the BIG 9th edition room

[Brother Kraskor]

IN on Sword Brethren: https://youtu.be/cW7S6odxc1U

 

Don't know how I missed their exploding 6s strat. If you put chapter master re-rolls on them and stack fires of devotion and 6s auto-wound vow via fervent acclamation... could get very nasty!

[Medjugorje]

IN on Sword Brethren: https://youtu.be/cW7S6odxc1U

 

Don't know how I missed their exploding 6s strat. If you put chapter master re-rolls on them and stack fires of devotion and 6s auto-wound vow via fervent acclamation... could get very nasty!

there are some problems here. All "better" units have the opurtunity for chapter master rerolls and fires of devotion + auto-wound via stratagem too.

 

And even more so if you think how the game works when you want that units buffed. Where does 

they have to be before the buffs, how to hide.... BGV are very tough, even VV have 2+4++ (in comparison to 3+5++ by SB) so they can better survive against shooting before they come into their position to charge.

[Brother Kraskor]

 

IN on Sword Brethren: https://youtu.be/cW7S6odxc1U

 

Don't know how I missed their exploding 6s strat. If you put chapter master re-rolls on them and stack fires of devotion and 6s auto-wound vow via fervent acclamation... could get very nasty!

there are some problems here. All "better" units have the opurtunity for chapter master rerolls and fires of devotion + auto-wound via stratagem too.

 

And even more so if you think how the game works when you want that units buffed. Where does 

they have to be before the buffs, how to hide.... BGV are very tough, even VV have 2+4++ (in comparison to 3+5++ by SB) so they can better survive against shooting before they come into their position to charge.

 

 

 

If you watch the video you will see they agree BGV are a better tanky/anchor unit. But in terms of damage output they lose out big time, especially with the increasing prevalence of -1D. Furthermore with being able to use cover, 5++, and a 5+++ they're still pretty tanky themselves. And the auto-wound isn't a stratagem, it's a Vow that you can apply with Fervent Acclamation. The stratagem is exploding 6s to hit, and that is Sword Brethren only.

[KnightofSigismund]

I’m happy to see that video, I bought two boxes of sword brethren and was going to run them anyway no matter even if blade guard or van vets are “better”. Templars are my treat myself army after playing the fists supplement in all its glory for so long. I feel better on it though because I’m a competitive player at heart but I always saw the sword brethren like they were intended to be used as aggressive unit.

[Tiger9gamer]

I’m happy to see that video, I bought two boxes of sword brethren and was going to run them anyway no matter even if blade guard or van vets are “better”. Templars are my treat myself army after playing the fists supplement in all its glory for so long. I feel better on it though because I’m a competitive player at heart but I always saw the sword brethren like they were intended to be used as aggressive unit.

yea, thinking about it now I kinda wanna try it out. I already pretty much commited to a bladeguard vet conversion with my box, but the next box of Sword brothers is going to be x4 chainswords and a pair of mordred lightning claws or a thunder hammer.

[Marshal Arthur]

I'm thrilled to see that they're viable. On a related note, I'm playing a crusade with some friends right now and I was wondering if any of you have found fun combinations of battle honors to really amp up the sword brethren? The fact we don't have a single champion in the squad gives us a lot of flexibility with weapon enhancements and battle traits and I think we can come up with some fun buffs.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

 

IN on Sword Brethren:

 

Don't know how I missed their exploding 6s strat. If you put chapter master re-rolls on them and stack fires of devotion and 6s auto-wound vow via fervent acclamation... could get very nasty!

there are some problems here. All "better" units have the opurtunity for chapter master rerolls and fires of devotion + auto-wound via stratagem too.

 

And even more so if you think how the game works when you want that units buffed. Where does

they have to be before the buffs, how to hide.... BGV are very tough, even VV have 2+4++ (in comparison to 3+5++ by SB) so they can better survive against shooting before they come into their position to charge.

 

If you watch the video you will see they agree BGV are a better tanky/anchor unit. But in terms of damage output they lose out big time, especially with the increasing prevalence of -1D. Furthermore with being able to use cover, 5++, and a 5+++ they're still pretty tanky themselves. And the auto-wound isn't a stratagem, it's a Vow that you can apply with Fervent Acclamation. The stratagem is exploding 6s to hit, and that is Sword Brethren only.

I disagree with Medjugorje a lot, but the point of better units simply benefitting more from the overlapping buffs isn't one of those areas.

