Prediction on 9th & how it will affect DA

[Master Sheol]

Haven't looked at things for a few days, and now these new pics of Blade Guard in a Deathwing color scheme appear...

 

So, what does this mean for Dark Angels, and probably any other Chapters?

 

All your stuff goes in the bin.

 

Well, you can keep the fluff, but then your fluff will, beyond a certain date, be Guilliman'd/Cawl'd into vanilla unit servitude. Essentially, you won't need specific models, and you won't even need an individual codex, because the only thing that will differentiate Dark Angels from any other Primaris Space Marine Chapter will be the color of the models and Chapter Tactics.

 

That's it.

 

So, just paint your models in the prescribed colors and you are good to go.

 

It will kind of be sad to see the unique kits go away, but then I can see many reasons to go this route. Look at the number of kits each army has available, and in this case let's lump all Space Marine Chapters together. We have a core of marine kits, plus specialized kits for Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Grey Knights. Then we have upgrade sprues for a number of other Chapters besides. Taken altogether, there are roughly three times the number of model kits for Space Marines of various Chapters as there are kits for any one other individual army. Essentially, Space Marines have outstanding support, and sometimes re-supported within the same game edition even, while other armies languish without equitable (i.e. proper) model support even across multiple game editions.

 

That is insane, as it greatly impacts interest in the game. If you want and interestingly diverse game, you better support it being interestingly diverse. GW hasn't been doing that. Even with its increased (and increasing) production capability, GW can not keep up with the number of kits it needs to update, or doesn't desire to do so any longer. I think the folks at GW saw that writing on the wall a while back, and we are seeing the backlash of all of that, which means a full reset transitioning to the utterly simple. While ripping the band-aid off might very well alienate people (a la' blowing up Warhammer Fantasy Battles, which wouldn't be desirable for the flagship game), a slower peeling off of it might not. Sure, there will be some ripping out of hairs, but it must be done.

 

What the new format seems to be:

 

- Core unit kits that all Chapters use.

- Upgrade sprues to add a little visual flavor (i.e. the current ones available, and perhaps a few new ones, as these are utterly simple to make).

- Unique rules to add a little crunchy flavor.

- New fluff explaining new stuff and explaining away former fluff/stuff.

 

Under this format, what we see the differences between Chapters being is minor visual differences, different color palettes, and different rules. Essentially, this new format would fall somewhere between the Horus Heresy format, where Chapters are mostly differentiated by color palette and rules, and 40k as it currently is, where Chapters are differentiated by color palette, rules, and a handful of much more specifically unique model kits. TDA will probably just go away. Reason: TDA became too difficult to maintain, but the new Mk. X variants (Tacticus, Gravis, Phobos, Omnis) are all new and fully supported. And so now we will now have non-TDA Deathwing units. We might even see a White Dwarf article showing old late-era Rogue Trader pics of Dark Angels in bone-colored power armor (I wouldn't put it past them). While I would really like to see a new form of upgraded Primaris TDA, who knows if that will happen. If it does, it will undoubtedly be a vanilla kit, and painting the unit in Chapter colors will be the chief means of differentiation. Even if that does happen, the Deathwing will already have been fundamentally changed.

While i understand your analysis i still think that each chapter will have già special kits

They can be special characters (now EVERYONE has at least one special characters model) and for the most important ones a couple of special units

I think that with primaris the special units will be conversion kits for the regular kits more than full kits

Like RW bikes being a conversion kit for regular bikes

BTW GW confirmed about RW Outriders "prepare your wings and kits to detail your DA Outriders bikes" and It could mean that a RW conversion kit Is coming for this unit

 

The poor ones are the SW that had a full line of dedicated units and they Will end having the same units like all other chapters

[Grand Master Raziel]

Haven't looked at things for a few days, and now these new pics of Blade Guard in a Deathwing color scheme appear...

 

So, what does this mean for Dark Angels, and probably any other Chapters?

 

All your stuff goes in the bin.

