++Goonhammer Space Wolves Tactics++

[Valerian]

The good folks at Goonhammer have finally updated their very comprehensive Space Wolves Tactics article.  This is a must read for Space Wolves players.

 

I do think they undervalue Bjorn the Fell-handed, but otherwise, it is excellent analysis.

 

 

Val

[Lord Blackwood]

Nice , thank you for sharing this. 

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I agree that this is a very well written tactical, also with the exception of Bjorn being way undervalued imho, especially as they rate murderfang so highly. Mostly I find this odd because murderfang has no value in the early game where as Bjorn gives rerolls and strong shooting at the start so I feel like the 2 end up on about the same level when looking at points and impact. Bjorn is slower but tougher and more impactful early on, murderfang is cheaper but does little turn 1 and possibly turn 2 depending on what happens. I think their melee output is actually comparable, murderfang gets 2 more attacks (only if he charges) for a more consistent, but weaker on average, damage. Both reroll wound though Bjorn gives himself reroll 1 to hit. Both benefit from all the same stratgems. Plus bjorn does give a CP. It's just odd to me that they can value one over the other and as they really glossed over Bjorn they didnt really justify it one way or the other.

 

Otherwise their advice is very sensible. They may have convinced me to try out Eliminators again (they weren't working well for me pre PA, not sure if that was a me problem or a them problem though).

[Iain_Stormeyes]

I agree that this is a very well written tactical, also with the exception of Bjorn being way undervalued imho, especially as they rate murderfang so highly. Mostly I find this odd because murderfang has no value in the early game where as Bjorn gives rerolls and strong shooting at the start so I feel like the 2 end up on about the same level when looking at points and impact. Bjorn is slower but tougher and more impactful early on, murderfang is cheaper but does little turn 1 and possibly turn 2 depending on what happens. I think their melee output is actually comparable, murderfang gets 2 more attacks (only if he charges) for a more consistent, but weaker on average, damage. Both reroll wound though Bjorn gives himself reroll 1 to hit. Both benefit from all the same stratgems. Plus bjorn does give a CP. It's just odd to me that they can value one over the other and as they really glossed over Bjorn they didnt really justify it one way or the other.

 

Otherwise their advice is very sensible. They may have convinced me to try out Eliminators again (they weren't working well for me pre PA, not sure if that was a me problem or a them problem though).

 

I think their value of Murderfang is spot on, because we live in the age of Primaris.  S12 AP-3 flat 3 damage with 8 attacks on the charge is fantastic for killing Primaris.

[Kallas]

Bjorn is slower 

 

Bjorn is Mv8"!

 

Murderfang can advance turn one, which makes him a little faster, but he can't advance and still charge, so they're functionally around the same speed.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It was an interesting article, but it wasn't designed to be a unit review in my opinion. It's guide to build a competitive space wolf force, and it feels like they started with a list (intercessor impulsor rush) and judged units on how they fit into that archetype.

 

Which to be fair is a good approach for a guide like that. For example I think Bjorn is better than Murderfang but I think it's easier for a newer player to get the most out of Murderfang.

[Lord Blackwood]

I mean if your going to look at writing an article about being able to compete why would you not start with the competitive option and judge things based on if they are going to be competitive ? 

[Iain_Stormeyes]

I mean if your going to look at writing an article about being able to compete why would you not start with the competitive option and judge things based on if they are going to be competitive ? 

 

Because there might be other competitive options in the meta.  The impulsor rush list won a single GT pre-PA and pre-Marine nerfs.  We have no data on post-PA, post-nerf events, and assuming the meta will be the same is dangerous.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

 

 

I agree that this is a very well written tactical, also with the exception of Bjorn being way undervalued imho, especially as they rate murderfang so highly. Mostly I find this odd because murderfang has no value in the early game where as Bjorn gives rerolls and strong shooting at the start so I feel like the 2 end up on about the same level when looking at points and impact. Bjorn is slower but tougher and more impactful early on, murderfang is cheaper but does little turn 1 and possibly turn 2 depending on what happens. I think their melee output is actually comparable, murderfang gets 2 more attacks (only if he charges) for a more consistent, but weaker on average, damage. Both reroll wound though Bjorn gives himself reroll 1 to hit. Both benefit from all the same stratgems. Plus bjorn does give a CP. It's just odd to me that they can value one over the other and as they really glossed over Bjorn they didnt really justify it one way or the other.

 

Otherwise their advice is very sensible. They may have convinced me to try out Eliminators again (they weren't working well for me pre PA, not sure if that was a me problem or a them problem though).

I think their value of Murderfang is spot on, because we live in the age of Primaris. S12 AP-3 flat 3 damage with 8 attacks on the charge is fantastic for killing Primaris.

I wasn't saying murderfang is bad, I was saying to value him so highly and then dump on Bjorn, when they are quite similar, is a weird stance to take.

 

As to speed I was mostly referring to the reroll charges which I see as speed because it makes a turn 2 charge more reliable, something that may be s bit more tricky with bjorn.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

 

 

I agree that this is a very well written tactical, also with the exception of Bjorn being way undervalued imho, especially as they rate murderfang so highly. Mostly I find this odd because murderfang has no value in the early game where as Bjorn gives rerolls and strong shooting at the start so I feel like the 2 end up on about the same level when looking at points and impact. Bjorn is slower but tougher and more impactful early on, murderfang is cheaper but does little turn 1 and possibly turn 2 depending on what happens. I think their melee output is actually comparable, murderfang gets 2 more attacks (only if he charges) for a more consistent, but weaker on average, damage. Both reroll wound though Bjorn gives himself reroll 1 to hit. Both benefit from all the same stratgems. Plus bjorn does give a CP. It's just odd to me that they can value one over the other and as they really glossed over Bjorn they didnt really justify it one way or the other.