 

Comparing sword brethren to bgv, you get 5 w/ chainswords for 110; about the same as 3 bgv.

 

With acclamation, chapter master rerolls and their special strat you get:

 

-25 attacks

-Assuming fishing for 6s, 7.75 6s and 8.75 hits.

-defensive profiles are super dependant, but marines are the most popular faction so let's assume that; 12.13 successful wounds and 6.06 failed saves.

-expect 6.5 dead marines from your combo'd sword brethren.

 

BGV with devotion and chapter master rerolls against the same marines get:

 

-16 attacks

-14 hits

-9.3 wounds; 7.7 failed armour. More dead marines, save a cp.

 

Obviously bgv are meant to chop up marines and other semi-elite infantry, while sword brethren skew more towards chaf clearing. The latter easily outperform vs. all the one wound infantry. They also manage to do better against most vehicles, and any vehicle/unit that has inbuilt damage reduction.

 

But all that being said, the bgv are far more durable. The invul and native 2+ are huge, as it's in effect for both shooting and melee. The extra wound basically gives them wound parity, while losing output less per failed wound than the sword brethren. It also goes to my next point that the bgv are very likely to receive Champion of the Feast due to their bulky nature, which obviously super charges the unit.

 

It's a real choice of offense vs defense. The bgv are more capable of going out on their own, while the sword brethren really need to stay close to the buff bubble. But then, you realise that Primaris crusaders fill their role of chainsword blender a lot better, and have more bodies to back it up.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

IN on Sword Brethren: https://youtu.be/cW7S6odxc1U

 

Don't know how I missed their exploding 6s strat. If you put chapter master re-rolls on them and stack fires of devotion and 6s auto-wound vow via fervent acclamation... could get very nasty!

there are some problems here. All "better" units have the opurtunity for chapter master rerolls and fires of devotion + auto-wound via stratagem too.

 

And even more so if you think how the game works when you want that units buffed. Where does 

they have to be before the buffs, how to hide.... BGV are very tough, even VV have 2+4++ (in comparison to 3+5++ by SB) so they can better survive against shooting before they come into their position to charge.

 

 

 

If you watch the video you will see they agree BGV are a better tanky/anchor unit. But in terms of damage output they lose out big time, especially with the increasing prevalence of -1D. Furthermore with being able to use cover, 5++, and a 5+++ they're still pretty tanky themselves. And the auto-wound isn't a stratagem, it's a Vow that you can apply with Fervent Acclamation. The stratagem is exploding 6s to hit, and that is Sword Brethren only.

 

I just said you can have that auto wound per stratagem instead of wasting a important litany - because if you want to have output -> then having +1 A and MWs on 6s is much better

[Medjugorje]

 

 

 

IN on Sword Brethren:

 

Don't know how I missed their exploding 6s strat. If you put chapter master re-rolls on them and stack fires of devotion and 6s auto-wound vow via fervent acclamation... could get very nasty!

there are some problems here. All "better" units have the opurtunity for chapter master rerolls and fires of devotion + auto-wound via stratagem too.

 

And even more so if you think how the game works when you want that units buffed. Where does

they have to be before the buffs, how to hide.... BGV are very tough, even VV have 2+4++ (in comparison to 3+5++ by SB) so they can better survive against shooting before they come into their position to charge.

 

If you watch the video you will see they agree BGV are a better tanky/anchor unit. But in terms of damage output they lose out big time, especially with the increasing prevalence of -1D. Furthermore with being able to use cover, 5++, and a 5+++ they're still pretty tanky themselves. And the auto-wound isn't a stratagem, it's a Vow that you can apply with Fervent Acclamation. The stratagem is exploding 6s to hit, and that is Sword Brethren only.

I disagree with Medjugorje a lot, but the point of better units simply benefitting more from the overlapping buffs isn't one of those areas.

 

But all that being said, the bgv are far more durable. The invul and native 2+ are huge, as it's in effect for both shooting and melee. The extra wound basically gives them wound parity, while losing output less per failed wound than the sword brethren. It also goes to my next point that the bgv are very likely to receive Champion of the Feast due to their bulky nature, which obviously super charges the unit.

 

It's a real choice of offense vs defense. The bgv are more capable of going out on their own, while the sword brethren really need to stay close to the buff bubble. But then, you realise that Primaris crusaders fill their role of chainsword blender a lot better, and have more bodies to back it up.

