Crossing the Rubicon - Rip the Band Aid or Water Torture?

[Xenith]

So we have been receiving the gradual drip of Primaris-ised characters for over a year now.

 

I can only assume that GW has plans to embiggen most, if not all of the old Jes Goodwin/mid 90's space marine character sculpts, and from the recent onslaught of new goodies I'm making the reasonable assumption that GW has all the characters made, just perhaps not tooled or produced yet.

 

My question to you is: would you rather GW just dumps all the re-made special characters on us at once, or do you like the release of models tied to a campaign?

 

Do you prefer the dramatisation of the firstborn hero's ascention to primaris, each one fighting a battle, being bested, and reborn, or would you be ok with a zero fluff "here's the model" approach? Moreover, would GW prefer that method? Let us get buying them rather than having to write the same piece of fluff 20 times?

 

Do we need fluff justification at this point for new primaris releases?

Edited August 5, 2020 by Xenith

[Lord Marshal]

Just get it over with now. Better than the smug, self-righteous "Well you should have KNOWN this was coming, you've only got yourself to blame for not upgrading to Primaris over the years!" we'll inevitably see from the same people who now say, "No way bro, GW wouldn't just throw Firstborn in the bin, they said they're sticking around bro, you can trust GW!"

Edited August 4, 2020 by Lord Marshal

[Charlo]

Just get it over with now. Better than the smug, self-righteous "Well you should have KNOWN this was coming, you've only got yourself to blame for not upgrading to Primaris over the years!" we'll inevitably see from the same people who now say, "No way bro, GW wouldn't just throw Firstborn in the bin, they said they're sticking around bro, you can trust GW!"

 

Well they're not going anywhere from what it seems like so far, not this edition at least. They're still on sale! :)

 

As for Primaris redo's of characters?

 

I don't mind the gradual release. It's nice to add the fluff to them and makes it feel like more of an event when they release and adds to the growing narrative of the galaxy.

[Scribe]

Considering the meta-plot approach, it's probably just going to be drip feed.

 

(Some of us knew what Primaris were as soon as we saw them. Eventual replacement of the best selling line, having Marine players buy in twice.)

[Marshal Loss]

I would definitely prefer that they just stop trying to use it for dramatic effect. I've read "(x) suffered horrific injuries but managed against the odds to go through the Rubicon Primaris which has a super high rate of death yet somehow never manages to kill anybody and oh look (x) was reborn sixteen feet tell with better looks and a smashing jawline" far too many times (with the notable exception of Calgar, who managed to derp his way into Primaris before a confrontation with Abaddon...).

 

If I'm allowed to get all meta for a moment, characters are always going to be redone gradually anyway, so attached lore doesn't really matter. It's fine if they release characters alongside campaign releases - it gives them something to push alongside the book, and it gives us a reason to care about the book, which is a win/win.

 

TLDR the drip-feed approach is going to continue long into the future, as will the tortuously bad Primaris lore accompanying it.

[The Yncarne]

I'd rather GW retire most of the older/firstborn and replace them with new, primaris models/characters, but I think that's in vain.

Edited August 4, 2020 by The Blood Raven

[ThePenitentOne]

I don't play marines yet; I'm thinking of putting together a small force of them or even two small forces. My favourites are the Deathwing and the Grey Knights, but truthfully I don't think of either of them as space marines; I think of them as the Chambers Militant of the Inquisition.

 

Of the actual Marine marines, I prefer Dark Angels because I love the Deathwing and Ravenwing. Next would be Blood Angels because of their jump units.

What I have are Spacehulk BA Terminators, and Primaris Spacewolves from Tooth and Claw.

 

So that is my entire background in Space Marinology, so take everything I say with a huge shaker of salt.

 

But personally, I think that the whole Primaris thing has killer story potential, and the internal drama it could bring to a Crusade Force is insane. In October when Marines get their dex, I'm willing to bet crossing the rubicon is a Crusade advance for them, just like being interred in a Dread.

 

But it goes WAY beyond that. Like you could start with an Old Marine Force, and then fight a battle allied with Ultra Marines representing the Indomitus Crusade dropping off Primaris for everyone. Then they could fight as separate forces or detachments to represent the initial distrust between old and new. Set a threshold, like Old Marines trust primaris once they are blooded but not before.  This way, Prmaris units have internal stories and politics themselves, because some will gain acceptance sooner than others.

 

Then HQ's can cross the Rubicon, which changes the dynamic again.

 

And if there are old marines that never trust, no matter how hard the primaris try to fit on, you've set the stage for chapter schism.

 

So. Much. Potential.

 

However, those of us who would drip the primaris into our forces to tell a story could still choose to do that, even if the minis were all released at once. That means the big release is probably the way to please the greatest number. I will say though, that since other non-Marine factions really need attention way more than marines do, drip feeding the marine releases allows the other factions to get the attention between marine releases.

