Lord Blackwood Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 It's an interesting theory for sure. Though it makes you wonder if that has anything to do with how he treats the primarchs. Weve had a lot of light put on how he views them not as sons but as little violence Pinocchios created to help him pacify the galaxy. Even calling them by numbers instead of names. A sentient weapon that makes weapons , that desprately wanna be human .... interesting stuff , no concrete statement here but thank you for the exercise in thought OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 We know he dates back to BC from MoM since he witnessed the first murder.He didn’t witness the first murder. Agreed, MoM even clarifies that the first murder that spawns Drach'nyen is not the murder of the Emperor's father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 Love discussions on the Emperor. Is he a weapon? Depends on the definition. A man born, trained in youth and then conditioned to perform a specific task without hesitation.. is he a weapon? Some might consider such. What the term "weapon" does imply is the Emperor's original purpose has evolved or changed over time. How we can't quite say but can speculate for fun. *** Here's a concept that might blow people's minds... We know thought and consciousness echoes through the warp and we know that widespread emotion and belief can create beings in the Warp that reflect the nature of said emotions and belief. There is certainly widespread belief and veneration in the Emperor so consider what that creates in the Warp... The questions this raises get interesting: - is there a creation in the Warp of a deity that reflects the belief system of the Imperium? - does the Emperor take on this power and utilise it? It was said that Guilliman found the Emperor to have raw power greater than ever before when he met him. - does the Emperor's mortal shell and incumbent position in the Golden Throne impinge upon The Emepror's capacity to tap into this energy? - if the above is true, does the energy go wild in the Warp, untamed by any being? Or is it free energy that all beings within the Warp can access without the Emperor claiming it? - lastly, can a deity of Imperium belief and worship exist within the Warp alongside the Emperor on the Golden Theone? If so, do they conflict? If not, what does that tell us about the Emperor's nature, as this is an exception to the rule, surely? *** I have my own ideas surrounding these questions, such as human emotions being too unfocused to be directed into a single being, but that does raise questions as to how come the worship of the Emperor has power and he has increased his power over 10,000 years? Interesting stuff. Karhedron and Spyros 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Gilead Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 Love discussions on the Emperor. Is he a weapon? Depends on the definition. A man born, trained in youth and then conditioned to perform a specific task without hesitation.. is he a weapon? Some might consider such. What the term "weapon" does imply is the Emperor's original purpose has evolved or changed over time. How we can't quite say but can speculate for fun. *** Here's a concept that might blow people's minds... We know thought and consciousness echoes through the warp and we know that widespread emotion and belief can create beings in the Warp that reflect the nature of said emotions and belief. There is certainly widespread belief and veneration in the Emperor so consider what that creates in the Warp... The questions this raises get interesting: - is there a creation in the Warp of a deity that reflects the belief system of the Imperium? - does the Emperor take on this power and utilise it? It was said that Guilliman found the Emperor to have raw power greater than ever before when he met him. - does the Emperor's mortal shell and incumbent position in the Golden Throne impinge upon The Emepror's capacity to tap into this energy? - if the above is true, does the energy go wild in the Warp, untamed by any being? Or is it free energy that all beings within the Warp can access without the Emperor claiming it? - lastly, can a deity of Imperium belief and worship exist within the Warp alongside the Emperor on the Golden Theone? If so, do they conflict? If not, what does that tell us about the Emperor's nature, as this is an exception to the rule, surely? *** I have my own ideas surrounding these questions, such as human emotions being too unfocused to be directed into a single being, but that does raise questions as to how come the worship of the Emperor has power and he has increased his power over 10,000 years? Interesting stuff. Speaking of the Emperor powering up I see three potential explanations: He was always this powerful, but hid it for one reason or another, He no longer has any need to do that since He doesn't really interact with normal humans at all All that belief in His divinity has powered His presence in the warp up over the ten millenia that the Ecclesiarchy has been preaching it We know that there are ritual sacrifices to the Emperor right now for Him to be able to maintain