 

Well, you can keep the fluff, but then your fluff will, beyond a certain date, be Guilliman'd/Cawl'd into vanilla unit servitude. Essentially, you won't need specific models, and you won't even need an individual codex, because the only thing that will differentiate Dark Angels from any other Primaris Space Marine Chapter will be the color of the models and Chapter Tactics.

 

 

To be fair, that was pretty much the case in 3rd and 4th editions. We didn't really see the explosion of chapter-specific units until 5th edition, and there was an opportunity cost associated with having them - there were units we never got, and we've often had to wait whole editions to be updated to the latest Marine coolness because we had a different codex.

 

Plus, I kind of doubt GW will be able to long resist the temptation to release chapter-specific kits. They may not be concentrating on them very much right now because they're still releasing the basic Primaris line, but once they've got the full basic line out, I don't think it'll take very long for some chapter-specific units to come out. 

 

 

The poor ones are the SW that had a full line of dedicated units and they Will end having the same units like all other chapters

 

 

If you think about it, all we're really talking about here is Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Wolf Scouts, and Thunderwolf Cavalry. Everything else is either characters.  Blood Claws and Grey Hunters can be swapped with close combat and bolter-toting Intercessors. Long Fangs remains to be seen, and Wolf Scouts can be represented by any of the Phobos units.

[Berzul]

I get the sentiment. I too have been consistently of the opinion that the whole thing is a form of regression to a scene for the game in which all chapters are the same with regards to their range of units, with just stratagems and color/detailing to differentiate them, really.

 

Makes sense, in a way. I imagine this follows the same route the game had when it started. First, fill up the range of models, and then start pushing out specialist kits. We are living a new wave of this first step, right?

 

At least these new models in the release box look very DA, unlike all those phobos armored primaris. I wonder which models of this box will be box exclusive, though....

[shabbadoo]

Basically, Berzul. Of course there will be Chapter specific characters - there already are, and there will be more. Characters, shoulder pads, a few arms and heads, a small selection of icons, and paint scheme is the visual Chapter flavor for now. Staying with that idea, I would really prefer that GW make unit upgrade sprues for core unit kits, such as a Ravenwing Outriders Sprue, a White Scars Outriders Sprue, etc. If it is a unit that everyone uses, there really isn't a need for it to be "way out there" in regard to looking so different than the norm. This would fit the overall plan of what it seems they are doing, and leave more production slots open for anything that is especially Chapter specific, such as a vehicle or other unit used only by a particular Chapter. But then maybe a lot of those units will simply go away too, so there won't be as much need for such kits either. That would help enable the production of units for many other armies that have been ignored. It would also allow better model support for other games. This out of nowhere Deathwing Blade Guard reveal really guts the Deathwing like a fish, and puts us on the verge of a totally new era for Dark Angels.

 

And then bevulf and others will paint some of them, and they will look awesome, and then the litany of love/hate cursing will flood the forum, and in all likelihood more of us than not will buy them.

Edited June 28, 2020 by shabbadoo

[Skywrath]

Basically, Berzul. Of course there will be Chapter specific characters - there already are, and there continue to be. Characters, shoulder pads, a few arms and heads, a small selection of icons, and paint scheme is the visual Chapter flavor for now. Staying with that idea, I would really prefer that GW make unit upgrade sprues for core unit kits, such as a Ravenwing Outriders Sprue, a White Scars Outriders Sprue, etc. If it is a unit that everyone uses, there really isn't a need for it to be "way out there" in regard to looking so different than the norm. This would fit the overall plan of what it seems they are doing, and leave more production slots open for anything that is especially Chapter specific, such as a vehicle or other unit used only by a particular Chapter. But then maybe a lot of those units will simply go away too, so there won't be as much need for such kits either. That would help enable the production of units for many other armies that have been ignored. It would also allow better model support for other games. This out of nowhere Deathwing Blade Guard reveal really guts the Deathwing like a fish, and puts us on the verge of a totally new era for Dark Angels.

