Thousand Sons: 9th Edition Faction Focus Discussion

[Prot]

Here's something that I think will allay some fears (I know it helped me a bit.):

 

 

This will help us for sure being a very HQ heavy Faction:

 

Plus the new Article on Thousand Sons going into 9th: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/01/faction-focus-thousand-sons/

 

 

^Pretty straightforward so far....

 

What do you folks think?

Edited July 1, 2020 by Prot

[The Yncarne]

I’m assuming deny the witch is a psychic action, but the above doesn’t seem to validate my assumption. What other potential psychic actions am I missing?

[brother_b]

It almost seems like the psychic action is related to a secondary objective. Are the rules for using psychic powers also rolled up into the psychic actions?

[The Yncarne]

I'm wondering the need for a new label called "psychic actions" if the only actions are manifest or deny a power. However, the wording above suggests psychic actions are exclusive of manifesting a power.

 

The fact that a psychic check needs to be made to perform a psychic action suggests to me that this wouldn't affect mission parameters, but I'l find out in a few weeks. 

[WarriorFish]

I think these are related to the mission or some such? Like the mental interrogation one that gains Victory Points, could be one of the secondaries and that.

 

This is good as it gets Magnus on the table, we can probably guess what the "Supreme Commander" is doing. Does leave the question of what other armies do with their SHs but at least this is one question answered suitably :) You'll need those Command Points to put Magnus in Strategic Reserve :P

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Psychic actions will work exactly like psychic powers but will award VP instead of other game related bonuses. I like it. But having to chose will be tough since we are so dependant on using our psychic powers to kill stuff.

[Raven1]

It almost seems like the psychic action is related to a secondary objective. Are the rules for using psychic powers also rolled up into the psychic actions?

There is one going about. Mental Interrogation VP for a successful power which is explained in the rules.

 

 

While it's great detachment refunds CP, my issue is the unit has to be your warlord. It doesn't seem to allow knights and if you use Magnus you lose the full benefit of Psychic Awakening as you can use the cult relic.

[Mordas]

So if we take Magnus in that detachment we get free CP based on the rest of the list, but he has to be our warlord which means we will lose cult relics as they have to be from the same cult as our warlord?

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

So if we take Magnus in that detachment we get free CP based on the rest of the list, but he has to be our warlord which means we will lose cult relics as they have to be from the same cult as our warlord?

pretty much!

[Raven1]

So if we take Magnus in that detachment we get free CP based on the rest of the list, but he has to be our warlord which means we will lose cult relics as they have to be from the same cult as our warlord?

You dont get free CP. The additional CP you get is equal to what you pay for the patrol/battalion/brigade detachment.

 

Remeber those CPs arent being refunded because you warlord isnt in them.

[WarriorFish]

I'm guessing/hoping the Cults thing will be addressed in the Codex Errata?

[Raven1]

I'm guessing/hoping the Cults thing will be addressed in the Codex Errata?

 

I hope so, I'm going to look for it but if it's not there I wont be surprised.

[Prot]

I'm trying to figure out if a "Psychic Action" is the same as casting a Psychic power, just with Victory points assigned to successes. The weird part is you can't have advanced, retreated, or anything else really... you can't even be engaged. I hope that's just referring to the secondaries and not psychic testing throughout the game.

[Skerr]

I know it will make more sense when we see more actions though is Mental Interrogating just a way of scoring VP for basic psychic dueling, if an opponent is there to deny?

 

I also wonder if other actions offer other benefits other than vp, maybe added values to spell characteristics or maybe summoning is an action now, for example.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

So actions to me are all tied into VP. They were explained as such no?

[Raven1]

So actions to me are all tied into VP. They were explained as such no?

 

Even if it wasn't explained I think it's a fair assumption.

 

Certainly better that your units have to do something.  The problem with ITC is an army like Iron Hands could literally sit and shoot.  Get a points for Kill, Kill more (unlikely to take more a damage than opponent) hold, and probably hold more, and things secondaries like engineers all require nothing beyond roll dice reasonably well.

 

If we have to now sacrifice other actions to complete Primary and/or Secondary objectives players will have to think more about how, when, where, and why they move units, target units, and use abilities.

 

The game could very well get less killy if you have to give up shooting or a charge or such to "complete an action" to get VP.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Raven1

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

 

 

So actions to me are all tied into VP. They were explained as such no?

Even if it wasn't explained I think it's a fair assumption.

 

Certainly better that your units have to do something. The problem with ITC is an army like Iron Hands could literally sit and shoot. Get a points for Kill, Kill more (unlikely to take more a damage than opponent) hold, and probably hold more, and things secondaries like engineers all require nothing beyond roll dice reasonably well.

