Tyranids in 9th Ed - Tactica

[Xenith]

Hi all,
 
I thought I'd start a thread to get the wheels turning for how Tyranids will operate in 9th ed. So far we know about tanks/monsters, and blast rules.

 

I think 'Nids will be served well from this edition, despite no longer being able to tie up anks like they used to.

 

Carnifexes wil be interesting, with a dakkafex being able to advance, make 24 shots, charge, and keep shooting in combat. If the enemy thinks they can stop an acid spray tyrannofex from shooting by assaulting it, think again, as they'll eat acid twice on the charge and then twice in the next shooting phase. In fact, people will probably not charge them at all!

 

What else can you think of?

 

Summary:
 
Tanks/Monsters

 

- notes by Joe#0064 on the Warhammer 40K Discord.
 
 
 
- tanks can now shoot into combat. They may engage units within an inch as well. -1 to hit if you're shooting with your Tank/Monster at something you're in combat with. You can't fire blast weapons either.
 
- reasons for change; as an example, it was frustrating and immersion breaking that a Nurgling could stop a Land Raider firing in combat. Ultimately, for balance and narrative reasons.
 
- Monsters benefit from the changes to fighting in buildings; e.g. a squad of Guardsman on the first floor is no longer safe from the Hive Tyrant eye-level to them.
 
- Stu Black; "Tyranids and Imperial Guard will benefit greatly from the new rules. In general, anything that is a mechanised force or able to field plenty of monsters."
 
- "sticking a model together because it looks great" is less of an issue now. Specialised / general loadouts on models are much more useful.
 
- the changes should encourage more dynamic / mobile play, as opposed to "WW1 bunkers engaging each other at a distance."
 
- challenges; changes to terrain make it harder to get a clear view of the battlefield, so units will need to move around more.
 
- -1 to hit for moving and firing a heavy weapon only applies to infantry.
 
- Stu Black; "with the new CP / Detachments I think we'll see more vehicle/monster-heavy armies as a result."
 
- Eddie Eccles; "people have rightfully pointed out that the Land Raider (and variants) will benefit greatly from the changes."

 

Blast Weapons:

 

Overwatch

Overwatch is now a stratagem, not a right. Unless they have the natural ability to, overwatch is 1cp and can be used once per phase in matched play. Some buildings can be used to improve overwatch ability, some units can gain the ability to OW in a Crusade development campaign. 

 

Terrain

Terrain can be obscuring, so no LOS can be drawn through it, some offer other advantages.

Defensible

 

Crusade Skills

 

 

 

 Possibly real lst of BLAST weapons.

 

Point Changes:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-orE6HSrv3zYnI5UfXgctcSuezpLf7fK8F_8nR1M2KA/htmlview?pru=AAABc3HzgBE*t7RiB7QJgakfbMebzj-Lfg#

Edited July 14, 2020 by Xenith

[Redcomet]

Without seeing the entire rules set, and the points changes, it is really difficult to guess and theorize.

 

But a few thoughts:

 

Changes to monsters and shooting means a varied weapon build isn’t completely bad. 
 

Smaller tables means shorter distance for melee.

 

Terrain and cover changes could potentially be big. 
 

The boast weapon/horde interaction, could maybe make the tyranid warrior a viable choice to mountains of gaunts.

[Azekai]

I think hordes are going to be bad, barring some massive rebalancing to the deadliness of the overall game.

 

I think rippers are still going to be alright, as improved terrain rules will probably make them more survivable and maybe even untargetable in some situations.

 

Hopefully carnifex can also hide in cover, as their lack of Invuln save makes them fairly easy to pick off.

 

I think genestealers are going to become niche. The standard method of ensuring their survival, wrapping and tagging, seems to be going out the window, which means they will likely charge, kill their target, and then almost certainly die the following turn to return fire.

[Spacecow]

So far the rules change has made me optimistic. And to be fair that tank change was long overdue.

