Prediction on 9th & how it will affect DA

[Hellunder]

Yeah new secondaries (that might be faction oriented as well) will be cool! The ITC secondaries are starting to get boring. A bit funny how much GW have looked at ITC though, they should almost get some compensation.  

Back to ITC: the first game in a tournament can be very unbalanced, but thanks to the matching system you should get some good balanced games after that first game. I've had a lot more fun and balanced games playing ITC compared to narrative campaigns for example.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Hellunder

[Darmor]

After the article about CP system Lazarus' aura of FnP against mortal wounds seems much more useful than it was at the release.

[Gederas]

After the article about CP system Lazarus' aura of FnP against mortal wounds seems much more useful than it was at the release.

Almost like the Psychic Awakening stuff was written with 9th in mind.... ;)

[Skywrath]

On a more interesting note, I wonder what changes will be in store for our other dark-coloured brethren. Do you think we might be seeing primaris fallen now?

[Gederas]

On a more interesting note, I wonder what changes will be in store for our other dark-coloured brethren. Do you think we might be seeing primaris fallen now?

No, because Fallen are specifically only the Legionnaires who betrayed the Emperor and Lion, and went with Luther.

 

While the Unforgiven put all of their focus on hunting their wayward brethren, there is an important distinction between "true" Fallen and just another traitorous space marine. In the novel Pandorax, one of the major villains is a renegade Consecrators Space Marine, who refers to himself as Fallen and has even had contact with Cypher.

 

Once he was caught, he refused to be broken and repent in the dungeons of the Rock and claimed that he would escape if they did not kill him. To which Azrael & Asmodai laughed in his face (Yes, ASMODAI, the "Stop Having Fun Guy" raging psychopath, LAUGHED). Then they told him that the "true Fallen" were led unknowingly by Luther into rebellion and can still be saved if they repent, while his descent into heresy was his own fault and he was not led astray, finding Chaos because of his own selfish desires whatever they may have been. So Dark Angels simply consider other more recent renegades as traitors worthy of only death. So they decapitate him.

[Skywrath]

 

On a more interesting note, I wonder what changes will be in store for our other dark-coloured brethren. Do you think we might be seeing primaris fallen now?

No, because Fallen are specifically only the Legionnaires who betrayed the Emperor and Lion, and went with Luther.

 

While the Unforgiven put all of their focus on hunting their wayward brethren, there is an important distinction between "true" Fallen and just another traitorous space marine. In the novel Pandorax, one of the major villains is a renegade Consecrators Space Marine, who refers to himself as Fallen and has even had contact with Cypher.

 

Once he was caught, he refused to be broken and repent in the dungeons of the Rock and claimed that he would escape if they did not kill him. To which Azrael & Asmodai laughed in his face (Yes, ASMODAI, the "Stop Having Fun Guy" raging psychopath, LAUGHED). Then they told him that the "true Fallen" were led unknowingly by Luther into rebellion and can still be saved if they repent, while his descent into heresy was his own fault and he was not led astray, finding Chaos because of his own selfish desires whatever they may have been. So Dark Angels simply consider other more recent renegades as traitors worthy of only death. So they decapitate him.

 

 

But why couldn't fallen be current 40k Dark Angels. Ones that renounced their oaths to the First Legion, and sided with the Fallen. Not going to derail the thread too much, but it was said that the Fallen are gathering with the Cicatrix Maledictum release. So why couldn't the Fallen be conducting a recruitment drive, where they attempt sway both Dark Angel primaris and firstborn to their case? Wouldn't be that much of a stretch, considering how the First Legion are fairly adept at getting their own way.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Skywrath

[Berzul]

So, now we have a starting set of CP, one detachment that is free of CP cost, and further detachments which will cost CP, thus reducing the starting number the more varied your army (which, given the options presented by even a regular battalion, means that most often than not, you might just go with a central detachment and little more, to be honest... why spend CP unless ON TOP of countless troops choices, you also plan on bringing in HUGE numbers of elites, fast attack, or heavy support.

 

Friends in my gaming group were pondering if maybe DA or WS would get an Outrider Detachment for free on top of the core detachment, but I doubt it. Given that the focus of the edition is for people to be on a more equal footing, I do NOT expect us to have any kind of free detachments. Clearly the goal here is for both armies to have as equal a number of CP to start with as possible.

 

What I like about this, is that we can once again look forward to Dual Lists of DW and RW, or even Solo DW or Solo RW lists!

I mean, if you get your max CP regardless of what you use, and you get the cost of the first detachment refunded, then these all gives us the ideal conditions to just play an Elite Focused force! PLaying a single Vanguard seems absolutely doable now! It might be the return of Deathwing Armies.

 

Imagine bringing just DW, with such a high number of CP to start.... amazing.

 

EDIT: Considering the increase in model costs, though, that Elite force might be quite small in size...