 

 

 

thx. This is why I dont see them in my lists. The only way I can image them into my lists is when Impulsors are good and you can drive with dem on to objectves and make charges in combination with a whirlwind or holy orb to have some "fitght last" abilities. And if your impulsor explodes one or two "1s" are not that expensive in comparison to loose a BGV. You an still embark them on terrain and make them obsec the fallowing turn. Sadly hiting on 3s for that unit is not good enough in this times and the impulsor is still too expensive. I really hope they will reduce the points for that vehicle next time

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

With armies like crusher stampede looming you don’t get as much oomph from BGV.… whereas SB can do just as much or more damage for less points.

[Tiger9gamer]

I mean both have their place, at at some point you could always run both. As I look at it, I like the BGV for the extra toughness, but the SB seem like they could really do a lot for their point value if you get them set up correctly. I know someone at my LFG said they are running a ten man SB squad with Helbretch and are seeing great results with them in pick up games, while I have seen BGV do their work. it all just depends on how you wanna run things I think. if You got enough toughness then go for SB, and if you got enough attacks get a brick of BGVs

I'm going to be painting my leviathan and vindicator soon, but I got some BGV to convert from a sword brother box too. I am planning on running either squad with a judicator for that much more protection when I get them ready at any rate.

The biggest thing I wish we got is the ability to turn a VVet squad to sword brothers. It would have been nice.

[Medjugorje]

With armies like crusher stampede looming you don’t get as much oomph from BGV.… whereas SB can do just as much or more damage for less points.

 

against those lists both units are bad. You need Eradicators against them. 

 

 

I mean both have their place, at at some point you could always run both. As I look at it, I like the BGV for the extra toughness, but the SB seem like they could really do a lot for their point value if you get them set up correctly. I know someone at my LFG said they are running a ten man SB squad with Helbretch and are seeing great results with them in pick up games, while I have seen BGV do their work. it all just depends on how you wanna run things I think. if You got enough toughness then go for SB, and if you got enough attacks get a brick of BGVs

 

I'm going to be painting my leviathan and vindicator soon, but I got some BGV to convert from a sword brother box too. I am planning on running either squad with a judicator for that much more protection when I get them ready at any rate.

 

The biggest thing I wish we got is the ability to turn a VVet squad to sword brothers. It would have been nice.

 

I think both would have their place if SB getting great point reductions or some special rules and cheaper Impulsors... but at the moment NO

Edited February 4, 2022 by Medjugorje

[Tokugawa]

If the evaluation standard is "profile of an assault intercessor worth 19pts", then there is no reason of why 22pts brethren has no tournament level play at all. 1 more attack, more options, can take cover, these abilities won't be overcosted at 3pts.

 

So the fact could be: "assault intercessor worth 19pts" is false. People play them because the cost including troop tax. If we assume the "tax free" cost of a primaris body is 16pts, then brethren pay 6pts for the abilities above for each model, which explains why they are not competitive.

[Tiger9gamer]

so changing topics, if you guys had to choose between an icarus array and an onslaught cannon on your redemptor, which one would you choose?

[9x19 Parabellum]

Just to be clear, you can take both.  But if you're really down to 5 points, I'd say the Onslaught Gatling Cannon.

[Tiger9gamer]

Just to be clear, you can take both.  But if you're really down to 5 points, I'd say the Onslaught Gatling Cannon.

yea I know, but My point limit is  usually bursting at the seems so 5 points goes a long way. it's really just to decide for my next model. I already got a "Long range" option, so I am planning one a redemptor that will move forward and be a bully. I am thinking plasma, heavy flamer, fragstorms and rocket pod for the next one.

 

Also... Happy to report I finally won a game against the Deathguard! never won against them with space marines before, so this is a glorious first. It was all thanks to incredibly bad luck on their part, but also some careful planning on how to move my guys. my Dreadnaughts proved they were eternal as well!

[Tokugawa]

Death guard is a tough matchup for marines, but not as tough as before.

 

CA2022 missions strongly emphasis on obsec, and encourage players to bring units which could perform actions and have obsec. DG sucks on actions. Poxwalkers can't perform action at all(except for an exclusive one), terminators are too precious to be idle for actions, and plague marines have mediocre overall performance.

 

On the other hand, these changes is good for BT. No matter which build, black tide or not, we almost always bring batallion, so we have troops. And tools like Rites of war and Strength of conviction. 

