BA and 9th Ed

[Blindhamster]

 

 

sensationalist title compared to whats actually said in it.

 

i dont really see how it /isn't/ blood angels-y though, incursors are a good forward melee unit, intercessors are a good staple battleline unit with the ability to be both fighty and a bit shooty, they work well for us and have for all of 8th as well as 9th. The impulsor is good as a transport for the intercessors short term or if you add bladeguard it works well as a transport for those, the aggressors actually seem pretty fitting for us, they're pretty solid and can fight, its true they aren't so mobile, although they'll average an 8" or 9" move each turn and can still shoot whilst doing so. Librarians are very fluffy for us, the only thing maybe more fluffy would have been a chaplain but i suspect that'll be what comes in the DA box.

 

If I didn't already have incursors, lots of intercessors, 2 impulsors and a few librarian models, i'd probably get it lol.

 

p.s. whilst outriders might be mechanically good, they aren't particularly blood-angely, i disagree completely that theyd have been a logical inclusion for a themed chapter set, assault intercessors possibly would have been a good fit, but honestly I think the two types of intercessors are fairly swings and roundabouts, especially as either can be painted black and be death company intercessors.

The title is fitting in that it is broadly accepted that primaris units lack what Blood Angels generally are about - speed and jump packs.

Obviously, there’s many a precedent of mechanised assault armies instead of pure JP armies, but let’s be honest - the majority of BA players would prefer if primaris had JP assault units.

 

In our current state, no box is better for BA than other SM, because that’s what the rules basically make us, worse SM.

 

Aggressors desperately need an advance and charge stratagem to make them interesting since they lost the double shot (fingers crossed for Eradicators next year!) and so do all primaris melee units. Impulsors don’t quite cut it as so-called assault vehicles and their probably deserved nerf this time around makes them very unappealing for units that need to get stuck in to make their points back.

 

It’s a good box for SM, no doubt. It might even be a nice box for all-primaris BA. However, it doesn’t scream Blood Angels at all and they could’ve just put Ultramarines on the cover and nobody would complain.

 

thats a rather large brush to paint people with. IMO, Blood Angels have always been better when we had better specialist assault troops but weren't necessarily just "jump packs, jump packs everywhere". Don't get me wrong, a jump pack unit would be nice, would it suddenly be the thing to use purely because it has a jump pack? no, not really... Rhino rush has actually been a BA thing since 3rd ed and typically we've done it more.

I don't agree with the assessment at all anyway (yours specifically), there have been a lot of posts about how good incursors are for us, they aren't QUITE as good in one way now they lost exploding 6s, but they did gain AP-1. Fact of the matter is, these boxes are designed to make a valid combat patrol, and by the look of it form the basis of a batallion. What exactly would be more logical than the Incursors or Intercessors? Assault Intercessors? Sure... if you want to be predictable with the entire army setup purely for assault.. At least the current one allows you the option to shoot a bit with them. Aggressors can still move, advance and shoot, which is what they should be doing anyway, they have power fists, you want them in melee, I do agree an advance and charge strat would be nice - maybe we'll get one! But they're still a solid melee option and resilient enough to get where they need to go too now thanks to not one, but two strats to make gravis tankier. Impulsors are still faster than other transports, they aren't as good as they were though, i think they were a bit heavy handed removing fly from the various primaris tanks AND nerfing the shield, but its stil not terrible.

 

Primaris Librarian - blood angels have a lot of librarians, more than other chapters lore wise, i bet we get improved powers like wolves did. Blood Angely? Check!

Incursors - A melee unit that can deploy aggressively and actively benefits from our chapter tactic. Blood Angely? Check!

Intercessors - A squad that can be painted black and ran as DC intercessors, or painted red to provide some standard support, but are also decent in a fight thanks to our chapter tactic. Blood Angely? Check!

Impulsor - fast moving transport vehicle... Blood Angely? Check (da red unz go fasta specifically is about our transports)!

Aggressors - a punchy melee unit that can shoot a bit too. Blood Angely? The most questionable, but I'd still say its at least a partial check, maybe 5 assault intercessors instead of the aggressors would have been more fitting, but they dont tend to put brand new unreleased kits in such boxes..