 

One of the things that had me so upset when 9th was announced is that I was pretty sure it was going to lead to year long parade of stuff for marines with little to nothing for anyone else until year two, and quite frankly, the jury is still out. We can't speculate about the Codex release schedule beyond "There are two coming in October and one is marines, and there will be additional supplements, while old supplements will continue to work."

 

So if they can release a supplement AND a non-marine every month, we're okay. If they have to alternate though, that turns into the marine parade I feared. If the Codex/ Supplement releases are less than one/ month, all I can say is that the edition better last longer than 3 years. So many unknowns- it's driving me crazy, because we had learned the rhythm of 8th, and releases were easy to predict. Now everything is just questions.

[MegaVolt87]

Eh, I don't think there is too much variation in potential lore building for named characters passing the rubicon. Plus some characters are just too old to make sense doing it- Logan, Cassius, Dante etc. Or the character is such a powerhouse already like Mephy, why bother? How do the older characters just beat the odds of a successful crossover as its been established that older marines are less likely to successfully cross I believe. Just give us NEW primaris characters, its pathetic just rubiconing over existing ones to make primaris appealing. It shows a complete lack of faith from GW in primaris if old marines are needed to become to primaris to be appealing. No old marine characters should have even crossed over the rubicon IMO. 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

In the Grim Darkness of the 40k, there is only the Business Model.

[Lucerne]

Just get it over with and stop screwing over both firstborn fans who don't know if their range has a future, and primaris fans playing with half a faction.

 

Better yet, remake Aquila/Corvus pattern armour as a unique "mark" of tacticus that keeps the iconic armor design and sell it to us so we have the best of both worlds.

 

As it is, the company is legitimately making me hate them for wasting our precious time and stringing us along like this, combined with sloppy and obnoxious writing that screws over Chaos by proxy.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Lucerne

[Scribe]

Do OG Marine fans actually still cling to the idea their line isn't done?

[Grotsmasha]

=] Please keep the conversation to the topic at hand, this topic IS NOT about the future of the model range [=

[Roland Durendal]

Rip the bandaid and do what MegaVolt said above: GW should retire the named firstborn characters. Give them a glorious death or a mysterious disappearance and let them go into legends like champs. And then they should actually come out with NEW Lrimarisnsoecific characters and start afresh building up lore and background for this new breed of hero’s.

 

Porting over all the characters from the Firstborn is truly lazy writing and shows a clear lack of creativity in their narrative department.

[KBA]

I’m okay with the slow replacement. If you’ve been in 40K long enough, this is nothing too new. Look at some of the rogue trader/second edition stuff vs the 3rd edition tactical squad kit. Granted, this is unprecedented in a rules/wargear sense.

 

With the narrative they’ve applied, it seems designed to lend itself to the slow-feed approach. The only part of me that wishes it was one big dump was the domination of primaris marines vs first born in pictures in the new rule book. Really outlines how it’s still infantile compared to the expanse of the first born stuff.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have this feeling that people that want tinsy Marine characters snuffed don’t actually play any. Why GW won’t do it is there is too much invested lore.

[MegaVolt87]

I have this feeling that people that want tinsy Marine characters snuffed don’t actually play any. Why GW won’t do it is there is too much invested lore.

That is bad for everyone though. Pro primaris players are getting recycled content, not enough new important characters while die hard old marine fans watch in despair as old favourites go primaris and the old rules and minitures move to legends and out of production. I love the old characters, I would rather see new ones rise as primaris forging a new way foward for their chapters. Its the worst of both worlds currently.

Edited August 5, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Noserenda]

I think youve got to keep drip feeding them out, gives a straightforward release for books going forward and lots of options for the plot writers to play with. Im not sure what the advantage to GW would be in doing them all at once tbh? It would be a tedious release month and its really in their interest to slowly wean the player base off hobbit marines lest they get another AoS launch binfire.

Plus lets be honest a lot of those old characters are 20 years old, they are great sculpts but terribly out scaled and out dated, you look at someone like Azrael and its just a bit sad these days, but any revamp is always going to be a Primaris.

[tychobi]

If there are no truemarine releases in 9th expect the hall of legends to fling its doors wide for 10th.

[chapter master 454]

I have been an advocate of ripping the band-aid off or at the minimum telling us straight. Given up myself hoping for old marines to stick around, my only regrets is marines losing iconic and beautiful tank designs that look good, shame primaris never got any tanks...only light armour, nothing proper heavy duty. Even their forge world tank, saying it. If it's grav, it's light. If the Repulsor tech is so violent then it kind of defeats the purpose of grav...

 

My tendencies aside, really there is a major amount of lore still needing tidied up proper, various characters needing brought up to speed and some models given proper reason for discontinuing.

Lore is just a mess really. First off, the Land Raider and Rhino Chassis tanks are all based on STCs, something that is far more potent than anything cawl could cook up in his Mary-Sue vat of Matt Ward. They are rugged as all get out and functional to extreme for it. These two already stand as an oddity as you would think someone like Gulliman would endorse keeping such useful resources around, especially for his Marines (including use by the Primaris).