 

If we have to now sacrifice other actions to complete Primary and/or Secondary objectives players will have to think more about how, when, where, and why they move units, target units, and use abilities.

 

The game could very well get less killy if you have to give up shooting or a charge or such to "complete an action" to get VP.

Thats what sells it for me.

Sure you can table me in 3 to 4 turns. But if im leading by 10 VP, do you want to?

[Prot]

I'm okay with 'less killy' games. I honestly get so bored of ITC because of the way it went (most games). The ability to hold board control and win is a good thing for me. 

 

For instance I had my first game VS. Tau in 9th edition last night. Full  rules, new mission, etc.  The Tau were super annoying as usual, and easily just as powerful, BUT they have to move now, AND they have to protect their characters. The move part isn't that hard for them, especially now but it puts them closer to us as a result. The Character protection is an issue.

 

The Tau, (actually all of us) must use more screening. Even so, I shot Shadowsun's head off in T2. You could say she didn't have enough....sun screen?!?! (que all the groaning here.)

 

No, I wasn't playing Thousand Sons. Frankly I'm afraid to. I was hoping we would have the 'can't take more than 4 wounds off per phase' rule for Magnus. And on top of it the complications from using him are really hard to tolerate. 

 

But as I played this game I was very much thinking of my Thousand Sons. The Psychic "Actions" aren't something I can understand.

 

I played the "Warp Craft" Secondary. Which does include actions. But when you start an action you can't move/advance/shoot/or anything really. So some of the actions have a "start" and "End". Most start at end of movement, but that's when psychics start.

 

I chose the Warp secondary that gives me 3 VP for each time I cast a power within 18" of an opponent. But I had to make up how this works because of my uncertainty. How I did it was, I moved, then did 2 Psychic casts, declaring the second cast would be my "start of the Warp Action". For the full turn, and my opponent's I would treat it like the old ITC "Engineers" rule and hope no one assaulted me and I did not shoot of course. It was weird, and felt awkward.

 

So lastly I was much more cautious about the psychic phase in general. Don't quote me on this (it was a long night with lots of rules tweaks) but I believe I could not cast while engaged, or after a retreat?

 

Also of note a Command Reroll is always the total dice roll. So a perils on double six, now could often turn into a fail. A  failed test on a dice roll of a 5 and a 1, would often just be another fail. It's something to keep in mind.

 

I've played about 3 games of 9th with the new rules set, and I haven't pulled out Thousand Sons yet. What is really bugging me overall is for fun I used try to get 3 of our Cults in play. Now getting 1 is about it. Maybe a Supreme Command with Ahriman/DP/Sorc can do the Magic one, and pick your utility one for a Battalion.

 

I think the good news is our troops. I am seeing from the missions and secondaries... this is the methodology they've used to enforce troops. (Since most will take 1 detachment or a S.C. plus detachment.)  We need those numbers not only for scoring, but trust me.... it's a huge adjustment with the characters. It's like an older edition come back to life in that way.

 

So I'm seeing one of two things: A wall of infantry: Be it Rubrics, or Goats (ugh) or we get back into Monstrous Creatures/Vehicles.  I can't stress how easy it is to lose characters now. Not dong this properly is giving away Ahriman, and in our case most likely the game. Most of Chaos as we know is character -centric, but this is a lot of stress on those lynchpin units for Thousand Sons.

 

I'm still trying to sort out the Psychic Phase though, as well as the secondary "action".

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

@Prot, what is your confusion with the psychic phase and secondary actions specifically.

[Archaeinox]

It doesn't look like we can put DPs and Ahriman/Sorc in Supreme anymore though, right

[Raven1]

It doesn't look like we can put DPs and Ahriman/Sorc in Supreme anymore though, right

 

It depends on what the "Supreme Commander" definition is.  Is it certain named characters?  Is it certain HQ choices?  I mean heck with there was a 0-1 on Supreme Commanders and a Supreme Commander definition included Demon Princes.

 

As much as I want to plan for the future,  most of the time I feel like I just can't until I get the full rules and certain definitions as well as points costs.

[Prot]

@Prot, what is your confusion with the psychic phase and secondary actions specifically.

 

"Actions" for secondaries seem to indicate I can't kill anything. This is in place of a normal test, but acts just like a psychic test otherwise.

 

So what I've come to conclude is.... that this test is not a 'real' power. It's simply passing a test on a WC 4. (your opponent can deny it).  But you can't kill anyone with this test, or cast any actual power this turn. 

 

Not only that but it stops you from having an aura (all Actions do this). 

 

So It really looks stinky to me. I thought it would be something that let your Psyker cast a power... and the success of that power would still result in a kill or result in a buff, or whatnot. But I don't think that's how it works. 

