BA and 9th Ed

[Charlo]

 

 

Transhuman Physiology being locked to Primaris now is a bit of a knock for Sanguinary Guard.

What does that do again?

Can only be wounded on a 4+.

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

Wrath of Baal has been the same it’s been since BoB, and it wasn’t used then...a nerf overall I feel. I do expect none of those changes to change again when the supplement drops, just point changes if at all. It’s not a good day to play Blood Angels, so back to painting it is...

Fair enough, I don't remember most of the relics in BoB. I haven't spent much time studying them. I've only gotten in a couple games with BA since it came out.

 

Why do you feel so down on them right now? I feel like BA are still in a pretty good place. I don't expect the datasheets or the listed relics to change, but I do expect to see new relics, warlord traits, psychic powers in the supplement when it comes out.

I think that most of the changes coupled with the points increases are nerfs after all, not buffs. Sang guard are DOA without the banner or the third wound, and I don’t mean Descent of Angels, because we don’t have that, either.

That supplement better be hot stuff to make up for that pdf...

 

Maybe you need to shift your expectations as to what this pdf is. It's to make Blood Angels usable until the supplement comes out. It isn't the supplement. This isn't a replacement for losing the codex, it's a bandaid to hold out another month. They kept some of the stuff from Blood of Baal and updated the datasheets and added a few unique stratagems. If the removed something for this pdf, guess what? That probably means it's coming in the supplement. 

[DistractionTacMarine]

Overall mixed feelings.

 

Good:

 

- Dante went up in cost but got better across the board, legitimately a good choice now. Believe we’ll get a new model when the supplement drops.

- Lemartes buffed with two litanies and keeps native charge rerolls for DC

- Astorath can use Mass of Doom more than once albeit at a high risk and his weapon is bonkers now with flat 3 damage

- DC Intercessors with assault loadout are going to be fantastic with 3 attacks base, prime candidate for reserves

- Libby Dread gets a lot better with Duty Eternal and additional attacks - went to 4 base instead of 3, and gets an extra attack with the halberd. The fist is lower damage but still flat 3 -3AP so it will be fine. Although I believe he did lose a point of WS.

- Sanguinary Guard take a 4-point cost decrease for sword and axe and a 1-point increase on fist PLUS an extra base attack

- Mephiston cost dropped into reasonable territory again

 

Bad

- cost increases almost across the board with our characters, with SP and Astorath hurting the most

- no 3W for sanguinary Guard, even with -1 to hit they are at major risk of being blown off the table

- Heirs ability nerfed

- Slight nerf on DC loadout with loss of bolter+melee weapon

- Lost a ton of good relics - Standard hurts the most, but Angel’s Wing, Hammer of Baal, and Veritas Vitae also gone

 

I’m guessing we will get new relics alongside our strats, warlord traits, and Sanguinary Discipline in the supplement, but so far ouch

[Subsided]

Minor things no one has mentioned;

 

Seth auto fights if within engagement range (compared to rolling a 6, and remember honor the chapter is assault intercessors only atm)

Litanies are now start of your command phase (compared to battle round)

Angelus boltguns are 18" range (compared to 12")

DC ThunderHammers are 15 points. Where as DC Intercessors are 20 points.

 

And.. mentioned.. but holy MESS is the that sanguinor's ability to drop in awesome.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Subsided

[Rhavien]

I'm happy with what I see here! So much cool new stuff. Didn't see the red grail change coming, but it's a cool one if you ask me. Dante has finally some rules that fit his fluff. Sang guard getting a 3rd attack is ace and finally their heirs of azkaellon is given to the whole squad and not only to models within 6" of your WL. Astorath is a beast now! Mass of doom kicking in, even if you roll a one is great stuff. And after all that we will get our supplement and there will be more stuff in it. I'm looking forward to write some fresh lists guys.

 

-edit-

 

Lemartes can chant two litanies

Edited October 5, 2020 by Rhavien

[BluejayJunior]

- Heirs ability nerfed

I disagree on this one. At least depending on what you run them with. It now actually stacks with Captains and Dante's reroll abilities. Instead of overriding a Capt's reroll 1s and doing nothing with Dante, it actually is still super useful ability. I'd rather hit on 2+ and reroll 1s than hit on 3+ and reroll misses. 