 

Really don't get the logic that BA are just worse SM, that's crazy talk, unless you mean that's what we are with essentially no supplement right now?

 

But yes, all the boxes are likely to be all primaris now it appears, so you wont see our unique un.. oh hang on, theres death company intercessors in there :D The only thing I can think, is that people wanted yet another box with the same terminator captain, baal predator and death company kit in...

[gkos]

As I have no Primaris transport, I will probably get a box, I think Aggressors will always have a place and a group of 6 should get anyones attention.

[smileyjim]

 

 

 

sensationalist title compared to whats actually said in it.

 

i dont really see how it /isn't/ blood angels-y though, incursors are a good forward melee unit, intercessors are a good staple battleline unit with the ability to be both fighty and a bit shooty, they work well for us and have for all of 8th as well as 9th. The impulsor is good as a transport for the intercessors short term or if you add bladeguard it works well as a transport for those, the aggressors actually seem pretty fitting for us, they're pretty solid and can fight, its true they aren't so mobile, although they'll average an 8" or 9" move each turn and can still shoot whilst doing so. Librarians are very fluffy for us, the only thing maybe more fluffy would have been a chaplain but i suspect that'll be what comes in the DA box.

 

If I didn't already have incursors, lots of intercessors, 2 impulsors and a few librarian models, i'd probably get it lol.

 

p.s. whilst outriders might be mechanically good, they aren't particularly blood-angely, i disagree completely that theyd have been a logical inclusion for a themed chapter set, assault intercessors possibly would have been a good fit, but honestly I think the two types of intercessors are fairly swings and roundabouts, especially as either can be painted black and be death company intercessors.

The title is fitting in that it is broadly accepted that primaris units lack what Blood Angels generally are about - speed and jump packs.

Obviously, there’s many a precedent of mechanised assault armies instead of pure JP armies, but let’s be honest - the majority of BA players would prefer if primaris had JP assault units.

 

In our current state, no box is better for BA than other SM, because that’s what the rules basically make us, worse SM.

 

Aggressors desperately need an advance and charge stratagem to make them interesting since they lost the double shot (fingers crossed for Eradicators next year!) and so do all primaris melee units. Impulsors don’t quite cut it as so-called assault vehicles and their probably deserved nerf this time around makes them very unappealing for units that need to get stuck in to make their points back.

 

It’s a good box for SM, no doubt. It might even be a nice box for all-primaris BA. However, it doesn’t scream Blood Angels at all and they could’ve just put Ultramarines on the cover and nobody would complain.

Worse SM? You can't be serious, BA are easily amongst the top SM chapters and that's with all our strats and psychic gone. You been using imperial fist rules by mistake?

[The Unseen]

Id like to know what you've been smoking that makes you so smiley if you think BA are anywhere near the best marines with our index rules.

We have basically nothing unique thats valuable save maybe the Sanguinor, I'm still not certain he's worth an HQ slot and the pts, but he makes your opponent in some match-ups play differently which can be very valuable.

Everything else we have, someone else can do it better, like white scars, who can hit as hard (if not harder) as we do in melee while also being loads faster.

 

But I don't understand the complaints about the box.

GW wasn't going to package a starter style box in 9th with anything other than Primaris marines, and of those, that's a solid BA start.

That plus an Indomitus box is getting really close to a decent 1k army

[Blindhamster]

BA seem to be roughly in the middle of the chapters atm. I dont see that changing with our supplement.

[Morticon]

BA seem to be roughly in the middle of the chapters atm. I dont see that changing with our supplement.

 

 

I think simply porting all the old movement strats and options (forlorn, wings, descent) would give us boost needed to be in the top bracket of marines.  Not above WS, and maybe not above Sallies and DA - but definitely  there. 

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

 

 

*snip*

*snip*

thats a rather large brush to paint people with. IMO, Blood Angels have always been better when we had better specialist assault troops but weren't necessarily just "jump packs, jump packs everywhere". Don't get me wrong, a jump pack unit would be nice, would it suddenly be the thing to use purely because it has a jump pack? no, not really... Rhino rush has actually been a BA thing since 3rd ed and typically we've done it more.