[Tiger9gamer]

Death guard is a tough matchup for marines, but not as tough as before.

 

CA2022 missions strongly emphasis on obsec, and encourage players to bring units which could perform actions and have obsec. DG sucks on actions. Poxwalkers can't perform action at all(except for an exclusive one), terminators are too precious to be idle for actions, and plague marines have mediocre overall performance.

 

On the other hand, these changes is good for BT. No matter which build, black tide or not, we almost always bring batallion, so we have troops. And tools like Rites of war and Strength of conviction. 

you say that, but the funny thing is that he had way more troops than I did! he ran about 4 plague marines squads (2 melee and 2 all bolters) and 2 big squads of pox walkers, along with 4 mephrit crawlers and 1 plagueburst. Not an optimized list, and he did some things that were probably poor choices all things considered (ran buffing heroes with the wrong squads, almost ran piecemeal at me, didn't fully get on objectives ect.)

 

I pretty much outsped him with rhinos, and turn 1 gained the center objective and just wouldn't give it up, having a drawn out fight. I lost half of my crusaders but I outscored him on primaries.

 

my Venerable and Leviathan held the flanks on their side too, with the Leviathan surviving so much thrown at him. it was just insane TBH, and he held the flank until my VVets cleared it out turn 3.

 

I am so happy I swapped out my LRC for jump packs and the Leviathan. It is a much better list now that I have something that can actually kill things... Though I do wonder how a regular Land raider does a little bit as a tank and not a transport.

[Medjugorje]

Tommorow u have a tournament in my Club. I Was not too much into 40k last few weeks so i think i dont have chances to Perform that great. ( even my lvo Tickets i have chancelled because of work and nurgle..)

 

But i want to have a bit fun and so i try this one: without the usual dreads

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Black Templars) [107 PL, -2CP, 1,988pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Chapter Selection: Black Templars

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

+ HQ +

 

Chaplain Grimaldus [7 PL, 140pts]: 1. Litany of Divine Protection, 4. Fires of Devotion, Litany of Hate

 

High Marshal Helbrecht [8 PL, 160pts]

 

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [6 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Iron Resolve, Litany of Hate, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Tannhauser's Bones, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Assault Intercessor Squad [11 PL, 134pts]: Fist of Balthus

. 5x Assault Intercessor: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol

. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power fist

 

Primaris Crusader Squad [10 PL, 203pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword

. 3x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 3x Astartes Chainsword, 3x Frag & Krak grenades, 3x Heavy Bolt Pistol

. 2x Primaris Initiate w/Power Fist and Heavy bolt pistol: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Power fist

. 4x Primaris Neophytes: 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Primaris Sword Brother: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword

 

Primaris Crusader Squad [11 PL, 208pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword, Holy Orb

. 4x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol

. Primaris Initiate w/Power Fist and Heavy bolt pistol: Power fist

. 4x Primaris Neophytes: 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Primaris Sword Brother: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword

 

+ Elites +

 

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [11 PL, 190pts]: Icon of Heinmann

. 4x Bladeguard Veteran: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted power sword, 4x Storm Shield

. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

 

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Aurillian Shroud

 

Primaris Sword Brethren Squad [9 PL, 138pts]: Bones of Mordred

. Primaris Sword Brethren: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw (Pair)

. Primaris Sword Brethren: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword

. Primaris Sword Brethren: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword

. Primaris Sword Brethren: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword

. Primaris Sword Brethren: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Eradicator Squad [15 PL, 325pts]: Heavy melta rifle, The Crux Obsidian

. 3x Eradicator: 3x Bolt pistol

. Eradicator Sgt

. Eradicator with MM: Multi-melta

. Eradicator with MM: Multi-melta

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Impulsor [7 PL, 130pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Multi-melta

 

Impulsor [7 PL, 130pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Multi-melta

 

++ Total: [107 PL, -2CP, 1,988pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

Feast is on bgv and soj on the orb squad

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Looking forward to hearing how you do… good luck and my the Emperor smile upon yee .

[Tokugawa]

Looks decent. The -1dmg guy should also have +1W on him.

[9x19 Parabellum]

So I played 2 games yesterday.  One at 1500 points using my Sa'Cea Tau against MCS Death Guard.  I picked him apart final score like 86 to 34.