[Quixus]

Yay, Sanguinary Guard are CORE.

 

Concerning the Heirs of Azkhellon, how many warlords can you have in your army? "if that model’s unit is within 6" of any friendly Blood Angels Warlord models,"

 

Some melee weapons are really weird:

 

- Astorath's axe is just plain better than Dante's

 

- Only one attack with the Furioso halberd

 

- No benefit for having two Blood Talons/Furioso fists.

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

- No benefit for having two Blood Talons/Furioso fists.

I don't think they used to before anyway. And even if they did: 

DC dreads got an extra attack built into their profile.

Furioso dreads have an ability that gives them an extra attack with 2 fists or 2 talons. 

[Quixus]

 

 

 

- No benefit for having two Blood Talons/Furioso fists.

I don't think they used to before anyway. And even if they did: 

DC dreads got an extra attack built into their profile.

Furioso dreads have an ability that gives them an extra attack with 2 fists or 2 talons. 

 

Never mind then, I missed the ability in the datasheet.

 

[Blindhamster]

Yay, Sanguinary Guard are CORE.

 

Concerning the Heirs of Azkhellon, how many warlords can you have in your army? "if that model’s unit is within 6" of any friendly Blood Angels Warlord models,"

 

Some melee weapons are really weird:

 

- Astorath's axe is just plain better than Dante's

 

- Only one attack with the Furioso halberd

 

- No benefit for having two Blood Talons/Furioso fists.

Dante's Axe used to give him rerolls to wound vs characters and monsters iirc. so yeah i guess a little nerf there.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Blindhamster

[SnorriSnorrison]

Librarian Dreadnought is WS3+ now, which hurts quite a bit since his halberd is 1 attack with only S8 now...

 

All our special characters are locked into the terrible WL trait from C:SM, which means you strike after chargers. 

Blood Chalice special rule doesn't activate Savage Echoes as it seems, and the SP needs to be on the table in the command phase, which means the already overpriced (30 points!!) Jump pack does have a lot less use in deepstrike and that special rule is completely useless after turn 2.

 

I don't quite get how this will change much of BA on top tables, there'll be more Sangguard spam than before with the Sanguinor being an auto-include, fill the rest up with outriders and Eradicators and call it a day. Heirs of Azkaellon might be better-ish than before around captains or the Sang Ancient, but the latter went up by 40 points while losing his re-rolls of 1 in melee and the only banner we really needed. Angelus boltguns are 18" now, so yay.

 

Compare that to the insane buff DA got (it's literally insane) and I guess we can be lucky that this is only temporary.

[Brother Cruoris]

Am i reading Lemartes priest ability right. He can recite a litany even if it has already been recited?

So as long as another chaplain recites his litany first Lemartes can recite the same one but on another unit.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Am i reading Lemartes priest ability right. He can recite a litany even if it has already been recited?

So as long as another chaplain recites his litany first Lemartes can recite the same one but on another unit.

That is correct, a unit can only be affected by the same litany once though. And his litanies literally only inspire Death company, which is very fluffy. He can also recite two which was corrected by an errata after BoB came out. Nice that it's back at least...

[Karhedron]

So, if these are the final rules for SG, how do they stack up vs VanVets? Lets consider a SG with power fist compared to a VanVet with SS/PF and JP.

 

Points: SG 35 vs VV 33

Wounds: 2 all

Save: 2+ but VVs get 4++

Attacks: SG3 vs VV 2

Shooting: SG get angelus bolters

Offense: Both power fists

Special rules: SG get +1 near the Warlord. SG get -1 to Hit against them in melee

 

SG cost nearly 2 points more for an identical loadout but VanVets get that vital 4++. SG get more offense on both shooting and attacks. Vanvets can take a few cheap ablative bodies which is handy and have the option to take other weapons including THs or LCs for blending.

 

I thought that if SG failed to get a 3rd wound, Van Vets would be the automatic choice but it is actually closer than it looks IMHO.