 

I do believe that they’ll try and adapt rules so nid players will be nudged playing with more monsters instead of the genestealers list. We already saw more stratagems for them in Blood of Baal.

 

It’ll be interesting to see their point changes. I hope for a lowering of most of the stuff!

 

Fingers crossed we’ll get an update soon after the launch rather than later.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Spacecow

[The Pounder]

So the new overwatch rules were commented on today.

 

Overwatch is no longer a given! Units will have to pay CP to take advantage of it!

 

Also different terrain features can help too.

 

To my mind this a fantastic change.

 

Most of our smaller melee bugs have a hard time getting into combat and are usually diminished by the time they start to fight.

 

Hopefully this’ll give us a boost!

[Xenith]

Indeed, with only generally one unit able to OW, we should be good - added new sections to OP with more WarCom data.

[Guest Triszin]

I'm really looking forward to tervigons. Rwar

[tychobi]

Smaller maps and effective terrain are great for swarmy and pals. I really hope they do not price out gaunts and other low end infantry too badly. 50% hike to cultists is scary. Lets hope carnifex and tyrants are not totally stymied by standing on a shipping crate!

[jgascoine011]

The changes to force org are really going to screw nids over.

Lots of nids good units are in the HQ, heavy and elites sections.

Elites is not too bad because you can have a few spaces there and only one or 2 good units, but max 3 HQ and Heavy support hurts.

 

Hopefully when the new dex drops so things get moved about.

[Alcyon]

Charging after falling back is getting a nerf as apparently falling back is now a stratagem that costs CP. Kraken takes a bit of a hit there.

 

Given Azekai's comment on Genestealers I've been thinking about a Jormungandr list; since their defensive bonus doesn't apply when advancing, Genestealers don't seem like a great choice there anyway. You could build a fairly strong firebase to deploy turn 1 (Exocrine, Tyrannofex, Hive Guard, Biovores) and then plan to attack out of deep strike turn 2 with Trygon Primes dropping Hormagaunts with the Arachnacyte Gland → Hive Instinct combo. As long as your charge target is something like a big screen, you could combo that even further with other deep striking units like Raveners since they don't need to be anywhere near the Trygon, just within 9" of the target.

The limits on daisy-chaining with the new unit coherency rules should make it harder to block deep strike. Also opens up options like using a Lictor to bring in Pyrovores or Zoanthropes to fix their range issues, or Trygons bringing Warriors - though you might not even need the guide since you can just come on from a board edge. We'll have to see how much PL/points shift and how much CP it costs to put those units into reserve. 

[Xenith]

Added possibl blast weapons to the list, basically anything random, so barbed stranglers, stranglethorns, venon and heavy venom cannons.

 

Annyoyingly, bio plasma is there. I'm 99% sure I read somewhere that carnifexes would be able to plasma spit in combat...which they could as a monster, but not now it's a blast...

[Spacecow]

So the points ‘leaked’. Feel a bit deflated considering most unit points went up. :/

 

Not quite sure how a 1750-2k p army will hold up.

 

Most other stuff went up too, so it might not be so bad?

 

Are we just all going to play with larger point value armies?

 

Are nids officially garbage tier now?

[The Pounder]

I know what you mean, I was expecting a slight pts drop. Like you said all other factions had an increase too so we’ll have to wait and see.

 

I reckon 2000pts will still be the most common limit for pick up matched play games.

 

I feel we’ll have to evolve or die.

 

Moving forward I’m going to try a more elite build with lots of big bugs and Warriors. Hive Guard and Exocrines will still probably be an auto include.

 

We need to experiment and do plenty of play testing. Might not be as bad as it feels atm.

[jbaeza94]

Well slow down there. All across the forums /fb I'm seeing people complaining about how their army is now pointless and worthless because they're too expensive. While my 2k list is not 2k anymore, neither is anyone else's. We can always scale points to make the armies as big as we did before

[Spacecow]

I didn’t mean to be overly negative. I’m sorry if it came across that way. Last thing I want is give people the feeling it’s a cesspool in here too :/

 

I do think I hit a couple of your points in my questions.

