What exactly is the Emperor? [SPOILERS]

[Tyriks]

 

EDIT: I'm not saying the War in Heaven definitely didn't last long enough to include the extinction of the dinosaurs, just saying it seems unlikely that GW didn't beat us over the head with that information if that was their intent.

I was under the impression that the War in Heaven really did last a long time. Remember that it went in several phases. There was the initial conflict between the Necrontyr and the Old Ones which the Necrontyr lost. Then a second wave where they came back with C'tan reinforcements. Then a wave where the Necrontyr were converted into the Necrons. Then the Eldar and Krork were developed. Then a Wave with the Old Ones on the back foot where they developed races like the Jokaero. Then the wave of conflict that saw the Necrons and C'tan breach the webway and wipe out the Old Ones as a major force. Then the conflict between the Necons and the C'tan which saw the C'tan shattered and the Necrons greatly diminished. Then the last dregs of conflict with the Eldar which persuaded the Necrons to go into hibernation until the Eldar were past their peak.

 

Given that all these phase apart from the first 2 were conducted between immortal opponents, I find it very easy to believe that the War in Heaven did indeed last for millions of years.

 

As I said, the reason this is hard to believe is that it requires GW to have been subtle about describing a war lasting far longer than humanity has existed.  And I don't think there are that many distinct periods - many of them overlap and we don't know how long any of them were.  For example, according to the 5th ed codex, biotransference began as soon as they made an alliance with the C'tan, not after continuing the war.  It also says the first phase (Necrontyr fighting the Old Ones) lasted merely a few centuries.  Additionally, it has the Necrons breaching the webway shortly after the war was reignited.  And it tells us the Eldar "had fought alongside the Old Ones throughout the War in Heaven," which implies they were not a late addition but likely already existed when the war started.  

 

The language in the 3rd edition codex does lend itself much more to the War in Heaven being extremely long, but the more recent codices do not.  In the 3rd edition codex it talks about the war lasting long millennia and the C'tan using the galaxy as their playground of horror "for an age" after the Old Ones fell but before the young races became an actual threat to them.  But the 5th edition and later books suggest the younger races were already at significant strength when the Old Ones were beaten, and that the Necrons revolted against the C'tan as they were striking the final blow against the Old Ones so they did not have time to recover any strength.  It doesn't even indicate there was a separate war with the Eldar, it says after defeating the C'tan the Silent King knew they couldn't fight the Eldar and so went into hibernation to avoid it.  So, nothing about this indicates it lasting millions of years.

 

Personally, I think the story would work better if it did last that long, but nothing in the text indicates that.  The weaponization of the warp, for instance, I find makes a lot more sense if it was a long and drawn out war.  

[Scribe]

 

Certainly. A concept introduced in some of the original texts for the entire setting mythos decades ago, still referenced, and never refuted...

 

I mean whatever, believe what you wish.

 

'there is no canon' strikes again. Great chat.

 

I mean, it's not our fault that you try to find a definite answer to something that's purposefully left vague. You can only blame yourself for that kind of frustration. 

 

 

It is not vague. :D

[Ishagu]

He has memories from long before the dark age of technology, so his origin is not of that time.

 

The Emperor is more than human, that much is clear. A psyker so great perhaps it even affected his physical attributes. Perhaps he was strengthened during the dark age. Who knows?

 

It's intentionally vague, and in this case this is best for the setting.

[Panzer]

 

 

Certainly. A concept introduced in some of the original texts for the entire setting mythos decades ago, still referenced, and never refuted...

 

I mean whatever, believe what you wish.

 

'there is no canon' strikes again. Great chat.

 

I mean, it's not our fault that you try to find a definite answer to something that's purposefully left vague. You can only blame yourself for that kind of frustration. 

 

 

It is not vague.

 

 

It's not vague because you refuse to accept anything that doesn't fit into what you think is best. That's an entirely different issue. ;) 

[Scribe]

The text is clear, referenced and reinforced recently, and has not to date been retconned. That's near 30 years of fluff?

 

Believe whatever you wish.

 

He was born, on Earth, in Anatolia.

[Panzer]

The text is clear, referenced and reinforced recently, and has not to date been retconned. That's near 30 years of fluff?

 

Believe whatever you wish.

 

He was born, on Earth, in Anatolia.

 

Is what we got told by characters. Either you really don't understand that or it's just plain denial. Either way I don't think this is getting anywhere.

[Scribe]

Realm of Chaos isn't Characters, it's practically Word of God?

 

I mean either there is a setting or there isn't.

 

The Emperor has an origin, or we just make up whatever.

 

Not everything has to be a convoluted mess of contradiction and garbage editing under the cover of 'ooo maybe it's mysterious!'

[Panzer]

I can only quote myself as response to that.

 

 

Either you really don't understand that or it's just plain denial

[Scribe]

That people are attempting to make arguments that dont need to exist? That the Perpetuals have all been mind wiped by a Dark Age Weapon to believe that He existed since the dawn of human history?

 

That 'vague' has been injected into a minor factoid that didnt need it? :p

 

I suppose its just denial then.

[Vermintide]

Word of God doesn't mean much in a setting with as much conflicting information and overlapping fluff as 40k, honestly. That specific factoid might not have been retconned, but plenty of other bits in that book (and the majority of the rest of the early 90s books) have been by now.

Even if we go with the Anatolia, perpetual thing... We don't know if it's literally the same person, or some kind of reincarnation shenanigans. A mysterious figure who shows up throughout history. I mean, the religious symbolism is all there to make such connections obvious. Christ died, was reborn, ascended into heaven, etc...