Edited June 4, 2020 by Berzul

[Berzul]

Still, at present points, for 1000 in a list, I could bring my TDA IC, my TDA Libby, 10 Knights, 5 Termies, an Ancient, and a Ven Dread, and still have 5 points to spare... A difficult force to use with 4 command points, but much better with 6, and an extra point per round (to an 11 total by round 5). I could keep Transhuman Physiology on my Knights throughout the entire fight, while still being able to throw a Deathwing Assault with the terminator squad, plus Fortress of Shields when the fighting starts, and an extra Warlord Trait or an extra Relic beyond the pennant.

[ValourousHeart]

Still, at present points, for 1000 in a list, I could bring my TDA IC, my TDA Libby, 10 Knights, 5 Termies, an Ancient, and a Ven Dread, and still have 5 points to spare... A difficult force to use with 4 command points, but much better with 6, and an extra point per round (to an 11 total by round 5). I could keep Transhuman Physiology on my Knights throughout the entire fight, while still being able to throw a Deathwing Assault with the terminator squad, plus Fortress of Shields when the fighting starts, and an extra Warlord Trait or an extra Relic beyond the pennant.

 

Let's hope that Vanguard, Outrider and Spearhead detachments are not too expensive CP wise.  From what I read on the community page the free first detachment might only be free if it is a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade.

[Berzul]

 

 

Still, at present points, for 1000 in a list, I could bring my TDA IC, my TDA Libby, 10 Knights, 5 Termies, an Ancient, and a Ven Dread, and still have 5 points to spare... A difficult force to use with 4 command points, but much better with 6, and an extra point per round (to an 11 total by round 5). I could keep Transhuman Physiology on my Knights throughout the entire fight, while still being able to throw a Deathwing Assault with the terminator squad, plus Fortress of Shields when the fighting starts, and an extra Warlord Trait or an extra Relic beyond the pennant.

Let's hope that Vanguard, Outrider and Spearhead detachments are not too expensive CP wise. From what I read on the community page the free first detachment might only be free if it is a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade.

Assuming that indeed only the big three refund you their cost of CP, how expensive do you think specialist detachments might be?

 

Because, if they cost 1cp, well, thats ok I guess... I just fear, then, thatbthey might be like, I dunno... 3cp each.

 

Most likely they will cost 1 or 2, though. Given the total number to start, I think it might even be just 1. Otherwise, even by bringing a Battalion, you start bleeding CP FAST

[G8Keeper]

It's almost certain we will get more CP to play with using pure RW & DW lists which is great (not so much for my gaming group, they hate facing my RW, even though my win ratio is actually only 50:50).  There is a small possibility we may get access to a single Vanguard or Outrider for free if using pure DW or RW and I say that purely because Drukhari are said to be getting some form of detachment shenanigans still, so a very small chance IMHO.

 

In a 2000pt single battalion list led by Azrael/any brilliant strategist warlord we're looking at 12 CP to start + 1 per Command Phase (say 6 turns average) = 18 CP, plus the ability to regain one every battle round, for a total of between 18 and 24 CP YIKES!

[Berzul]

I am looking forward to running my terminators and bikes on their own, without tactical squads, for a change. Then again, my collection is heavily based on the greenwing, with few terminators and bikes, vehicles and named characters. So, that will only happen on small games.

[Skywrath]

I am looking forward to running my terminators and bikes on their own, without tactical squads, for a change. Then again, my collection is heavily based on the greenwing, with few terminators and bikes, vehicles and named characters. So, that will only happen on small games.

 

So am I. As much as I love my primaris marines, I'd like those points to be allocated to other, more interesting units, such as dreadnoughts. But here is hoping with the point changes, the DWC will see play again, alongside my DWK and DWA!

Edited June 5, 2020 by Skywrath

[Grand Master Raziel]

So, fixed CP based on game size. Detachments cost points, but the first one is free if it's a patrol, battalion, or brigade. Increase points cost - I heard an estimated 20% on podcasts. Battalion costs 3 cp, so I imagine more specialized detachments cost more. Regaining 1 CP a turn if battle forged so no one will run out entirely.

Previous to these reveals, I've been leaning int double battalions as my go-to configuration for competitive list building. Now I'm thinking single bat, or maybe single bat and patrol, depending on how much a patrol costs and how badly I want a Dark Shroud - which may not be very badly if it goes up in points. Everything being more expensive is at least partially offset by not having to take as many compulsory Troops, though I am leaning towards a 10-man Intercessor squad as one of them now, so downside-upside. Won't have as many compulsory HQs either. Also, with less on the table, key units might last longer because opponents won't have as much to throw at them.

 

[Berzul]

Consider also the reduction in board size. We are taking 44" by 60" on a 1001 to 2000 point game, down from the old 48" by 70". Less things will fit on the board, and crossing the gap to engage in melee will be easier, as well.

[Isual]

Consider also the reduction in board size. We are taking 44" by 60" on a 1001 to 2000 point game, down from the old 48" by 70". Less things will fit on the board, and crossing the gap to engage in melee will be easier, as well.

