the BIG 9th edition room

[Tokugawa]

What do you all think about scout bikers? I’m considering them due to the volume of shots and their mobility. Lame that they’re the same cost as regular bikers.

GW shouting "don't buy it" as setting it W2, instead of W3. If they have W3 they may have some use. 

 

As a relatively fragile unit, scout bike need to make good trade in the first arrived turn(they could outflank). They can deliver 22 S4 shots with a 95pts squad of 3(3 twin bolters, 3 shotguns, 1 storm bolter), score 14.7 hits, with doctrine AP-1 that will kill...1.8 marines on average, or 1.2 shield drone. Not good trades.  T3 W1 units are their prey, but I am afraid that most such units are not exposed(e.g. druks or TAU warriors stay in transports, GSC hide underground, Admech robemen has ridiculus early game cover save bonus) target.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Tokugawa

[Tiger9gamer]

Hypothetically, which vow would be best for a defensive “siege battle” game? Thinking about running a narrative game with templars holding a choke point in a wall, so I want to get the most use out of terrain.

 

 

edit: it finally happened… my poor leviathan was taken down in a game. It took a chaos knight shooting a titan killing weapon at it, but Brother John fell to enemy fire!

Edited February 27, 2022 by Tiger9gamer

[Medjugorje]

Hypothetically, which vow would be best for a defensive “siege battle” game? Thinking about running a narrative game with templars holding a choke point in a wall, so I want to get the most use out of terrain.

 

 

edit: it finally happened… my poor leviathan was taken down in a game. It took a chaos knight shooting a titan killing weapon at it, but Brother John fell to enemy fire!

never ask again^^

 

in each case "uphold" is the best except you are saying you want to tell a story about it. Fluffy reasons are the only ones who allow to take other vows. 

[CrystalSeer]

It's kind of funny, because swearing to hold a point would actually be the best fluff reason for UtHotE.

 

I could see accept any challenge as a decent runner up.

[Urkh]

The best defense is a good offense. Suffer not the unclean and meet them on the battlefield! (Not serious, I don't even remember what that vow does have so little consideration for it.

[Medjugorje]

played with the new Eldar codex against another friend who played Black Templars. It was a desaster. I dont know what I had done against my list although my list wasnt that strong.

Its really time for a new Space Marine codex or strong point drops.

 

comparison: WL Trait BT -> +1 for advances and charges for the WL

WL Trait for Harlekins -> +6 to charge and 3+d3 for advance (and movement 8 + advance and charge as core rule)

[MarshalMittermeier]

unfortunately you are correct about sm codex.

 

i believe the black templars codex is good-you can take the best sm units and slap a 5++. problem is, space marine datasheets are so overcosted, even the 5++ for 0 points doesnt make them competitive.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would rank them at top of B tier. They’ve won some GTs for sure… can’t ignore that either.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I had a game against my TTS buddy a couple nights ago. He's the one who I tried crusader tide against a 3 dreadknight+tank commander list and lost very badly to.

 

This time I was using my traditional 2 redemptors and 2 melee blocks of Elite units, expecting to go into Tau. Instead, it was GSC. I've played against GSC once in 8th and zero times in 9th. Not super sure what his list was as a result; it was the 6+ invul subfaction, two bricks of aberrants that could both get 5+ fnp, two units of bikes a car with a mining laser, a unit with drills and then seismic cannon squads. We rolled conversion or whatever it's called. 5 objectives, gain points if you hold the no man or opponents objective, but lose points if you don't hold your own... Feeling like fate was cruel, I took Oath, Investigate Signals and stranglehold, because I'm used to holding it down.

 

I also forgot that the list I was using was built to take advantage of combing Honour vehement with Accept, even after tweaking it to account for the new point changes. So I took Accept. At least his shooting didn't necessitate Uphold.

 

I went first and used Acclamation to fast move my termies on the middle objective to investigate, sent other units to hold the no man's objectives. A redemptor killed ~17 hybrid? from a blob that spawned from a token. One of his bike units also finished off by helbrecht.

 

His first turn had purestrain snipe my bladeguard on the one no man's, and a patriarch my eliminators on the other. Thankfully, I still had my rites of war chaplain on the genestealer one, so I went into turn 2 scoring high on primary.

 

This is where the game basically degenerated into me throwing more supporting units into the objectives to counter charge and shooting exposed stuff with the dreadnoughts. He failed three critical rolls over the rest of the game; aberrants into a tactical squad on the bladeguard/chaplain objective, drill guys into helbrecht, and not killing a redemptor with shooting and needing to use the patriarch to finish it.

 

When the dust had settled at the end of 5, it was 93-92. For Templars. The terminators scored me 30 points for holding the middle through signals and oath, even though they didn't enter combat once. Pretty happy with the win, even though I really shouldn't have. Making any of those three rolls would have won him the game.

[Marshal Arthur]

Congrats on the win. One of the guys in my crusade league runs GSC and I find Uphold is usually the best choice against him. His shooting relies on a relatively small number of high strength high AP shots so hurting his wound rolls and AP really puts a dent in his shooting, and his guys have little armor anyways so the extra AP from Assault Doctrine isn't always essential, nor is the consistent +1 A when his melee units really want to finish you off in one round or they risk annihilation.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Congrats on the win. One of the guys in my crusade league runs GSC and I find Uphold is usually the best choice against him. His shooting relies on a relatively small number of high strength high AP shots so hurting his wound rolls and AP really puts a dent in his shooting, and his guys have little armor anyways so the extra AP from Assault Doctrine isn't always essential, nor is the consistent +1 A when his melee units really want to finish you off in one round or they risk annihilation.