 

I don't agree with the assessment at all anyway (yours specifically), there have been a lot of posts about how good incursors are for us, they aren't QUITE as good in one way now they lost exploding 6s, but they did gain AP-1. Fact of the matter is, these boxes are designed to make a valid combat patrol, and by the look of it form the basis of a batallion. What exactly would be more logical than the Incursors or Intercessors? Assault Intercessors? Sure... if you want to be predictable with the entire army setup purely for assault.. At least the current one allows you the option to shoot a bit with them. Aggressors can still move, advance and shoot, which is what they should be doing anyway, they have power fists, you want them in melee, I do agree an advance and charge strat would be nice - maybe we'll get one! But they're still a solid melee option and resilient enough to get where they need to go too now thanks to not one, but two strats to make gravis tankier. Impulsors are still faster than other transports, they aren't as good as they were though, i think they were a bit heavy handed removing fly from the various primaris tanks AND nerfing the shield, but its stil not terrible.

 

Primaris Librarian - blood angels have a lot of librarians, more than other chapters lore wise, i bet we get improved powers like wolves did. Blood Angely? Check!

Incursors - A melee unit that can deploy aggressively and actively benefits from our chapter tactic. Blood Angely? Check!

Intercessors - A squad that can be painted black and ran as DC intercessors, or painted red to provide some standard support, but are also decent in a fight thanks to our chapter tactic. Blood Angely? Check!

Impulsor - fast moving transport vehicle... Blood Angely? Check (da red unz go fasta specifically is about our transports)!

Aggressors - a punchy melee unit that can shoot a bit too. Blood Angely? The most questionable, but I'd still say its at least a partial check, maybe 5 assault intercessors instead of the aggressors would have been more fitting, but they dont tend to put brand new unreleased kits in such boxes..

Really don't get the logic that BA are just worse SM, that's crazy talk, unless you mean that's what we are with essentially no supplement right now?

 

But yes, all the boxes are likely to be all primaris now it appears, so you wont see our unique un.. oh hang on, theres death company intercessors in there :D The only thing I can think, is that people wanted yet another box with the same terminator captain, baal predator and death company kit in...

  

 

True, it is a large brush. However, even in the 3rd edition Codex all our characters bar Mephiston and Corbulo had jump packs (well that’s half!) and our special units were death Company with JP and a JP veteran squad. That’s why I said our thing are JP - at the same time, I acknowledge the very valid rhino rush lists BA were able to bring at that time. In fact, I miss the old days as much as you possibly might. ;)

 

Yes, Incursors are not a bad troops choice for us, in fact they seem to be one of the better ones for BA comparing with the rest - as I said, it’s a great box for SM. It’s not a very specific box for BA in my opinion, though. Nothing in that box jumps out as being “ah, a classic BA army!” I do acknowledge the fact that this box is for new players using all-primaris units, who will receive 25 PL worth of miniatures. Fine, good price, I suppose!

 

My point being that primaris don’t fit BA just yet - primaris melee troops either footslog or ride impulsors, which despite the name are not assault vehicles the way we’d like to see it - maybe this could be a stratagem for 3 CP? Certainly would help so people would consider primaris melee troops! And DC intercessors, despite unique, are...inferior to Firstborn DC in every way but attacks, which don’t necessarily count if you can’t move fast or charge after an advance move.

 

Game-wise, it could be a trap for younger players. The most efficient way to bring melee units to bear in the 42nd millennium is, weirdly enough, a big jet pack strapped to a guy’s back. Or infiltration.

 

 

 

 

 

*snip*

*snip*

Worse SM? You can't be serious, BA are easily amongst the top SM chapters and that's with all our strats and psychic gone. You been using imperial fist rules by mistake?

Have you only been playing Sanguinary Guard and a Chief Apothecary maybe? :P I don’t see it at the moment, we’re pretty much outclassed by most other SM armies, which can all shoot better than us with their various buffs, and we don’t have the stratagems right now to bring a lot of our melee strength to bear. :(

[Blindhamster]

the +1 to wound in melee remains one of the strongest chapter tactics in the game tbh. the bonus to charge and advance is honestly just gravy, but actually helps things like aggressors, means their average move is 10 not 9 (because i'd always advance them to get them to where they can use those fists, it's honestly their main draw now).