The Emperor is Kane. KANE LIVES IN DEATH.

 

This is similar to my theory of how Doctor Who is James Bond.
 

So I refer back to my original answer- He's just a straight rip off from Michael Moorecock.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Vermintide

[RandyB]

Word of God doesn't mean much in a setting with as much conflicting information and overlapping fluff as 40k, honestly. That specific factoid might not have been retconned, but plenty of other bits in that book (and the majority of the rest of the early 90s books) have been by now.

 

Even if we go with the Anatolia, perpetual thing... We don't know if it's literally the same person, or some kind of reincarnation shenanigans. A mysterious figure who shows up throughout history. I mean, the religious symbolism is all there to make such connections obvious. Christ died, was reborn, ascended into heaven, etc...

 

The Emperor is Kane. KANE LIVES IN DEATH.

 

This is similar to my theory of how Doctor Who is James Bond.

 

So I refer back to my original answer- He's just a straight rip off from Michael Moorecock.

The entire 40K setting is a rip-off of everything - including Warhammer Fantasy itself!

 

And that's what makes it so awesome.

[Scribe]

Sure. You can believe whatever you want. He's an Eldar. Maybe an AI.

 

Who can say.

[Ishagu]

If anyone claims that a plot or story in 40k is 100% a certain way, they are typically wrong.

 

40k is built over 30 years of contradictions, unreliable narrators and opinions presented as facts. There is room for doubt and debate as to the Emperor's background.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Ishagu

[Scribe]

Like all Custodes being Warrior Scholars adept at diplomacy? 

[Ishagu]

Like all Custodes being Warrior Scholars adept at diplomacy?

Try harder lol

 

There's a difference between origin story and definining characteristics.

 

The Emperor's origin is up for debate. What isn't up for debate is that he was a powerful psychic.

 

Characteristics of factions, characters, etc can be clearly defined. Stories and plots can be lost to time.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Ishagu

[Scribe]

OK so 30 year old fluff, reinforced a number of times, by several different authors in recent years, never actually refuted = debatable, and in doubt.

 

A story for a single character, for a faction recently expanded on, released in the last few years, that doesnt mesh with your head canon = unforgivably flawed, because the whole faction is solidly defined.

 

At least you are consistent Ishagu.

[Ishagu]

Character traits and Character origins are two different things. Try to understand what I'm saying.

 

All I'm saying is that the Emperor's origin story isn't 100% concrete. I personally love the Shaman plot, but the fact that it hasn't been re-enforced over time makes me think it might not be the true story in the eyes of the GW lore writers.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Ishagu

[Scribe]

Yes, fine, I understand what you are saying. It doesnt make it a relevant distinction just because you say it.

 

 

Character traits and Character origins are two different things. Try to understand what I'm saying.

All I'm saying is that the Emperor's origin story isn't 100% concrete. I personally love the Shaman plot, but the fact that it hasn't been re-enforced over time makes me think it might not be the true story in the eyes of the GW lore writers.

 

EDIT: It has been reinforced...

 

EDIT the Second: Or was it just the Anatolia part...

Edited May 2, 2020 by Scribe

[Ishagu]

Yeah the Anatolia part has been mentioned, but the Shaman shared suicide hasn't been talked about in a long time.

[Marshal Rohr]

If we’re going with Word of God Abnett and ADB and Gav have said no one knows what he is.

[Scribe]

If we’re going with Word of God Abnett and ADB and Gav have said no one knows what he is.

 

I dont believe that is Word of God though. I thought Word of God was objective, definitive text regarding the setting.

 

'Khorne is a God of Chaos' is not up for debate, as it has been stated enough times by objective 'non-character' text, to be a given truth of the setting.

[Scribe]

Yeah the Anatolia part has been mentioned, but the Shaman shared suicide hasn't been talked about in a long time.

 

Fair.

 

I look at it like this.

 

We do have source's both ancient (Realms of Chaos) and recent (Master of Mankind, Saturnine) that place the Emperor from multiple views, on Earth, in Antiquity.

We have sources that have him traveling to Moloch, and becoming something even more than he was (Vengeful Spirit) during the Dark Age of Technology.

We have references to Oll, having been an Argonaught, and fighting at Verdun.

We have Erda, to collaborate a lot of what these 'pre-Dark Age' mentions would seem to imply.

 

Now, please understand.

 

1. I hate the Perpetual story line, deeply.

 

2. Given that, it STILL only makes sense if we subscribe to the Emperor having been present in Antiquity.

 

Does it have to be Shaman? No.

 

Does it make sense to say 'nah that isnt it' when confronted by both ancient lore (RoC) and this new arc that Abnett has decided to run with? Which makes MORE sense?

 

Thats all I have to say on it. People can and will believe what they wish.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We know he dates back to BC from MoM since he witnessed the first murder.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

What if the Emperor is closer to the sentient warp engine Tsagualsa that the Old Ones used to dig out the Webway? Once created (whether in the DAoT or by the ritual suicide or whatever else method could create such a being) He became something like a universal constant, the universe adjusting to Him having always been present. That would tidy up some of the weirdness with Him having been present to witness the first murder which would have had to happen even prior to the ritual suicide as well as His implied knowledge of things that would have happened prior to human existence. If He is out of sync with time, that would also provide for some of His ability to predict what is happening in the future as well as to manipulate things on a sociological level, such as the role He is implied to have had with planting the seeds that would grow to become the Machine Cult and His role in subduing the Dragon of Mars and imprisoning it on Mars.

[Marshal Rohr]

We know he dates back to BC from MoM since he witnessed the first murder.

He didn’t witness the first murder.