 

These are just minimum board sizes as i understood it from the stream and article today. You are free to run on your old table.

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Isual

[Berzul]

Yeah, but, I would expect people to use this new measurements as standard, don't you think?

[G8Keeper]

Depends if you have the funds and means to change I guess? The jury's out whether tournaments will use it and reworking Gw's own gaming hall would be a huge task.

[Skywrath]

I honestly think these measurements are for nothing more than legalese, and don't really apply to us. I may be wrong in assuming this, but wouldn't most of the games we've been playing the last 3 years already follow those measurements closely? I mean the boards at my LGWS are 2 boards by 2 boards, and I think they fit snugly into that second bracket of 44 x 60.

[Solrac]

The intention of reducing the board size was to make the game more accessible to everyone so they could play on their dining table rather than having to get MDF boards to put on top of the table to meet the minimum size of 6' x 4'. Naturally the average size dining table will vary a lot but they are making a pretty good effort to accommodate it.

 

Reducing the table size and upping the points cost of all units also means games will be quicker as there will be less models on the table and models will die a lot quicker having to start closer than before.

 

Keep in mind the new table size is the minimum recommended size for that point size game so naturally you can use any size you want.

 

There seems to be a lot of emphasis on player's being able to choose how they play their games and place minimum recommended guidelines to do so. I'm all for having more choice and I'm all for having faster games of 40k. Everything previewed so far has been a win for me. Sill yet to pass judgement on things that need more context e.g detachments, terrain.

 

A lot of people seem to think there will no longer be a need for Troops choices but I think people need to wait and see what the terrain rules will be like and how all the mission rules are going to work before you make a final judgement on Troops.

[G8Keeper]

I think it's probably we won't need Troops to form say a Deathwing/Ravenwing army and still have them viable in terms of CP, however, as Solrac said, mission wise there will be certain one's that require Troops to score et al. so they will still be a thing IMHO.  The minimum game size may actually affect my gaming with my wife as setup time will be reduced as we can just setup a game on the kitchen table without setting the boards up (they're in the garage).

 

With regards to points going up, Stu Black said in one of the recent chats that people have slightly over-egged the changes as they're basing an assumed 20% increase across 3000 or so units and wargear options on their example of 2, it's not that high.  He said he's lost probably a unit of marines from his 2000pt list, granted we don't know what unit that is .

 

Edit: Changed Pete Foley to Stu Black because my mind doesn't work.

Edited June 9, 2020 by G8Keeper

[Hantheman]

If I can get 12cp into my ravenwing army. Holy

Edited June 9, 2020 by Hantheman

[Berzul]

I do fear that troop choices might become even MORE irrelevant now, in light of the new edition. Specially for a codex such as ours.

 

So far, Troop Choices have mostly been seen as a tax you had to pay in order to get the CP needed to fuel your army. Not always, and not by everyone, mind you. I'm not trying to make a general argument against any player or unit in the game. But, it stands by the evidence of multiple discussions here and elsewhere, that troops have been a "tax" on your army for many, in this edition.

 

So, if GW wants to maintain a feeling of "armies" in their game, and not of "specialist teams", and they intend to do this still through forcing us to take more traditional army structures if we want to be able to play our armies with the stratagems required to make them shine, then.... how will this whole new CP structure work?

 

Then again, and why I think Troops will become more irrelevant now, the game seems to be shifting away from standard army deployments, in a way.

 

We have new and much smaller suggested sizes for boards (and, lets be clear, handbook-determined board size has ALWAYS been a "minimum", and a guideline; and players have ALWAYS been able to play on boards much larger than regulation size, and even much smaller), we have cost point increases of around a 20% across the board (which means armies will be around 20% smaller, overall). This all has been done with the express and acknowledged intent of making games fit on smaller dining room tables, and take less time to play.

 

So, think about it.... Smaller area of play, smaller armies, most likely a more streamlined version of what has already been a big streamlining of the game thus far, community announcement focus on 500-1000 point games, and a crusade system meant for progression of play from a small force to a larger one.

 

It all sure seems to line up pretty well for us to play elite strike forces, and not really large and traditional armies. Deathwing "Redemption" style lists. Ravenwing Attack Squadrons. That sort of thing. Not much room (or need) for the Greenwing, there.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Berzul

[Angel of Solitude]

Well, with vehicles now able to fire heavy weapons at full BS, there goes the benefit of that nice Ravenwing warlord trait we got!

 

On a plus side, unless they change other rules, that means the Rift cannon will be hitting on a 2+...

[Hantheman]

Well, with vehicles now able to fire heavy weapons at full BS, there goes the benefit of that nice Ravenwing warlord trait we got!

 

On a plus side, unless they change other rules, that means the Rift cannon will be hitting on a 2+...

 

Good. Can stay in dev doc for an extra turn for free instead