 

And then bevulf and others will paint some of them, and they will look awesome, and then the litany of love/hate cursing will flood the forum, and in all likelihood more of us than not will buy them.

 

I mean there is always a possibility we might get Forgeworld specific units. Very unlikely, but plausible. I think I said before that this is all just the generic stuff, the next stuff would be chapter specific. Not to mention there is always ways to make the outrider bikes to look more Ravenwing-ish, if you get creative enough. Personally, I wonder whether I can chop off those ravenwing wings from the handles and glue them on the side of the outriders. Could be an interesting idea, although half-baked.

[Berzul]

Its the way of the future, guys. Nothing do but get on with it.

[ValourousHeart]

Under this format, what we see the differences between Chapters being is minor visual differences, different color palettes, and different rules. 

 

Err... you mean like 2nd edition?

 

GW is replacing classic marines, and yes that means that all chapters are going to end up with 90% of the same tools in the box.

But as we have seen with the codex supplements and other various rules variations for the chapters, certain chapters will be encouraged to play using certain units.

 

DA will encourage the new bikes and ATV, Raven Guard will encourage Eliminators, and Imperial Fist will encourage those new turrets.

 

Will GW get around to making unique Primarus units for individual chapters?

Probably, eventually.

But it would be nice if they released Suppressors before they go and make a Primarus equivalent for Thunder Wolf Cav.

Edited June 19, 2020 by ValourousHeart

[shabbadoo]

Who knows what they'll do. At least we will be shortly seeing a Primaris Assault Squad, sans jump packs, in the new starter. I would hope there will soon be a Primaris Devastator Squad equivalent too (Supressors are not really that). There is also the sort of "brother unit" to the Hellbalsters, the Eradicators who are armed with melta rifles, so there is some more armament variety at least. Not sure they will do a flamer type unit, seeing as there are already the Aggressors.

 

What am I thinking.

 

Of course there will be a flamer unit. Having Hellblasters didn't stop them from making plasma-armed Inceptors, so why would Aggressors stop them from making another unit with flamers, or Eradicators stop them from making another unit with slightly different melta weapons? It wouldn't. The new Ourtriders, when they get a stand-alone kit, probably won't come with special weapon options. Every Primaris unit seems to have a single focus, so it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't. Even the sergeant may have limited or no upgrade options. That might not be much of a big deal if the [Primaris] Astartes Chainsword gets AP -1 though, plus a rule giving bonus attacks when the unit charges, as then the whole unit would be that much more of a murder machine. As I write of this, it occurs to me that perhaps the new starter set Primaris Assault unit may not ever get jump packs, relying on Impulsors to get them where they need to be (which is kind of cool I guess, as the combination would have a real "D-Day" feel to it then - perhaps by design), and leaving Outriders as the faster mobile close combat unit in the Primaris arsenal. The other close assault units are either foot-slogger slow, or are faster but only shooty. I would like for GW to do a concept art reveal of future Primaris units though, just so we have some idea of where they are going with them. Just no more units defined by their primary use of bolt rifles/carbines/whatevers. Enough already.

 

It occurs to me that there is a solid Primaris core forming up to fit a Dreadwing themed force made up of Eradicators, plasma Inceptors, Hellblasters, Repulsor Executioners, las fusil Eliminators, and such. It has taken a whole game edition, but the variety of units is building.

[jaxom]

This out of nowhere Deathwing Blade Guard reveal really guts the Deathwing like a fish, and puts us on the verge of a totally new era for Dark Angels.

 

 

Under this format, what we see the differences between Chapters being is minor visual differences, different color palettes, and different rules. 

 

Err... you mean like 2nd edition?

 

Okay everyone, let's all remember a very important point regarding the modern era of Space Marines compared to previous editions. The Horus Heresy Forge World and Black Library books are the foundation for modern characterization of the First Founding Chapters (the White Scars as of Index Astartes had 7 pages of fluff and 1 page of rules and look at them now). And guess who didn't have their FW book yet or receive a cohesive narrative from BL in/by 2017? Dark Angels.  Guess what exists now in 2020? A FW book for Dark Angels. So yeah, we are on the verge of a totally new era for Dark Angels.