 

I get the point about jump packs, i really do, but I don't think all jump pack armies are our thing outside of 5th ed ward codex.

 

Our shooting is fine, it may not be as bamf as /some/ other chapters but its as good as a lot of them because they don't all get good shooting buffs. And we're still marines which have good shooting either way.

 

Once we get strats etc, i think we'll be in a good place.

 

p.s. something to allow old school style "rhino rush" would be cool though. I think we'll be waiting a while longer for assault troops with jump packs for primaris.

 

p.p.s. you forgot tycho doesn't wear one either, in 3rd ed we had 3 without (corbs, tycho, mephiston) and 2 with (dante and lemartes), we now have 4 with (dante, lemartes, astorath, sanguinor) and 3/4 without (corbs, tycho, dc tycho, mephiston. So clearly from a character perspective we're pretty split. From a unit perspective, assault marines went back to fast attack, so our troop choices are foot sloggers or in transports same as any other chapter and IMO they made good choices for us there (they really, really arent trap options for troop choices), we no longer have more veteran assault marines than other people. We do have sanguinary guard, but lore wise it makes sense as their original purpose was to protect old wing boi himself. DC with jump packs are obviously our premier jump pack unit these days.

 

p.p.p.s. anyway yeah, as an all primaris box, it's themed well, i don't think primaris are somehow less BA than other stuff, i think the idea they are is a pretty dumb assertion, because primaris have more attacks, which means they benefit more from our chapter tactic, primaris troops make more sense for us than firstborn, the only unit area that firstborn make more sense in for us these days is arguably elites due to sanguinary guard, DC and vanguard who make as good or better use of our rules than anything else. So yeah, for a starter set, it was a good set for BA, and im personally glad it wasn't yet another repack of the same quite tired death company set honestly.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Blindhamster

[smileyjim]

Id like to know what you've been smoking that makes you so smiley if you think BA are anywhere near the best marines with our index rules.

We have basically nothing unique thats valuable save maybe the Sanguinor, I'm still not certain he's worth an HQ slot and the pts, but he makes your opponent in some match-ups play differently which can be very valuable.

Everything else we have, someone else can do it better, like white scars, who can hit as hard (if not harder) as we do in melee while also being loads faster.

 

But I don't understand the complaints about the box.

GW wasn't going to package a starter style box in 9th with anything other than Primaris marines, and of those, that's a solid BA start.

That plus an Indomitus box is getting really close to a decent 1k army

I'm not saying the best but in the top few. Yeah WS are above us, that plus to damage is crazy but so is our plus to wound. Where would you put us imperial fist level? Point is even they are still marines and really strong.

I wouldn't be fretting about how BA will be as even with our movement strats we aren't struggling. That's not to say I don't want that all back, but some things are a bit over the top. Fir example sang priest, the apothecary is already way over the top, giving him a jump pack and put a unit into assault doctrine? That's crazy. I know RAW he doesn't but that's obviously the intention and will be fixed. I'd argue just letting us give a standard apothecary a jump pack is epic.

 

Then we have things like sang ancient going up in points alot, but if we get our fnp banner back that's all worth it. Again that banner was silly good im not sure we get it back and I'd rather we got something a bit more fluffy instead.

 

Either way we have to see how it comes out in the wash but we aren't a weak faction within marines and don't forget marines are top of the game atm by far.

[Karhedron]

The Priest has replaced the Ancient for me to accompany SG. He only brings a 6+++ rather than the old 5+++ from the SoS but between Healing, res, and triggering the Assault Doctrine, he really is an awesome buffer for them. Plus giving him the Selfless Healer WLT causes Heirs of Azkellon to kick in (although any character with a WLT would obviously do).

[keeblerartillery]

The Priest has replaced the Ancient for me to accompany SG. He only brings a 6+++ rather than the old 5+++ from the SoS but between Healing, res, and triggering the Assault Doctrine, he really is an awesome buffer for them. Plus giving him the Selfless Healer WLT causes Heirs of Azkellon to kick in (although any character with a WLT would obviously do).

Being able to pick up a SG for free every turn is absolute money

[Hintzy]

Plus giving him the Selfless Healer WLT causes Heirs of Azkellon to kick in (although any character with a WLT would obviously do).