 

It’s just that we weren’t in a super good place to start with but it was still ok.

 

With all the new space marines coming out and necrons with adapted new cool rules and stats ( which is great and I have 0 issues with) I’m worried how the bugs will hold up.

 

In essence dropping points to infinity isn’t the solution when it’s the unit rules themselves that need attention.

Some increases for units aren’t the end of the world, others are severely limiting and certain others are just enhancing the feeling of never taking that unit ever again :p

 

Having slept on it, I guess playing 2.5k army instead of the 2k to come at the same isn’t the end of the world.

But from a more competitive view, I do hope that new codex is coming soon.

 

On a positive note: I do like the faq addition to old one eye. Contemplating a fex built at this point.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Spacecow

[Xenith]

Added points change document to OP.

 

Seems ok to me. Points increases are in line with eveything else, though it's hard to see any winners. Nids seem hard done by, but then many other armies are too.

 

Termagants are 1pt more, not too band and in line with others.

 

Stealers had 2 pairs of rending claws right? So they go from 14 to 15ppm, which is ok.

 

Unfortunately it seems like Codex: Genestealers again.

[Reigart]

There are a number of things I've been considering that I need to see played out.  Here are some thoughts on units that could be interesting:

 

• Carnifexes:  Shooting into combat means these could be really fun and more versatile before.  Some meta-speculators have said a dakka fex (devourers) with and acid maw might be interesting.  That's a lot of shots while packing some good AP in the fight phase.   I still want to see how scything talon/and gun fexes do. Regardless of the loadout, carnifexes might be a way to hold objectives (I believe the scoring on some stuff in 9th happens at the beginning of the round, not the end...meaning something needs to survive to hold and score).  Also, monsters will be able to swing vertically...a welcome change.
• Warriors: In units of 3, these could be a way to MSU while having a good amount of wounds.  Also, let's not forget, a large unit of 9 with some of the Blood of Baal stuff, like ignoring ap -1 and -2 and reducing damage could be a nice way to draw fire.  If the excel sheet linked above is true, then warriors did not go up by points by much.  Some interesting hive fleets could be levianthan for FNP (but on a large unit of warriors, catalyst would be fun) or even Jormungandur, which will allow them to benefit from cover (which will get clarified I'm guessing) and their warlord trait allows units within 3 to ignore cover...in an edition when cover will supposedly mean a lot, warriors may be the punch to cause some problems...
• Sporocysts: Speaking of cover... this unit could also have some fun.  As we saw in the fortification update from WARCOM that fortification detachments get CP cost of 0 (effectively) if the warlord is from the same faction.  The Sporocyst has always intrigued me.  I was drawn to Tyranids for my love of Starcraft, Starship Troopers and Aliens.  These where the sunken colonies of 40K... instead of creep, they spread synapse.   Anyways, the new SM and Necron fortifications might be getting terrain special rules...I wonder if the Sporocyst will also get some.  Even if it doesn't, it's weapon options include blast weapons... Barbed stranglers also get +1 to hit on units over 10.  This is an interesting choice for volume of shots that can also give some board control while spawning mines.

Another thing I wanted to share is that flamers and their type are not blast weapons.  When I first heard about blast weapons, I was assuming any randomly generated shots and thought our hordes were immediately screwed...especially with ad mech (another of my armies) getting flying chicken men with barbeque roasters.  I think we lucked out in that aspect.

 

I wanted to share some thoughts to get some reaction and further the discussion.  In a weird way, I really like the fact that people are writing off nids.  It just means victory will be so much more sweeter.

[Perry]

I've never paid much attention to Sporocysts, but they look fun with Barbed Stranglers, but is it worth sacrificing 120ish points to road block an objective?

 

Is there a reason why top players don't include them?

[tychobi]

I think nids weathered the points hike very well. In the games around here early charges and no losses to morale have been big. Hormigaunts hopping all over and the gunfex point blank shooting those foolish enough to charge as well. Space marines will still be a challenge.