[Jolemai]

Horses for courses

[keeblerartillery]

So, if these are the final rules for SG, how do they stack up vs VanVets? Lets consider a SG with power fist compared to a VanVet with SS/PF and JP.

 

Points: SG 35 vs VV 33

Wounds: 2 all

Save: 2+ but VVs get 4++

Attacks: SG3 vs VV 2

Shooting: SG get angelus bolters

Offense: Both power fists

Special rules: SG get +1 near the Warlord. SG get -1 to Hit against them in melee

 

SG cost nearly 2 points more for an identical loadout but VanVets get that vital 4++. SG get more offense on both shooting and attacks. Vanvets can take a few cheap ablative bodies which is handy and have the option to take other weapons including THs or LCs for blending.

 

I thought that if SG failed to get a 3rd wound, Van Vets would be the automatic choice but it is actually closer than it looks IMHO.

Completely agree! Honestly there might be a place for both - guard as an actual guard for Dante and VanVets unbuffed or lightly supported as a reserve force

[Black_Sky]

So this might seem a little silly, but.

 

Chief librarian dreadnought.

Psychic mastery warlord trait and Biomantic sarcophagus.

12" Null zone or Psychic fortress, with +1 to cast and reroll one dice.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Black_Sky

[The Unseen]

Ugh

No pre game DC move, no sanguinary discipline, no 5+++ banner, no descent of angels, and all our unique dreads got dropped to 6" move and lost rerolls with 2 blood fists.

Only positive changes I see at all are for sanguinary guard (swords axes are cheaper than fists now, went down to 30 pts each with those, and -1 to hit them in melee makes them decent, but the 3rd wound wouldve been nice) and Dante is no longer depressing, just over costed.

[Jolemai]

No more of that for now.

[Remtek]

Some great changes to characers, sanguinors new abilities are really cool! A bit sad that they turned sanguinary guard into a glass cannon unit.

[Majkhel]

Am I reading this correctly that they fixed the Heirs of Azkaellon rule a bit? Now it seems the unit needs to be within range of the Warlord not individual model, which would be good.

Also, I completely do not understand the DC Intercessors weapon options... Can I take a TH for Chainsword/Pistol guys?

Edited October 5, 2020 by Majkhel

[Indefragable]

<internet dropped and deleted my reply; will come back>

 

Overall I think it's a side grade.

 

Happiest bit for me is native -1 To Hit in Invuln for all "death mask" units and the Sanguinor's Heroic Intervention into combat. I'm coining it Angelic Intervention.  

 

 

Anyone know what the Speed of the Primarch WLT from the new Codex: Space Marines does? Just saw that all of our named characters in this FAQ must take that one. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Indefragable

[Jolemai]

Dead Man's Hand gets a buff to AP -3 :D

[Thoridon]

Also, I completely do not understand the DC Intercessors weapon options... Can I take a TH for Chainsword/Pistol guys?

The DC Intercessor sheet is a bit odd. It has 2 listings for the same thing (1 model with heavy bolt pistol may take a different pistol).

 

As it’s written it suggests they can only go pistol/chain sword for a melee squad, with 1 model able to change its pistol for a plasma or flame version. Thunder hammers are specified for models that don’t have a chain sword.

 

I’m assuming it’s a temporary restriction tied to the Indomitus models and will be changed in the supplement. Otherwise it’ll be weird that shooty intercessors could take a melee upgrade and the melee variant can’t.

[Spagunk]

I'm not pleased with these changes. I just think it's still missing the point of why BA players can struggle without resulting to tropes/cliche builds. 

I'm especially displeased that they are dropping bolters and chainswords on DC. They're in the dang box! I mean how many times have we been told "Option doesn't exist because it's not in the box, silly!" only to have a box option COMPLETELY removed as a viable choice?

 

Also, still a flat nerf to BA assault marines I.E. losing double special weapons.

 

I'm just...tired of this type of thing frankly. I feel like we don't have any true advocates for our army and get the "I don't know, lets try this!" behavior when it comes to how we should be running. I don't like the "bloody blood blood of the blood chosen" schtick but at least someone was trying to get under what BA are about. It's getting old and so am I.