so I also see no issues with this timescale. I mean the Necrons went to hibernation around 60 million years ago and are only now waking up, they had plans on a timescale that reaches across tens of millions of years, why wouldn't the Old Ones?

 

As to what happened to the dinosaurs I always saw a connection there as well. Either it was the Necrons harvesting whatever advanced life remained on Terra at the time prior to going into hibernation and thus enabling the rise of the mammals or the other horrible cataclysmic events around the galaxy unleashed in the aftermath of the War in Heaven (such as enslaver plagues and proto-demonic invasions) led to the disaster which destroyed the dinosaurs. In either case the timeline matches a bit too well to be a complete coincidence.

[Tyriks]

 

The C'tan were overthrown 60 million years ago, which is about 54 million years before the first known hominids existed on Terra.  The Necrons overthrew the C'tan after the Old Ones were defeated, so the timing doesn't come close to working for the Old Ones to have had a hand in creating humanity.  Even if it was just one lone survivor of the Old Ones, creating humanity to fight an enemy that's been gone for 54 million years seems pretty pointless, especially when their earlier creations were still going strong.

The Old Ones were immortal and quite used to working on mind-boggling timescales. For them, a project that takes 60 million years to yield results simply means they need something else to do in the interim.

 

Also they won't have needed to have created humanity 60 million years ago. Simply planted the genetic seeds in the earliest mammals that would eventually lead to humanity. There could be genes spread throughout terrestrial biology that would lead to the development of psychic powers once a certain threshold of sentience was reached.

 

I also like the notion that the extinction of the dinosaurs coincided with the later stages of the War in Heaven. Was it an asteroid that killed the dinosaurs or a small Necron/Necrontyr force taking a casual pot-shot at an Old One petri dish?

 

But if they already have soldier races who are thriving, why use their last efforts as their race is going extinct to create another that will take 60 million years to be useful?  And dinosaurs would've been extinct for about 5 million years when the War in Heaven happened, so you'd have to assume the war lasted millions of years for that to be true.  Doesn't seem likely.

 

 

 

The C'tan were overthrown 60 million years ago, which is about 54 million years before the first known hominids existed on Terra.  The Necrons overthrew the C'tan after the Old Ones were defeated, so the timing doesn't come close to working for the Old Ones to have had a hand in creating humanity.  Even if it was just one lone survivor of the Old Ones, creating humanity to fight an enemy that's been gone for 54 million years seems pretty pointless, especially when their earlier creations were still going strong.

The Old Ones were immortal and quite used to working on mind-boggling timescales. For them, a project that takes 60 million years to yield results simply means they need something else to do in the interim.

 

Also they won't have needed to have created humanity 60 million years ago. Simply planted the genetic seeds in the earliest mammals that would eventually lead to humanity. There could be genes spread throughout terrestrial biology that would lead to the development of psychic powers once a certain threshold of sentience was reached.

 

I also like the notion that the extinction of the dinosaurs coincided with the later stages of the War in Heaven. Was it an asteroid that killed the dinosaurs or a small Necron/Necrontyr force taking a casual pot-shot at an Old One petri dish?

 

 

Again if the Pariah gene was the product of Necron / C'tan meddling that would have needed to happen tens of millions of years ago as well, so I also see no issues with this timescale. I mean the Necrons went to hibernation around 60 million years ago and are only now waking up, they had plans on a timescale that reaches across tens of millions of years, why wouldn't the Old Ones?

 

As to what happened to the dinosaurs I always saw a connection there as well. Either it was the Necrons harvesting whatever advanced life remained on Terra at the time prior to going into hibernation and thus enabling the rise of the mammals or the other horrible cataclysmic events around the galaxy unleashed in the aftermath of the War in Heaven (such as enslaver plagues and proto-demonic invasions) led to the disaster which destroyed the dinosaurs. In either case the timeline matches a bit too well to be a complete coincidence.

The link between pariahs and Necrons is hazy at best - it hasn't been mentioned since the 5th ed codex, I believe.  Furthermore, not all Necrons were in hibernation, the Praetorians were specifically said to be meddling with races as they developed (which is why there is an Egyptian theme to Necrons; the Egyptians stole it from us).  So if there is a link it could've been much more recent than anything the Old Ones would've done, since they're either extinct or gone from the galaxy.

 

EDIT: I'm not saying the War in Heaven definitely didn't last long enough to include the extinction of the dinosaurs, just saying it seems unlikely that GW didn't beat us over the head with that information if that was their intent.  

Edited April 30, 2020 by Nemesor Tyriks

[Scribe]

The near complete reinvention of the Necron's in 5th threw out a lot of good fluff. Unfortunate but just the way it is.