[Reigart]

True be told, Sporocysts are a niche play. Going against them before was a couple of things -

 

1. Fortification networks did not give any CP, so in competitive lists you were limited to 2 other detachments to gice you CP... and it meant that you also had only one other detachment to be a different hive fleet if you wanted. Granted, the max detachments haven't changed, but the purpose of the detachments will be more focused on army comp, not CP maxing.

 

2. There were other, better choices for the meta. Genestealer slingshots were popular and due to their cost and fragility, competitive lists would have maybe 60 genestealers and the support to flush it out (broodlord, swarmlord, hive guard)

 

3. The Sporocyst was not able to target units that would charge it. It had a rule to shoot its weapons (except spore launcher) even if their were enemies with 1" but there was no rule that allowed it to target units within 1". So deploying it aggressively or on its own meant you hoped it did something before being locked down.

 

4. It's damage output is swingy. 2 of the 3 weapon options are random number of shots. Also its BS is 5... meaning you'd only take it if you were great at rolling... or you would dedicate it anti swarm units (to take advantage of barbed stranglers +1 to hit). Now, 2 of those 3 options are blast...which maybe helpful if some people take units that it can target (guardsmen?).

 

Ideally Kronos makes sense for these things. I have an itch in my brain that wants to try 3 sporocysts and biovores for annoying broad control.

[Malakithe]

The #1 reason to take Sporocysts is to pump out friendly huggable MW balloons that happily flood the board with area denial. Then you combo that with the ugliest living weapon who also pumps out happy balloon friends.

 

All your opponents shooting will be dedicated to removing the balloons or risk death by explosive hugs all the while the rest of your list is doing whatever it does.

[Xenith]

There are a number of things I've been considering that I need to see played out.  Here are some thoughts on units that could be interesting:

 

• Carnifexes:  Shooting into combat means these could be really fun and more versatile before.  Some meta-speculators have said a dakka fex (devourers) with and acid maw might be interesting.  That's a lot of shots while packing some good AP in the fight phase.  

 

I think that enhanced senses will still win out here - the dakkafex will be hitting on 5+ in combat without it, I think that's more valuable than AP-3 (I think) on the acid maw. 

[Reigart]

That's a fair point.

 

I do wonder about hive tyrants without wings. They might see a resurgence due to points and nerfing of fly. Which could be fun to get their psychic powers (2) and invulerable save en masse on the battlefield.

 

Assuming that spreadhseet is true, a potential combo of neurothropes (no change), zoanthropes (up 5ppm) and maleceptors (up 10 ppm) could give a surprising composition. Biovores went back to 50 meaning the mortal wound output could be a fun way to play.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Reigart

[Xenith]

That's a fair point.

 

I do wonder about hive tyrants without wings. They might see a resurgence due to points and nerfing of fly. Which could be fun to get their psychic powers (2) and invulerable save en masse on the battlefield.

 

Assuming that spreadhseet is true, a potential combo of neurothropes (no change), zoanthropes (up 5ppm) and maleceptors (up 10 ppm) could give a surprising composition. Biovores went back to 50 meaning the mortal wound output could be a fun way to play.

 

A Hive Tyrant with venom cannon, lash whip and bone sword is an iconic 40k unit to me, so i'm hoping it will be viable on the tabletop!

 

Monstrous rending claws are at 0 points still, which is by far the best weapon on the HT, so he has the advantage. HVC and twin Brainleech worm devs ar both 20pts, so walkrans should be coming in at around 175pts. It's ok, but they still really needed the change to under 10 wounds so they can't be targeted. Two of them for 350 is nasty though. 

[Reigart]

It could be fun to sport a nid force with good invulnerable saves (E.g., HTs, maleceptors, zoans).  The key, as you pointed out, would be ensuring builds on HTs and potentially carnifexes that allow multiple to be fielded for redundancy.  Invulnerable saves are nice, but by no means do they prevent damage.  They might mitigate some allowing the army to survive a bit longer.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Reigart