 

If the way I'm reading it is correct, your psyker gets to a specified area (one is 6" of center, and another is within18" of an opponent's character) and 'pretends' to cast a power that has no real result, forgoes doing anything else, and collects a few VP for it. 

 

Considering how hard it is for us to get characters in an army now (really disappointing for me) this would be relegated to something like a Tzaangor Shaman but even then he loses his aura for doing so. 

 

 

It doesn't look like we can put DPs and Ahriman/Sorc in Supreme anymore though, right

 

No it doesn't... but as mentioned we haven't been able to confirm what a Supreme Command unit is.

 

It does look fantastically difficult for Chaos Space Marines/Death Guard/Thousand Sons to get the necessary characters in the game.

 

Not only that, but after my last game we have to remember we are really lucky to have an 'ignore perils' Strat because the command Re Roll strat is always all the dice involved in the roll. Which I found stinks.

 

Again, I'm not too sure how good or bad this is. Chaos generally uses the psychic phase to make amends for the horrible unit types we typically have to buff to make 'playable'. But if you are generally stuck at 3 HQ's total, or forced to take Magnus as Warlord... .that is really tough.

 

Not to mention how much more difficult I'm finding keeping my Chaos characters from being shot to death. They need to be -near- the action, unlike Castle Characters. But you take the new Coherency rules, combined with Look Out Sir, and those characters are a lot harder to keep alive.

 

That was a lesson I learned quickly. However Scarab Occult might become a real thing. I have no idea at this point, but Rubrics too. Rubrics in a forest (light terrain) are great. 

 

Don't mean to be too negative, so I apologize, but I've had about 4 games of 9th edition so far, so still lots to learn, however I am finding I have swapped from believing this to be a 'pro-assault' shift in the meta to a 'mid range shooting' kind of game. 

 

BTW: Tau still look very, very good which goes in the face of what I originally thought. 

 

Another note on units that I liked from my Black Legion game for a Thousand Sons perspetive:

- Heldrake. Fantastic. This went from dud to stud. Ran into a Riptide in 2 turns (no one like to shoot at them.) and saved the rest of my army from getting completely unloaded on for 1 game turn. (I wish it could have been 2 turns, but trust me, the -1 to hit from heavies on a Riptide into a Heldrake for one turn didn't change it's killing output much at all.)

 

I think you have to view the Heldrake as a hail mary unit.

 

- Termies. (wish we could take plasma since the rules change). Termies as a body guard are decent, but again in squads over 5....be away of coherency. It's a nasty new rule that absolutely punishes expensive/elite mid to large size units.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Thanks Prot but in a game where VPs will matter, i still think actions are a good thing but i havent played a game yet.

[Archaeinox]

I watched the Tabletop Tactics 9th ed batrep and they were hyping up the possibility of really cool changes and adjustments, specifically with how powerful marines are currently. 

 

Besides points, I'm not sure what to expect there but again they seem genuinely excited for FAQ/Errata day 1.

 

Without that info I really don't have much to say about what I've seen for 9th. I like Crusade but no one will play that with me. Everyone is pretty much pedal to the metal on ITC type play. I want to like the missions but the dynamics of the army (and others) will have to show itself before I make a more valid dissection of them

Edited July 6, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Prot]

Thanks Prot but in a game where VPs will matter, i still think actions are a good thing but i havent played a game yet.

 

You're right, VP's matter. But there's several avenues to gain these. I would suggest having one of your (very limited it appears) Psychic Characters standing in a corner committed to an action for the turn has proven to be incredibly wasteful. 

 

Since there are several categories to gain VP's, the 'action' type are the most... difficult, and least offensive to do (they will never get you a kill, where perhaps grabbing a table quarter will.)

 

You can 'raise a banner' type of action.. spending the turn to do so, but that can be done with  cultists, so it's far less punishing to do so.

 

Regardless, I can tell you for the time being I won't be touching the Warp actions secondary again unless there's something I'm (quite possibly) missing.

 

 

I watched the Tabletop Tactics 9th ed batrep and they were hyping up the possibility of really cool changes and adjustments, specifically with how powerful marines are currently. 

 

Besides points, I'm not sure what to expect there but again they seem genuinely excited for FAQ/Errata day 1.

 

Without that info I really don't have much to say about what I've seen for 9th. I like Crusade but no one will play that with me. Everyone is pretty much pedal to the metal on ITC type play. I want to like the missions but the dynamics of the army (and others) will have to show itself before I make a more valid dissection of them

 

Well we know GW want to sell those new Astartes. So they can have the first 3 months of 9th edition. Then...  we'll see.

 

Also me and my main group of players are definitely doing Crusade, but with actual points. (GW just won't drop that goofy power level stuff. It's far too lopsided.)