 

A true timeline of the War in Heaven, ancient history between the Eldar vs Necron, all that stuff, would be much appreciated.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

We have multiple pre-Imperium, pre-Dark Age, references to the same being.

There's no reliable uncorrupted pre-Dark Age of Technology references to anything, that's the point of the 'dark age'.

 

Yeah, with what we know of how the other Chaos Gods were created, ten millenia of worship should have resulted in something off-kilter happening in the Warp, albeit not probably on the same scale as tens of millions of years of violence, bloodshed and murder that power Khorne.

 

The only chaos god to have any form of definitively canonical origin is Slaanesh.

[Scribe]

 

 

We have multiple pre-Imperium, pre-Dark Age, references to the same being.

 

There's no reliable uncorrupted pre-Dark Age of Technology references to anything, that's the point of the 'dark age'.

 

 

If you wish to discount 'first hand' accounts of immortal beings (Perpetuals - Heresy Series) as well as 'Word of God' level text that has never been retconned and has indeed seen further reference (Realm of Chaos) that is absolutely within your options to do so.

 

I know where I stand, and until they retcon it, I see no reason to not accept it.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

 

Yeah, with what we know of how the other Chaos Gods were created, ten millenia of worship should have resulted in something off-kilter happening in the Warp, albeit not probably on the same scale as tens of millions of years of violence, bloodshed and murder that power Khorne.

 

The only chaos god to have any form of definitively canonical origin is Slaanesh.

 

 

I might be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the Immaterium became the hellscape we are so familiar with after all of the death and destruction that was unleashed during the War in Heaven as all the turmoil in the material world cast a reflection in there that lead to the birth of the demons and of the first three Chaos Gods, of which Khorne has been described as being the oldest one, followed by Tzeentch and Nurgle. This would have happened either at the tail end of the War in Heaven or in the immediate aftermath as the last of the Old Ones empire crumbled as their society was heavily dependent on Warp-based technology which suddenly became unreliable with the increased instability in the warp (although interestingly they seemed to have created the webway even though the Immaterium was stable at the time of their empire as it hadn't yet been twisted by the massive conflict that was to come).

 

Then again with the way time works in the warp I guess all of the Gods have always existed and never existed, acting as more or less universal constants so who can tell whether there ever was a time that Khorne had not been around? But if there ever was a moment when he wasn't around, I would think that it would have been in the distant past when the Immaterium wasn't such a horrible place.

[calgar101]

You are quite right Brother Captain Gilead. I haven't read any Chaos God lore in a long while but I thought humanity was always blamed for birthing Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch. Any one with the correct information please share.

 

For me I have always thought and liked the idea that the Emperor is just a really powerful and God like human. He is what humanity could evolve to albeit the rest would be on a lesser scale. Due to His powerful warp connection (normal humans have a little stream he has opened flood gates) he sees what Chaos is and can do, so he is opposed to them.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

 

We have multiple pre-Imperium, pre-Dark Age, references to the same being.

 

There's no reliable uncorrupted pre-Dark Age of Technology references to anything, that's the point of the 'dark age'.

 

 

If you wish to discount 'first hand' accounts of immortal beings (Perpetuals - Heresy Series) as well as 'Word of God' level text that has never been retconned and has indeed seen further reference (Realm of Chaos) that is absolutely within your options to do so.

 

I know where I stand, and until they retcon it, I see no reason to not accept it.

 

 

Not saying I completely agree with it, but again, these are all beings that have spent time with the Emperor, who has the ability to rewrite memories and implant suggestions. We know it's certainly a possibility, as Astarte wonders in Valdor "how far their own work was really His, conducted indirectly through mental suggestion or inspiration". We know he's capable of at least blanking out memories, given what happened on Molech.

When dealing with such a being, you can't reasonably assume "I remember this, so it happened." To be fair, I do still agree that he was born in Anatolia, etc. 

[Panzer]

They could also simply be lieing. There aren't a whole lot who lived before the DAoT and most of who did are on side of the Emperor and so don't really have a reason to not go with a potential lie.

[Vermintide]

Most of our in-universe sources on the subject are followers of the Imperial Creed, so of course it would be profoundly heretical for them to suggest the Emperor hasn't always been there, or to suggest that an outside power such as the Old Ones had any influence on his/humanity's origin.

 

My personal interpretation would be that he is (was) a profoundly powerful psyker, and not much more than that. Of course that doesn't mean to say he wasn't an immensely powerful being- We know that there is some connection between the warp, psychic power, and the existence of god-like entities after all. Wasn't it supposedly the hedonism of the Eldar that birthed Slaanesh? The Emperor could be a conduit of the human species' psychic footprint, or something along those lines.

What I do know is that most in-universe evidence is to be considered unreliable at best. The Imperium doesn't have the best reputation as far as the preservation of accurate historical information is concerned. Up until relatively recent lore developments, it would even have been plausible to suggest a conspiracy theory that the Emperor never existed at all, and is instead a fabrication in the vein of 1984's Big Brother.