 

Something my friend told me in the post game talk was that his list is really off meta for GSC. Almost all his quality shooting was -2 str 6, and it never really benefited from exposed on the infantry. The aberrants would have blunted a little by Uphold, but I figured they'd come after units that would never beat them in combat, far away from my stronger ones. I expect against a more normal list I'd want uphold.

[Marshal Arthur]

That's fair. My friend runs a lot of mining lasers and relies on glass cannon melee units like acolytes who usually don't survive more than one round of sustained combat.

[Tokugawa]

GSC have many glass cannon type units. They are about making trades.

[Tiger9gamer]

So turns out, Tzeentch at 1k points is really bloody hard. I also had bad luck… I also had such bad luck all around today.

 

Also had my puny jump pack marshal do 15 wounds to a lord of skulls on 11 wounds, killing it before he struck thanks to master of arms. I gotta say that guy is mean for 140 points

[Khornestar]

Thinking about Eradicators and Heavy Intercessors.

 

Might not be the absolute most efficient loadouts, but I'm thinking of arming them all with their respective assault weapon variants, i.e. melta rifles and hellstorm bolt rifles.

 

My thought is that the stratagem to allow a unit to advance and shoot assault weapons with no BS penalty can be used to add extra range/mobility options. Probably still multimeltas, too.

Anyone been using either unit? What loadouts are you using?

[noigrim]

Can Black Templars use Company Champions? I am aware they can not use the Chapter Champions, as they use the Emperor's Champion for that role, but I am asking specifically for the Company Champion models...

Priamus!

[Tokugawa]

Thinking about Eradicators and Heavy Intercessors.

 

Might not be the absolute most efficient loadouts, but I'm thinking of arming them all with their respective assault weapon variants, i.e. melta rifles and hellstorm bolt rifles.

 

My thought is that the stratagem to allow a unit to advance and shoot assault weapons with no BS penalty can be used to add extra range/mobility options. Probably still multimeltas, too.

Anyone been using either unit? What loadouts are you using?

One non-etb eradicators box give you 4 melta(or heavy melta) rifles and 1 multi-melta bits. They are fully swapable with heavy intercessor kits.

 

That is how heavy intercessors could be useful.

[Khornestar]

Well, that isn’t a particularly helpful response frater, as I’m seeking an actual answer.

 

Does the value of advance and shoot assault weapons with no BS reduction offset the benefits of the other guns?

Edited March 7, 2022 by Khornestar

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Agreed on the reply.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well, that isn’t a particularly helpful response frater, as I’m seeking an actual answer.

Does the value of advance and shoot assault weapons with no BS reduction offset the benefits of the other guns?

One game my shooty Crusader squad used it so they could target two squishy Drukhari units and wiped them both… it’s quite janky imo.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[CrystalSeer]

I would say no, as there's not enough shots to really benefit from a 15% increase on accuracy.

 

Dice will still be swingy.

 

That strat is more useful on things like aggressors or crusader blobs.

[Urkh]

Here are some questions I think you can ask yourself that might help you find your answer:

 

1) does my list's troops choices want my heavy intercessors to be able to be more mobile, rather than a home objective camper?

 

2) is my delivery system for my eradicators not good enough / am I spending points elsewhere and want to use this strat as my delivery system?

 

3) Am I planning on using this strat every turn? Occasionally? Only when needed?

 

4) If the first for number three is true, what strats should I plan on not using so I can have enough CP to use this strat? Is giving up that strat worth being able to take this strat?

 

5) how many of my opponents would changing my weapons and strat usage actually be useful against?

 

For H Ints, there's no points cost for the change from heavy to hellstorm, you lose 6" range and a point of AP for more consistent volume of shots, at no points cost. This seems better T4/5 with little armor saves (ork boyz?), and deathly against lower T squads like gaunts or gauard.

 

If you're advancing with them, I am assuming your army is having them move forward, as they're probably most of your troops. Use them to kill enemy troops, and your bgv's/erads for everything else. The advance can help move them from cover to cover (for LoS purposes, because Uphold) to protect them from enemy heavy hitters while you line up shots on said troops.

 

For the eradicators, the change seems to be -2dmg for more mobility while being functional, -1cp for more accuracy. I've personally never used eradicators, but from reading what people say about them, their mobility is the biggest issue with them. At 1(2) shot(s) each, I might still try to get them a reroll aura if possible.

 

I hope this helps. I am generally not a primaris player, but these are questions I would ask myself of any army I build, and these kinds of questions will work for many situations you might find yourself in.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s not good in general for Eradicators because then they can’t double shoot because they advanced.

[Urkh]

^^^

 

Proof I've never played with these guys, haha. I would have known that if I did.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Thinking about Eradicators and Heavy Intercessors.

 

Might not be the absolute most efficient loadouts, but I'm thinking of arming them all with their respective assault weapon variants, i.e. melta rifles and hellstorm bolt rifles.

 

My thought is that the stratagem to allow a unit to advance and shoot assault weapons with no BS penalty can be used to add extra range/mobility options. Probably still multimeltas, too.

Anyone been using either unit? What loadouts are you using?

 

The eradicators should probably stick with heavy melta rifles as the unit's power is tied to the double shoot, something they can't do after advancing any more. Using strats like Steady Advance and Devout Push to position them well will give you far more damage output for about the same average movement.

 

Heavy intercessors could go assault weapons. I'll admit that I always forget the unit exists because it was so late in releasing and the rules were...whatever. But regardless, they don't have any output loss like the eradicators.