 

"Out of nowhere?" This is the Dark Angels reaping what was sown. We know the Deathwing Companions are a thing. The Bladeguard are almost an identical unit. The Dark Angels are entering a period of great change on both sides. For example, the Primaris line is set to break the traditional "Deathwing is always terminator armour" paradigm while 30k lore is set to break open that the Deathwing fielded power armoured units. Heck, Assault Intercessors line up real well with the Stormwing if one wants to reach for it. The Ravenwing are less drastic because bikes-to-bigger-bikes is less novel. Yet it's a great example of what we can expect in the short to medium term.

 

2nd edition onward is a great example to look at for what we can expect. First comes a model then comes special paint jobs and rules then come special units. You can't have Deathwing Knights without Deathwing Terminators and you can't have Deathwing Terminators without Terminators. Case in point: Ravenwing Outriders exist because Outriders now exist. Space Wolves were given an example of "losing" so many unique kits; but those unique kits were only done after the post-2nd ed. core space marine range was completed. Dark Angel unique kits were likewise only done after. 

 

Would it be nice if there was indication "Primaris Terminators" (and thus "Primaris Deathwing Terminators") will eventually be a thing? Sure, but it's understandable that such an action would be terrible from a business perspective. If the answer is no, then outrage. If the answer is yes and soon, then current sales drop off. If the answer is yes and later, then a mix of outrage and sales dropping off.

 

As it is, we're going through a time of upheaval - lore-wise and minis-wise - and we should try to fame it positively. No one at FW or GW is looking to ruin the Dark Angels, betray or anger Dark Angel players. While we might disagree with what we are given, we should acknowledge that it came with, at the very least, neutral, or more likely, good intentions.

 

 

It occurs to me that there is a solid Primaris core forming up to fit a Dreadwing themed force made up of Eradicators, plasma Inceptors, Hellblasters, Repulsor Executioners, las fusil Eliminators, and such. It has taken a whole game edition, but the variety of units is building.

 

The entire reason a "Dreadwing themed force" can be considered is because of new, previously non-existent lore. Just this tiniest addition to the lore created a fervour for more. Fans expressed their desire to see more of this uniquely First Legion thing reflected in how the 40k Dark Angels operate. If the Bladeguard are any indication, we're actually going to see that whenever the next iteration of the Dark Angels codex comes out. Or maybe not, as the Fall of Caliban and split into chapters is a great excuse to complete separate the Chapter from the Legion.

[shabbadoo]

I  beg some indulgence here... 

 

Okay everyone, let's all remember a very important point regarding the modern era of Space Marines compared to previous editions. The Horus Heresy Forge World and Black Library books are the foundation for modern characterization of the First Founding Chapters (the White Scars as of Index Astartes had 7 pages of fluff and 1 page of rules and look at them now). And guess who didn't have their FW book yet or receive a cohesive narrative from BL in/by 2017? Dark Angels.  Guess what exists now in 2020? A FW book for Dark Angels. So yeah, we are on the verge of a totally new era for Dark Angels.

 

This out of nowhere Deathwing Blade Guard reveal really guts the Deathwing like a fish, and puts us on the verge of a totally new era for Dark Angels.

"Out of nowhere?" This is the Dark Angels reaping what was sown. We know the Deathwing Companions are a thing. The Bladeguard are almost an identical unit.

 

I am only opposed to B.S. explanations like this one, because... https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Marneus-Calgar-2018

 

And because it is also surely B.S. that the Horus Heresy books set the tone for all things later. Things changed later. The Blood Angels didn't have their whole Sanguinius Black Rage thing until *after* the Heresy. Wulfen didn't exist until *after* the Heresy. The Deathwing being organized to go into battle only in TDA wasn't a thing until *after* the Heresy. Lots of things didn't exist until *after* the Heresy, so stuff for the Heresy sure as heck does not set the tone for modern stuff. Really consider Blade Guard.