[Scribe]

*shrug*

 

I am on record as absolutely hating the Perpetuals, but if they are so easily disregarded, then there is no point in even reading the Horus Heresy books, nor applying anything from the Fiction to the lore of the setting itself.

 

That is not a tenable position to me.

[Vermintide]

there is no point in even reading the Horus Heresy books

You got that right

 

There are a lot of contradictions in Black Library fiction, which is a big part of why I don't consider it "real lore" personally. I don't like the way a lot of it gives us too much information on things that were far more compelling when left mysterious, like the subject matter of this thread.

 

Fortunately, there's enough room in the setting for you to interpret things the way you like, in fact that's the best thing about 40K lore. Just like characters in the setting itself, you can be anywhere from a true believer, to the most Emperor-forsaken heretic, and that's why we can have such compelling discussions.

[Lord_Caerolion]

We're not disregarding them, we're just saying that "character X said Y" doesn't make something an ironclad fact. Memories get fuzzy, people remember stuff wrong, all-powerful psykers rewrite memory. There's a tendency to just assume that simply because a character has said something then it's absolutely got to be true, when that's just not how things work.

 

Astelan says the Lion never picked a side, but waited to see what way things went before making a choice, but we can see now that that isn't the case. Zso Sahaal and Talos portrayed a very "rose-tinted" view of the Night Lords history, which didn't really exist.

[Snazzy]

 

 

Yeah, with what we know of how the other Chaos Gods were created, ten millenia of worship should have resulted in something off-kilter happening in the Warp, albeit not probably on the same scale as tens of millions of years of violence, bloodshed and murder that power Khorne.

 

The only chaos god to have any form of definitively canonical origin is Slaanesh.

 

 

I might be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the Immaterium became the hellscape we are so familiar with after all of the death and destruction that was unleashed during the War in Heaven as all the turmoil in the material world cast a reflection in there that lead to the birth of the demons and of the first three Chaos Gods, of which Khorne has been described as being the oldest one, followed by Tzeentch and Nurgle. This would have happened either at the tail end of the War in Heaven or in the immediate aftermath as the last of the Old Ones empire crumbled as their society was heavily dependent on Warp-based technology which suddenly became unreliable with the increased instability in the warp (although interestingly they seemed to have created the webway even though the Immaterium was stable at the time of their empire as it hadn't yet been twisted by the massive conflict that was to come).

 

Then again with the way time works in the warp I guess all of the Gods have always existed and never existed, acting as more or less universal constants so who can tell whether there ever was a time that Khorne had not been around? But if there ever was a moment when he wasn't around, I would think that it would have been in the distant past when the Immaterium wasn't such a horrible place.

 

 

It sort of depends on the source.  It is heavily implied in the biography of Doombreed that Khorne came into existence at about the Middle Ages due to the bloodshed on Earth.  

[Scribe]

We're not disregarding them, we're just saying that "character X said Y" doesn't make something an ironclad fact. Memories get fuzzy, people remember stuff wrong, all-powerful psykers rewrite memory. There's a tendency to just assume that simply because a character has said something then it's absolutely got to be true, when that's just not how things work.

 

Astelan says the Lion never picked a side, but waited to see what way things went before making a choice, but we can see now that that isn't the case. Zso Sahaal and Talos portrayed a very "rose-tinted" view of the Night Lords history, which didn't really exist.

 

Yes, some of this is down to interpretation, sure.

 

Ol being one of the Argonauts, and knowing the Emperor before Humanity landed on the moon, puts the 'Dark Age Weapon' bit...into question.

 

The whole Perpetual side plot is either completely bunk (and by extension that ruin's vast swathes of the Heresy meta story) or its legit, and we can move forward.

 

There isnt much middle room on this one.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Was Oll one of the Argonauts? Sure. Did he know the Emperor back then? That's his memory as explained to us after having met the Emperor during the Unification, if I remember correctly (pun somewhat intended).

 

The Perpetuals are still a thing, this "memory tampering" theory doesn't change that. Oll is still as old as he claims, etc, it's just that the Emperor might not be. Again, I agree with your belief about how old he is, based on Realms of Chaos, etc, I am just of the opinion that any memory involving the Emperor is unreliable.

 

EDIT: Thinking about it further, we already know the Emperor has already claimed one mythos as his own, inserting himself into Mechanicus orthodoxy by claiming to be the Omnissiah when certain fringe elements claim that another being (whether C'Tan or not) was the real Omnissiah and the Emperor is an imposter/usurper. So we've also got (arguable) evidence of him finding existing legends and saying "oh yeah, that's totally me, I'm the Grand Whosit or whatever".