the Astronomican, depending on the source it is thousands of nascent psykers every day. If the ritual suicide of a couple dozen shamans was able to create the Emperor back in the distant past, what would the effects of a daily ritual sacrifice be over 10 millenia? I personally think it might be 2, but number 3 is a really intriguing possibility. Even if the Emperor was only able to get a smidge of that power whereas with the shamans of old it was all of the power, it would still mean that the Emperor would have gotten a massive power boost over the millenia. Special Officer Doofy and Captain Idaho 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 (edited) Its figurative... ^^ Drach'nyen can take many forms, and it only appears as a great blade in the hands of Abaddon because that is how the Warmaster chooses it to be. In truth, the sword has no real shape or size, at least nothing that could be understood by the mind of man. The weapon normally appears to be something akin to a two-handed sword, except that Abaddon wields the weapon with a single hand in conjunction with the Talon of Horus. The guard of the weapon tends to be golden in colour, with a leering face of a demon just above the handle. The ricasso of the weapon has spikes protruding from the sides as well as outward from the blade, and the blade itself is blue with red, tormented faces (the faces of souls it has devoured since being claimed by Abaddon) writhing across its surface. The origins of Drach'nyen are a mystery to most, unknown perhaps even to Abaddon himself. Daemons speak of the blade in fear, calling it the Thorn in Reality or the Shard of Madness. It is, however, known to be a weapon that has existed long before the rise of Mankind. Drach'nyen was born at the moment of the first murder - the first time a human killed another human outside of the need to survive. The name Drach'nyen, which can be translated as the End of Empires, is an approximation of the scream of the first murderer and that of the brother he murdered. The child who would become the Emperor was born in a Neolithic settlement of Anatolian herders and farmers of a normal mother and father, with normal brothers and sisters. His psychic power was so great that its energies altered His genome and physiology in the womb and rendered Him immortal so He would no longer need to reincarnate and could not be assaulted by the daemonic creatures of the Immaterium upon His death. As He grew older, His potent psychic powers began to manifest. One account of the Emperor's origin goes so far as to say that He had mortal brothers and sisters and claims that He was born in the 8th Millennium B.C. in a primitive Neolithic village along the banks of the Sakarya River in Anatolia. While he was still an adolescent, the Emperor's father was murdered by his uncle. While preparing his father's body for a primitive funeral ritual, he received a clairvoyant vision of his murder. Later, the boy who would become the Emperor calmly approached his uncle and stopped his heart with a slight use of His telekinetic psychic abilities, displaying neither sorrow nor malice for the deed. According to the Emperor Himself, this was the moment He realised that Humanity needed law, order, and the guidance of a ruler to reach its full potential. At some time after, He left His village for the "first city of Humanity," likely one of the Sumerian city-states of ancient Mesopotamia. For thirty-eight thousand Terran years, He wandered over the Earth and throughout Human history. He travelled among the different peoples of Mankind. While He had first been only an observer of Mankind's triumphs and follies, He soon began to help where He could, using His ancient wisdom to spread efficient government, crop management, animal husbandry, technology and peace. He used His influence carefully, at first adopting only the guise of a normal man, and without revealing His true nature. Edited May 2, 2020 by Black Blow Fly Pulse and Spyros 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INKS Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 The Emperor is a Weapon and always has been. He weaponized human kind. Even now on the Golden Throne his power continues to weaponize humans. Without him humanity would be lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 Love discussions on the Emperor. Is he a weapon? Depends on the definition. A man born, trained in youth and then conditioned to perform a specific task without hesitation.. is he a weapon? Some might consider such. What the term "weapon" does imply is the Emperor's original purpose has evolved or changed over time. How we can't quite say but can speculate for fun. *** Here's a concept that might blow people's minds... We know thought and consciousness echoes through the warp and we know that widespread emotion and belief can create beings in the Warp that reflect the nature of said emotions and belief. There is certainly widespread belief and veneration in the Emperor so consider what that creates in the Warp... The questions this raises get interesting: - is there a creation in the Warp of a deity that reflects the belief system of the Imperium? - does the