 

The 2nd game was 1000 points, my Black Templar against Tau Sept Tau.  I got demolished. For funsies, I brought my Repulsor Executioner.  In round 1 it took a missile from Skyray Gunship (the one with 6 missiles). 4 damage.  Then I got wounded by 2 (out of 3) Rail Rifles from Pathfinders, for another 8 damage.  This was despite popping smoke (autolaunchers). Now again, to be fair, I didn't take Uphold the Honor, so I had no 5++.  So that's what I get.  Anyway on my turn 1 I PotMS and delete 2 squads of Tau Fire Warriors and I put 9 wounds on the Skyray between Heavy Laser Destroyer and Multimelta, and he uses a strat to transfer one damaging hit to a nearby drone thus preventing me from destroying it outright (lesson learned).  Turn 2 he finishes off the Executioner, and, since that was 365 points of a 1,000 pt list it all went down hill from there.

 

Now, I know (and agree) with folks who say SM vehicles are largely trash. I just had to play this guy because it was his debut performance after finishing painting it for the Knightfall event.  So then for poops and giggles I looked at this and compared it to the Stormsurge.

 

-T8, 22 wounds, 2+/4++

vs.

-T8, 16 wounds, 3+/-

 

The Stormsurge can generate it's own to-hit rerolls (which it will almost always get because it's great LoS afforded by its height, and Tau-range guns means it will rarely have to move).  It will largely hit on 3+ because of Marker Light support and/or the Velocity Tracker.   So the reliability on ranged offense is pretty comparable.

 

It actually somehow has better melee ability than a Space Marine unit. And it doesn't care about getting tagged in combat if it doesn't want to be in melee combat with whatever charged it.

 

It has comparable if not better overall ranged lethality

 

And the kick in nuts is that this thing is a full 30 points less than the Executioner.

 

Who the hell is even looking at these things???

Edited February 12, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Maritn]

Yeah... it's maybe even worse, if you look at the Redemptor vs the normal Repulsor, because their stats are quite close.

 

Repulsor with LasTalon, TL Lascannon, 2 Storm Bolter, IRP, OGC

vs

Redemptor with MPI, 2 Stab, IRP, OGC

 

Move 10 Vs 8

 

T8 16W vs T7 13W -1 Damage (I'd even say the Redemptor has the edge here)

 

The smaller weapons are identical, and the main guns are close

4 shots AP3 at D6 damage (range 24/48)

vs

D6 shots AP4 at 3 damage (overcharged; is on average as good as 3 Shots @ D6 damage, but better against a wider range of targets)

 

No CC weapons vs 5 attacks with a dreadnought fist.

 

So basically you've got one Lascannon shot at 24" with less AP and no overheating more on the Repulsor, lacking CC power. And you pay 130 points more for that?! What the hell...

[Tiger9gamer]

Yeah... it's maybe even worse, if you look at the Redemptor vs the normal Repulsor, because their stats are quite close.

 

Repulsor with LasTalon, TL Lascannon, 2 Storm Bolter, IRP, OGC

vs

Redemptor with MPI, 2 Stab, IRP, OGC

 

Move 10 Vs 8

 

T8 16W vs T7 13W -1 Damage (I'd even say the Redemptor has the edge here)

 

The smaller weapons are identical, and the main guns are close

4 shots AP3 at D6 damage (range 24/48)

vs

D6 shots AP4 at 3 damage (overcharged; is on average as good as 3 Shots @ D6 damage, but better against a wider range of targets)

 

No CC weapons vs 5 attacks with a dreadnought fist.

 

So basically you've got one Lascannon shot at 24" with less AP and no overheating more on the Repulsor, lacking CC power. And you pay 130 points more for that?! What the hell...

yea, especially with the storm surge being a ridiculous amount of points there is no excusing this. Plus, I would actually buy a repulsor if it did what I wanted in letting me transport a full ten man squad around!

 

anyone else getting 6th / 7th edition flashbacks with the tau now?

[Medjugorje]

In short. I lost both games i had. One guy quited, so i had no last game.

 

No Chance against 30 sacresants, morvan vahl and celestine. His hole army had ignoring ap. I think i played ok But my opponent and i were Sure that this game would be an autoloss.

 

 

And Same agsinst orks. I had a Chance to fight 7 buggies, about 15 biker and 2 Flyer with my eradicators but he Managed to kill All in round 1 although i had them behind a wall and 5+++ on them... so

92:49 and 92:34