Edited May 1, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Karhedron]

EDIT: I'm not saying the War in Heaven definitely didn't last long enough to include the extinction of the dinosaurs, just saying it seems unlikely that GW didn't beat us over the head with that information if that was their intent.

I was under the impression that the War in Heaven really did last a long time. Remember that it went in several phases. There was the initial conflict between the Necrontyr and the Old Ones which the Necrontyr lost. Then a second wave where they came back with C'tan reinforcements. Then a wave where the Necrontyr were converted into the Necrons. Then the Eldar and Krork were developed. Then a Wave with the Old Ones on the back foot where they developed races like the Jokaero. Then the wave of conflict that saw the Necrons and C'tan breach the webway and wipe out the Old Ones as a major force. Then the conflict between the Necons and the C'tan which saw the C'tan shattered and the Necrons greatly diminished. Then the last dregs of conflict with the Eldar which persuaded the Necrons to go into hibernation until the Eldar were past their peak.

 

Given that all these phase apart from the first 2 were conducted between immortal opponents, I find it very easy to believe that the War in Heaven did indeed last for millions of years.

[Panzer]

 

We're not disregarding them, we're just saying that "character X said Y" doesn't make something an ironclad fact. Memories get fuzzy, people remember stuff wrong, all-powerful psykers rewrite memory. There's a tendency to just assume that simply because a character has said something then it's absolutely got to be true, when that's just not how things work.

 

Astelan says the Lion never picked a side, but waited to see what way things went before making a choice, but we can see now that that isn't the case. Zso Sahaal and Talos portrayed a very "rose-tinted" view of the Night Lords history, which didn't really exist.

 

Yes, some of this is down to interpretation, sure.

 

Ol being one of the Argonauts, and knowing the Emperor before Humanity landed on the moon, puts the 'Dark Age Weapon' bit...into question.

 

The whole Perpetual side plot is either completely bunk (and by extension that ruin's vast swathes of the Heresy meta story) or its legit, and we can move forward.

 

There isnt much middle room on this one.

 

 

"Everything is canon, nothing is necessarily true". It's always worth it to remember that statement from GW.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

 

We're not disregarding them, we're just saying that "character X said Y" doesn't make something an ironclad fact. Memories get fuzzy, people remember stuff wrong, all-powerful psykers rewrite memory. There's a tendency to just assume that simply because a character has said something then it's absolutely got to be true, when that's just not how things work.

 

Astelan says the Lion never picked a side, but waited to see what way things went before making a choice, but we can see now that that isn't the case. Zso Sahaal and Talos portrayed a very "rose-tinted" view of the Night Lords history, which didn't really exist.

Yes, some of this is down to interpretation, sure.

 

Ol being one of the Argonauts, and knowing the Emperor before Humanity landed on the moon, puts the 'Dark Age Weapon' bit...into question.

 

The whole Perpetual side plot is either completely bunk (and by extension that ruin's vast swathes of the Heresy meta story) or its legit, and we can move forward.

 

There isnt much middle room on this one.

"Everything is canon, nothing is necessarily true". It's always worth it to remember that statement from GW.

I personally find that to be an unacceptable stance for a company with an established IP, and Fiction production arm, to take.

 

Irs not a discussion for here though, we just went over this in a locked thread.

[Vermintide]

The concept of an unreliable narrator is a well established literary concept.

[Scribe]

Certainly. A concept introduced in some of the original texts for the entire setting mythos decades ago, still referenced, and never refuted...

 

I mean whatever, believe what you wish.

 

'there is no canon' strikes again. Great chat.

[Jings]

From what I've gathered, all the main theories about the Emperor could be true at once. Shamans, the first psykers, performed their ritual and created the man who would become the Emperor (and maybe the other perpetuals) - the most powerful psyker in human history. Later, during the discovery of the warp and psykers up to and during the GAoH, the humans at their peak were able detect and capture that being and begin to experiment/imprison him, as humans tend to do with what they don't understand. When the DaoT happened, he is weaponized and unleashed on their foes (the weapon theory) but after they took him out of his box, there was no one left in any position to put him back again (him being a weapon akin to the sun extinguishers and planet crackers). He was probably human at one point, but after all that and then some (Molech, Unification etc.) he was already well on his way to being a Warp god - as some called him - a deity in denial.

 

I do prefer the weapon left out of its box theory, I just can't reconsile that with all the established shaman stuff.

[Panzer]

Certainly. A concept introduced in some of the original texts for the entire setting mythos decades ago, still referenced, and never refuted...

 

I mean whatever, believe what you wish.

 

'there is no canon' strikes again. Great chat.

 

I mean, it's not our fault that you try to find a definite answer to something that's purposefully left vague. You can only blame yourself for that kind of frustration.