 

- Do the Dark Angels have a non-Primaris unit like this? No.

- Do Blood Angels? Yes, and it flies!

- Do Dark Angels even have an Honour Guard type of unit? No.

- Does...literally...every other Chapter? Yes.

- Were the Blade Guard patterned after a Horus Heresy era Dark Angels unit? No.

- Were the Blade Guard created for Guilliman's Ultramarines? Yes. Literally at Guilliman's direction.

- Were the Blade Guard patterned *EXACTLY* off of an existing Ultrmarines unit? Oh no, Guilliman couldn't be influenced by such things...

 

Dark Angels are not exactly the poster boys for Blade Guard. If you want to know who is, that would be Ultramarines. I think I can barely see and hear some Black Templars players jumping up and down in back of the crowd saying, "Don't forget about us!" I haven't, but you are not the inspiration (but I can't wait to see some nicely painted Black Templars Blade Guard ).

 

So now Dark Angels will have non-TDA Deathwing Blade Guard, and they are new. What is not new, and what is not some sort of opium fever dream is that, for nigh on 30 years of fluff across *SEVEN* game editions, the 1st Company has gone into battle exclusively in TDA. So, "out of nowhere" is a legitimate statement. And the Blade Guard are not some sort of throw-back unit. They are a *NEW* unit, and they are not a unit that the Dark Angels put into the field. They were created *at Guilliman's direction*, and the Ultramarines put them into the field. Then Blade Guard were given to other Chapters, including the Dark Angels. The Dark Angels put them through whatever trials they required, and have now incorporated them into the Deathwing, to the purpose for which the unit was created/equipped in the first place.

 

It is simple. Blade Guard are new. *NEW* That's it. No B.S. window dressing required.

 

In closing, I don't want to come off as picking on anybody, but I've been reading a lot of (too much probably) B.S. explanations on the internet about how normal it supposedly is for there to be power armored Deathwing, and they have just annoyed me. There, I have vented.

Edited June 21, 2020 by shabbadoo

[Berzul]

Vent away. I kinda agree, myself.

 

I do not expect ant explanation from GW gor any new primaris being anything more that a "Because we said so, that's why".

 

And I dont mean that in an angey way. Just a "meh" way. I dont expect more. I know the game will just have these, and they will be there, even if it doesnt make sense.

[Berzul]

How do you guys think Grim Resolve will work now?

 

Might it become useful more often?

 

I remembera friend telling me morale was now supposed to be with counting all wounds suffered thus far in the battle, not just models lost in the round.

 

That means even smaller squads might be checking morale now. Having no penalizers might be pretty handy

[jaxom]

 

In closing, I don't want to come off as picking on anybody, but I've been reading a lot of (too much probably) B.S. explanations on the internet about how normal it supposedly is for there to be power armored Deathwing, and they have just annoyed me. There, I have vented.

 

No worries, a good vent is a-okay. I'm definitely on the more accepting side when it comes to novelty with the Dark Angels. I don't agree with some of the details of what you wrote, but your stance on the matter is understandable.

 

How do you guys think Grim Resolve will work now?

 

Might it become useful more often?

 

I remembera friend telling me morale was now supposed to be with counting all wounds suffered thus far in the battle, not just models lost in the round.

 

That means even smaller squads might be checking morale now. Having no penalizers might be pretty handy

 

I've always found Grim Resolve to be useful because it let me snake more squads into aura ranges. I've gone entire games with every unit in range of an LT and Stoic Prosecution. Larger squads means getting more out of Overwatch stratagem, the Anti-Fall Back stratagem, any stratagem that doesn't increase with models effected, providing protection for characters (three casualties and 5 man squad can't anymore, one casualty and a 3 man squad can't anymore). 