I don't think that's accurate. Assuming you're talking about using the stratagem to give out extra traits. The stratagem specifies that the character is only considered a warlord for the purposes of the trait, which I think clearly precludes him from being considered a warlord by Heirs.

 

I agree with the rest of your idea though. I think a SangPriest is likely to be my warlord as well, and follow my SG around. Oddly enough the SangAncient will likely follow my DC around, if I end up taking him/them at all.

[smileyjim]

Does giving him a wlt trigger heirs? Wouldn't he have to be made warlord not just have a trait?

 

It is very strong

[Shaezus]

Even without our supplement there's still a delightful dilemma in choosing who to accompany the sanguinary guard.

 

I'm looking at a chapter master smash captain. The hit bonus and reroll combined makes all the difference in those moments when the hit rolls are awful.

 

A Libby dread is in the list with null zone and veil of time. He's not tied to the SG but can be in range to buff them. Now that hitty SG unit has Reroll charges and in the big crunches they will make mush of things which usually have tough invul

 

I've an apothecary in the list but at this point another 120 points is producing diminishing returns on an already killy and fairly durable unit

 

Multiple squads of San guard seems to be a more effective and efficient option

 

edit: oh yeah and rites of war. have some cherry on that cake!

Edited November 4, 2020 by Shaezus

[Karhedron]

Does giving him a wlt trigger heirs? Wouldn't he have to be made warlord not just have a trait?

That is a good question. Here is the wording.

 

Heirs of Azkaellon: Each time a model in this unit makes

an attack, if that model’s unit is within 6" of any friendly

Blood Angels Warlord models, add 1 to that attack’s

hit roll

It says "any" rather than just "the". The implication to me is that there can be more than one. I agree it is not 100% clear though.

[Quixus]

It says "any" rather than just "the". The implication to me is that there can be more than one. I agree it is not 100% clear though.

This is for games with more than two players/armies. 9th has support for such games AFAIK (AFB right now). It does not imply that one army can have more than one warlord. This however means that the warlord of one army can buff the Sanguinary Guard of another army.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Quixus

[Indefragable]

There is a case for RAW to go either way, but I find it hard to believe that RAI they meant anything other than the Warlord, not any model with a WLT. 

[Quixus]

Which one? The rule says "any friendly", but of course having a warlord trait is not sufficient to  count as warlord. Many rules even say as much e.g.

that model is only regarded as your WARLORD for the purpose of that Warlord Trait.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Snorri gets it.

Assault intercessors instead of the normal intercessors would have probably made a big difference in regards to perception.

 

I'm planning to run at least one impulsor, is it worth giving up firepower for the shield dome?

A single hvy stubber and 2 storm bolters makes it more shooty than a rhino has ever been and kinda close to a razorback, so to me adding the shield dome seems to be the best option.

[Blindhamster]

But the assault intercessors aren't out. No way were any of the new kits going to appear in a set like this.

[Cleon]

My biggest plus is the split between the Intercessors and the Incursers/infiltrators - there's no way we weren't going to have some intercessors in there, but only having 5 and then 5 of another multi buildable kit increases the re-buyability.

[Blindhamster]

Have you lot seen the cool preview art for our codex?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Hamster would have been a fantastic way to release the assault intercessors if you ask me.

[Karhedron]

Hamster would have been a fantastic way to release the assault intercessors if you ask me.

But the discount would have been too big. GW don't usually put brand new units in box sets that offer a discount because they want people to buy the new kits at full price. Kits don't usually start appearing in discount bundles until they are at least a year old. I daresay you can probably find the odd exception but it is a fairly strong pattern.

 

Regarding, the Impulsor, I would always take the Shield Dome. The invulnerable save on a (fairly) cheap Transport is its main selling point. It gives you a much higher probability of delivering its cargo to their target. This is especially relevant with lots of melta-toting Eradicators about at the moment. The turret options in the Impulsor do not offer particularly impressive firepower. There are plenty of good units that can provide you with dakka so my advice is take the shield.

[Blindhamster]

I guess they could have thrown in a sprue of the indomitus ones, but people would have kicked up an even bigger fuss.