 

Otherwise their advice is very sensible. They may have convinced me to try out Eliminators again (they weren't working well for me pre PA, not sure if that was a me problem or a them problem though).

I think their value of Murderfang is spot on, because we live in the age of Primaris. S12 AP-3 flat 3 damage with 8 attacks on the charge is fantastic for killing Primaris.

Again I didnt say it was wrong to value murderfang, I was saying that to value him and not Bjorn is a misstep.

[Karhedron]

Generally a very useful article but I disagree with their assessment of using "Wolf's Eye" to reroll hits. Long Fangs get a built-in reroll of 1s to Hit anyway so it is better to use this stratagem to reroll wounds instead.

 

It also seems odd to value Blood Claws more than Grey Hunters when most players seem to feel the opposite unless explicitly building for an assault roll.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Karhedron

[Valerian]

It also seems odd to value Blood Claws more than Grey Hunters when most players seem to feel the opposite unless explicitly building for an assault roll.

 

In a vacuum Grey Hunters are better than Blood Claws, but Grey Hunters don't compete with Intercessors; in their mind, no one is ever going to take Grey Hunters.  So, Blood Claws get the nod for being a cheaper way to fill out a Battalion, and to get another unit that is more focused for melee.  

[Iain_Stormeyes]

Generally a very useful article but I disagree with their assessment of using "Wolf's Eye" to reroll hits. Long Fangs get a built-in reroll of 1s to Hit anyway so it is better to use this stratagem to reroll wounds instead.

 

It also seems odd to value Blood Claws more than Grey Hunters when most players seem to feel the opposite unless explicitly building for an assault roll.

 

As was stated above, this article was written with the Intercessor/Impulsor Rush list in mind.  And in that list Claws are better than Hunters, because you would always take Intercessors over Hunters.

[Cloudfive]

 

Bjorn is slower 

 

Bjorn is Mv8"!

 

Murderfang can advance turn one, which makes him a little faster, but he can't advance and still charge, so they're functionally around the same speed.

 

I've been toying with the idea of using Hero of the Chapter on Murderfang. He can't be my warlord, but does that restrict him from having a warlord trait? He's a named character without one so you could give him Saga of the Hunter to allow him to advance and charge.

[Vassakov]

I think it's overall a very solid article, but it's written by and for people who are playing to win first and build a Space Wolves army second. Whilst there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's not the philosophy of this forum which is I suspect where some of the tension is.

 

There's a couple of things that I think we all disagree on - personally I don't rate Murderfang at all, whereas Bjorn is and has always been a house in 8th Ed. I've tended to use him as a support character and a massive counterattacking threat. It's amazing how many people forget he can intervene 6" and popping him just behind the frontline with a decent screen can absolutely wreck opposing assault elements. I also think they are severely underrating Wulfen, especially with the new Litany that our Wolf Priests can bring & Transhuman Physiology. And they've neglected to mention our Chaplains pull double duty as Apothecaries. 

 

The other (massive) caveat to this is that due to... events... we don't really know how good our PA update actually is. I've seen a few Battle Reports on YouTube (mostly Tabletop Tactics) which seem to indicate we're very solid now, though still someway behind Iron Hands/Imperial Fists/Raven Guard. 

 

As far as the Grey Hunters v Intercessors argument goes... look, I love Grey Hunters but from a competitive standpoint Intercessors outclass them in almost every respect. The ability to take chainswords is negated by Intercessors base 2 attacks (3 if you want to spend a CP or two) and they are simply much more resilient with their 2 wounds. Blood Claws are interesting from a cost and melee strength argument, especially once the Assault Doctrine kicks in, but I feel like to make them good you need to bring a big squad, and at that stage I'd rather just go with alternative options.

 

The one thing I do want to try is Terminators again - they might be a bit more viable now, and I have about 30 lying around!

[Karhedron]

The one thing I do want to try is Terminators again - they might be a bit more viable now, and I have about 30 lying around!

I agree. 10 dudes with Combi Plas and "Keen Senses" and "Fury of Champions" means 20 overcharged plasma shots that cannot overheat plus 20 bolter shots, all hitting on 2s. Add in a Wolf Lord with Morkai bolts and they can reroll 1s to Hit and to Wound!

 

That will kill anything short of a Knight and seriously dent even a that. Put in a mix of Storm Shields and Chainfists and they can make a real mess in melee. Add a JP Wolf Priest with Canticle of Hate for a +2" charge and they have a decent chance of making the charge out of Reserves. You can stack almost unlimited buffs on them limited only by how many eggs you want to put in one basket.

[FabulousRex]

 

 

I mean if your going to look at writing an article about being able to compete why would you not start with the competitive option and judge things based on if they are going to be competitive ?

Because there might be other competitive options in the meta. The impulsor rush list won a single GT pre-PA and pre-Marine nerfs. We have no data on post-PA, post-nerf events, and assuming the meta will be the same is dangerous.

Exactly! I strongly believe there's more to Wolves than Impulsor rushing. We have a unique opportunity to be a premier Biard Control Infantry army, in my opinion.

 

Phobos units do great work supporting the space wolves due to our unique units, particularly Fenresian Wolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry. TWolves are excellent linesman that can run forward without cover and control the board. FWolves are a fast T4 screen that accepts all of our lovely buffs and have large bases to zone out Enemy deep strikers.

 

I've been running virtual games and having alot of success with a Horde Wolves approach that is surprisingly effective considering we can Outflank alot of our forces whenever we want depending on the mission and opponent. Raven Guard do the same trick but with Shooting, but we can really turn up the assault heat better while still having great support shooting and a far better Psychic phase than anyone gives us credit for.