[Isual]

I wonder how "grim resolve", atsknf and "inner cricle" will convert to the new morale rules.

[Angel of Solitude]

I would imagine it as follows:

 

ATSKNF - re-roll the morale check as it is now

Grim Resolve - never suffer combat attrition

Inner Circle - always pass morale as it is now

[jaxom]

I don't think ATSKNF and Inner Circle will change. I could see Grim Resolve simply, "Units with this rule do not need to role for Combat Attrition," or if they want to have something then, "Units with this rule can re-roll the dice when rolling for Combat Attrition."

 

The Strategic Reserve rules open up some interesting options for delivering units. Walk a unit of Devastators or Aggressors onto the board into a Stoic Persecution aura (the Chaplain having worked his way up the flank) could be very nasty.

[Angel of Solitude]

Ravenwing Bike Squad with Combi-melta, 2xmeltagun and attack bike with multimelta would be an interesting back field armour/artillery threat, with a healthy dose of AP-1 bolter shots to boot!

[Isual]

I really hope they change inner circle/deathwing in the next iteration of the codex or the beginning of the next edition. Characters don't do morale anyways (neither do the Dreadnought/Landraider with the stratagem)  and Terminators should be fine with ATSKNF + grim resolve.

[Berzul]

Ravenwing Bike Squad with Combi-melta, 2xmeltagun and attack bike with multimelta would be an interesting back field armour/artillery threat, with a healthy dose of AP-1 bolter shots to boot!

That is literally my ravenwing squad, right now. If they were a threat to my opponents in 8th (and they were, oh boy, they were), then now in 9th, entering the board from the edges? I can't hardly wait!!

[Master Sheol]

Ravenwing Bike Squad with Combi-melta, 2xmeltagun and attack bike with multimelta would be an interesting back field armour/artillery threat, with a healthy dose of AP-1 bolter shots to boot!

It's not possible if they don't adress the fact that RW sgts cannot take combiweapons

[Berzul]

 

 

Ravenwing Bike Squad with Combi-melta, 2xmeltagun and attack bike with multimelta would be an interesting back field armour/artillery threat, with a healthy dose of AP-1 bolter shots to boot!

It's not possible if they don't adress the fact that RW sgts cannot take combiweapons

There was a whole discussion I started on this a few months back.

 

FInal answer was: Index applies unless in a tournament and if the TO does not allow ir

[Master Sheol]

 

 

 

Ravenwing Bike Squad with Combi-melta, 2xmeltagun and attack bike with multimelta would be an interesting back field armour/artillery threat, with a healthy dose of AP-1 bolter shots to boot!

It's not possible if they don't adress the fact that RW sgts cannot take combiweapons

There was a whole discussion I started on this a few months back.

 

FInal answer was: Index applies unless in a tournament and if the TO does not allow ir

I usually stay with codex to avoid problems with opponents

It's not the lack of a combiplasma on my biker sgt the big problem IMHO

[aura_enchanted]

ephreal stern seems like an ideal tech in unit for matches against chaos demons the deathwing sort of form a security detail around stern allowing certain key targets to pass through and then stern puts them on blast with her outlandish damage output vs chaos

Edited June 26, 2020 by aura_enchanted

[ValourousHeart]

ephreal stern seems like an ideal tech in unit for matches against chaos demons the deathwing sort of form a security detail around stern allowing certain key targets to pass through and then stern puts them on blast with her outlandish damage output vs chaos

 

Yeah and over in the Sister forum they are talking about including Cypher in a list with her so that she is always getting her 3+ / 7+ Smite vs everyone.

[jaxom]

 

ephreal stern seems like an ideal tech in unit for matches against chaos demons the deathwing sort of form a security detail around stern allowing certain key targets to pass through and then stern puts them on blast with her outlandish damage output vs chaos

 

Yeah and over in the Sister forum they are talking about including Cypher in a list with her so that she is always getting her 3+ / 7+ Smite vs everyone.

 

 

Wait, what?