Emperor take on this power and utilise it? It was said that Guilliman found the Emperor to have raw power greater than ever before when he met him. - does the Emperor's mortal shell and incumbent position in the Golden Throne impinge upon The Emepror's capacity to tap into this energy? - if the above is true, does the energy go wild in the Warp, untamed by any being? Or is it free energy that all beings within the Warp can access without the Emperor claiming it? - lastly, can a deity of Imperium belief and worship exist within the Warp alongside the Emperor on the Golden Theone? If so, do they conflict? If not, what does that tell us about the Emperor's nature, as this is an exception to the rule, surely? *** I have my own ideas surrounding these questions, such as human emotions being too unfocused to be directed into a single being, but that does raise questions as to how come the worship of the Emperor has power and he has increased his power over 10,000 years? Interesting stuff. I would say, logically speaking with our external knowledge of the Warp (that only a few authors really touch on well, thanks again ADB) that there can be no question that there is a growing warp power for the God-Emperor of the Imperium. A god of order, of stasis, celebration of ignorance, and hate for the 'other'. Would love a book that touches on it, and brings in the old Star Child lore, and that the Emperor on the Throne is an anchor, that prevents that new Warp God from being born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermintide Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 Here's an interesting lore tidbit pertaining to a topic earlier in the discussion. I believe it's from one of the HH rulebooks, took me a while to track it down: You have met them, yes, this Emperor's deadly new toys? His mutilated half-men and his soulless women, his gilded homunculi and blinded warp-speakers? Do you think them human then? Are they any less monstrous for a shape familiar to the eye? I think not. All this devilry of gene-craft and forbidden alchemy, do you think it is somehow clean simply because it is worked by your self-effacing godhead-in-denial? Because your glamour-cloaked tyrant says it is so? And what ancient broken vault or bloody laboratory-prison did he - most monstrous of all - spring from? Or do you yet believe his whispered lies of immortality and pre-genesis? You would condemn me for my sins of reason and invention, but it is my eyes which see clearly you wish to blind. I damn you; I damn you all to the future hell which you already run to embrace like a lover.' Testimony of Synecius Thorn Upon his trial and condemnation to death Court of the Emperor's Assizes- M30 mel_danes, Special Officer Doofy and Aramis K 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 And yet this is just the ravings of an individuals. Bits of lore like this are simply PoV opinions. For the same reason you can't trust a Daemon. Every word uttered by Daemons is typically a lie, and a half truth at best. BLACK BLΠFLY, Panzer and Scribe 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neverborn Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 (edited) For the same reason you can't trust a Daemon. Every word uttered by Daemons is typically a lie, and a half truth at best. I'd agree with you that you can't trust a Daemon, but in a lot of the fluff they don't usually tell out and out falsehoods. What's more typical is they tell a truth, but don't give context and the person interprets it incorrectly. I seem to remember Horus was show a terrible vision of the current status quo in 40k but was under the impression that this is what would happen if he did not act. There's also a very memorable story in codex Chaos Daemons. A revolting planet is besieged by the Dark Angels. The Governor makes a deal with the Changling to "End the Siege" (in exchange for his Daughters' souls). The Changling agrees and gives him a mysterious device and says the Governor need only activate it to end the siege. Seconds after he does the Deathwing appear in the room, summoned by what is actually a teleport homer, the Deathwing immediately execute to Governor - Ending the Seige. So yes you can't absolutely can't trust them, but just in a different way from a direct lie. That all said your point still holds weight i just wanted to mention that Daemons tend not to lie directly. Edited May 2, 2020 by Battle Brother Abderus Spyros 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 <skipped most of this thread after OP; will go back to read when I can> In short, this is what political scientists like to call "framing the issue." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neverborn Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 Yes, I probably went a bit off topic there. Though I don't expect and non-speculative answer is possible or will ever be. I've heard multiple theories, but I think GW like it this way, they seem to like ambiguity, partly as it gives them a lot of creative freedom. I think most of these have already been mentioned, the possibility of two emperors, the One on the Golden throne and a chaos Entity created by 10,000 of cumulative belief. The reincarnation of dozens and dozens if not hundreds of Human Shaman. An Old one, I've even heard somone try and justify he's a C'tan like entity. Two of these bring us back to the creation on Man, which leads on to what are humans in 40,000. Hope that puts us back on topic :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 The Emperor killed a Ctan imprisoned on Mars... is other way round . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 Guys this might sound insane.....(and I swear I am not being sarcastic), what if the Emperor of Mankind....is just the Emperor of Mankind. What I mean, why does Emperor need to be a psuedo Slaanash, or the result of 10,000 Shamans sacrificing themselves, a Man of Iron, or an Old One. Or otherwise; why cannot he just be the Emperor? Because he is Emperor of MANKIND, the God-Emperor. Yet he is our “Liege” yet he is befit of true humanity or atleast his portoyal in Horus Heresy is the absence of humanity. His Ability is so far beyond his Flock we simply cannot believe Him to be....human. So I think question of what is the Emperor has to be answered to Who is The Emperor. If Emperor is a concentration of Shamanic Souls, how is he befit of humanity actual humanity? If he is a DAoT Superweapon that maybe did time travel shannigans, why? Was he DAoT Last Weapon, or was he a perfect clone? Why would he care about humanity is it programming? All of this, and more, instead of just asking what is the Emperor, asking who is the Emperor is just as if not more important. Its why I find or dislike the idea of him being shamanic reincarnation because he is so inhuman. But the idea I like him being an actualized of humanity own humanityness. The Emperor in Heresy was last affected by the technology worshipping of DAoT and the Warlikeness of Terra. Its not perfect but seeming hin a colvused form of humanity at tje moment pysche has been my personal take. Through I personally, have always like the Emperor as The Emperor. Nothing more nothing less. And that God-Emperor of Mankind in 40k is the Result of the Emperor becoming the idealogical focus of people. But I tangented, honestly all this interesting to build on the question does what he is matter more than who he is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 I mean, He was seen to be a bloodthirsty tyrant, more than willing to sacrifice 99% of humanity if it 'saved' that final 1%. What he is, is just a piece of trivia, I do agree with you on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 He was what he had to be. His Imperium project was one of enlightenment, logic and progress. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neverborn Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 (edited) Guys this might sound insane.....(and I swear I am not being sarcastic), what if the Emperor of Mankind....is just the Emperor of Mankind. This is incredibly unlikely, i don't like to say an opinion is incorrect, but this probably is that one of a few times i'd lean towards that In terms of what he literally is, he's a fictional character in a IP designed to sell models within another fictional setting. In this context if you were looking for a character that is "just simply X", especially one as significant as the Emperor, in that context or within it's own setting, I won't say you won't find a single case but that's almost never the case. I believe it's been noted before that early 40k lore was heavily inspired by the Abrahamic religions , Emperor being God and Horus being the Devil. I won't go further but you don't have dig too much further to find similarities or change this to Bible class, though sometimes they switch the antagonists names round. Even if that wasn't the case there's enough "Documented" evidence around that he's not a natural man, even taking into account a extremely liberal interpretation of "natural" Edited May 3, 2020 by Battle Brother Abderus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 Abderus think misunderstanding my larger point. What he is (i.e his Origin) should not be more important than Who He is. And Who (The Character) he is should in a context of a story should inform What He is. Personal desires aside (I like the idea of normal perpatual enhanced by a DAoT Superweapon but I am minority I think). Answering who the Emperor is should in answer what the Emperor is. More importantly, on who: Is Emperor “Human”? (Human meaning flawed on a personal level, and governed by emotions etc). Like how he is portayed in Heresy I think he is not. Which is why I felt shamanic answer isn’t the answer to what he is personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neverborn Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 The major difference that I can think of off the top of my head, is he seems to have no need or desire or intimacy or companionship, though these aren't common seems in WH 40,000 so that could just be par for the course, in 40k but even under that pre-tense he's an extreme example. I did make make assumption that we were talking about "What he is" based on the topic's title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elzender Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 Regarding his detachment to individuals, it might come to a phenomenon often ascribed to inmortal or extremely long-lived characters (as compared to relatives/partners/etc): having lived hundreds of lifespans worth of years, establishing emotional bonds or relationships becomes either too emotionally taxing (as that character will outlive everyone around), or he/she becomes just detached to everyone as there is no reason in bonding with people which will only be there for a fraction of his/her life. I could even see it as a progressive evolution, with the Emperor becoming increasingly detached from normal people as he just outlives them continuously. Can you imagine the Emperor having biological offspring, only to see not only them but his grandsons and further descendants die of old age? Maybe he did care about individuals thousands of years ago, but when everyone around him eventually dies and nobody can really relate to him, I could see the Emperor deciding it is just not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 He was what he had to be. His Imperium project was one of enlightenment, logic and progress. Propaganda. As made clear many many times. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neverborn Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 Regarding his detachment to individuals, it might come to a phenomenon often ascribed to inmortal or extremely long-lived characters (as compared to relatives/partners/etc): having lived hundreds of lifespans worth of years, establishing emotional bonds or relationships becomes either too emotionally taxing (as that character will outlive everyone around), or he/she becomes just detached to everyone as there is no reason in bonding with people which will only be there for a fraction of his/her life. I could even see it as a progressive evolution, with the Emperor becoming increasingly detached from normal people as he just outlives them continuously. Can you imagine the Emperor having biological offspring, only to see not only them but his grandsons and further descendants die of old age? Maybe he did care about individuals thousands of years ago, but when everyone around him eventually dies and nobody can really relate to him, I could see the Emperor deciding it is just not worth it. From the readings i've seen i don't see the Emperor "wounded" in this way, it seems he's just has no need or desire for companionship of any kind. It's also not inevitable that his companions would die - at least from aging, as they are perpetuals in this universe. Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 Valdor, I believe it is, mentions that He was becoming more detached, and less 'human' during the Unity campaign. Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 Valdor, I believe it is, mentions that He was becoming more detached, and less 'human' during the Unity campaign. Yes and that detachment was some sort of "price". We don't know what it was payed for but the most obvious possibility is the bargain he apparently struck with the Chaos Gods to gain the power needed to create the Primarchs. Other possibilities exist such as controlling the Golden Throne (although Valdor suggests that is not operational yet, certainly it is not yet in the Imperial Dungeon). It could even be a side-effect of his extremely long life as others have suggested. However the fact that Oll Person seems to have lived a similar length of time without losing his humanity weighs against this. The other interesting question is "what is the Emperor becoming?". Is the Emperor becoming more powerful as Guilliman seems to think or is it just that he no longer bothers to hide it? In one of the Dark Imperium novels, Mortarion and Ku'gath discuss that the Emperor appears to be able to smooth the path of Guilliman's crusade fleets through the Warp and suggestion is that this is a recent phenomenon. It also seems that the Emperor is not interested in leaving the Golden Throne. He didn't ask Guilliman to pull the plug so he obviously thinks that staying there is better than whatever would happen if he truly died. This could be because of one of the following reasons: 1. Due to the wounds Horus inflicted, if he dies, it would be final with no perpetual resurrection or anything like that. 2. He might be able to regenerate or reincarnate but in the intervening time, daemons would flood Terra through the broken webway gate and that price is too high to pay. 3. He would ascend to some sort of godhood but doesn't want that. I lean towards option 3. One of the BL authors implied once that his tether to the material realm is actually one of his few remaining advantages over the Chaos Gods and he doesn't want to give that up. I don't think anything along these lines have appeared in print yet. Vermintide 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 Some of that is old Star Child fluff. The Corpse is a tether as you say, and it must 'die' to allow the Star Child to be born. Factions of the Inquisition fight to make/prevent, either from happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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