 

However that doesn't touch on transitioning other big deal lore items. Terminator armour is the big one that comes to mind. These suits of armour are considered prized relics, if not for the armour but for the Crux Terminatus borne upon it said to contain a single tiny shard of the Emperor's power armour. We just gonna casually give that a heave-ho through the warp disposal chute? Dreadnoughts are another factor, considering the Redemptor isn't sustainable really since it shares the same issue as leviathans, burning out the pilot (why Cawl didn't big brain proper and make it like the invictor we will never know).

 

Then that along with it also brings to bear the big elephant in the room. Making Primaris is more effort. you add 3 organs to the process so...what? Casually every single chapter just goes 100% Primaris-grown? Seems a bit odd considering it would add additional risk and resource to each recruit, and with time chapters would be very likely to lose these special new organs due to gene seed degradation which can't just be replaced with no issues. It also then follows into how do they make these organs? Can normal Gene-Seed from even just a Firstborn be used to create these new organs or must it be a Primaris brother who it is taken from? If the latter then what happens if a chapter...I don't know...has a nuclear plasma warhead detonate within their ammo cache on their home planet within their fortress where they keep all their stuff and a majority of their chapter and loses all stock of Primaris but not of firstborn?

 

Part of me wonders if GW are genuine about giving firstborn stuff in the future because the lore would be a complete mess to the point of warranting major community back-lash due to a disregard for over 20 years of lore, loved stories and circumstances made by it. So is it possible...that GW are cooking stuff for firstborns or they just slow cooking firstborn? Who knows, it would certainly not be unusual for GW to give marines more support than all other races combined but even then, if we get a "Firstborn Renewed" arc of 40k...I could see a lot of down-turns in sales at GW thinking firstborn don't sell but in reality people are just getting fed-up of marine marine marine. I personally want to see some new Tau stuff and support (I hear the booing and hissing from Eldar camp, get a real job ya Phil Kelly love children!).

 

...(and I want tracks back on tanks. Real Tanks have Tracks!)

[Lord_Caerolion]

I just want them to announce they're moving Firstborn to Specialist Games, and the Horus Heresy series is being expanded into "Ages of Darkness", or something like that.

[Scribe]

How long has it been since a new non-Primaris unit was added? I take long breaks from the hobby, but other than dubious inclusions like Rob...isn't it nothing but Primaris other than the Japan releases??

[Marshal Reinhard]

It would be nice to actually get one of these new characters eventually...

[tangoalphatwo]

I’m ok with the drip feed. And honestly it makes more sense from a business model perspective. Tooling and overhead and all that.

 

That being said, I would like a road map. Similar to what they did with ‘Munda.

[mughi3]

Well since i have gone back to playing 5th ed, or 30K for my 40K fix, it really isn't important to me, however like the problem with primaris lore. they should just release it all and say "boom" this is the updated marine stat line and new mini design. no lore excuse needed.

[Xenith]

 

I don't mind the gradual release. It's nice to add the fluff to them and makes it feel like more of an event when they release and adds to the growing narrative of the galaxy.

 

 

 

I don't play marines yet; 

 

I think you may have mis-read the first post!

 

 

Eh, I don't think there is too much variation in potential lore building for named characters passing the rubicon.

 

I agree, which Is why I posted this - it seems "Hero X died, then they didnt". Mephiston was a different case, but then he always was a different case. For Dante to fight and win for 1100 years, just to snuff it during indomitus to be reborn seems odd and would do the character no favours. 

 

 

Rip the bandaid and do what MegaVolt said above: GW should retire the named firstborn characters. Give them a glorious death or a mysterious disappearance and let them go into legends like champs. And then they should actually come out with NEW Lrimarisnsoecific characters and start afresh building up lore and background for this new breed of hero’s.

 

Porting over all the characters from the Firstborn is truly lazy writing and shows a clear lack of creativity in their narrative department.

So get rid of all the older characters completely?

 

 

I’m okay with the slow replacement. If you’ve been in 40K long enough, this is nothing too new. Look at some of the rogue trader/second edition stuff vs the 3rd edition tactical squad kit. Granted, this is unprecedented in a rules/wargear sense.

Very true - though those weren't named characters in the story.

 

I have been an advocate of ripping the band-aid off or at the minimum telling us straight.

tank ... tanks......tank

 

Part of me wonders if GW are genuine about giving firstborn stuff in the future because the lore would be a complete mess to the point of warranting major community back-lash due to a disregard for over 20 years of lore, loved stories and circumstances made by it. So is it possible...that GW are cooking stuff for firstborns or they just slow cooking firstborn? Who knows, 

 

... tanks...Tanks

 

Interesting thoughts there, on the slow cooking. And Tanks. 

 

I’m ok with the drip feed. And honestly it makes more sense from a business model perspective. Tooling and overhead and all that.

 

That being said, I would like a road map. Similar to what they did with ‘Munda.

Road map would be nice, I agree, though their business model seems to still be surprise. I think Necromunda got that due to fan fears that GW would stop supporting it - so it has the very opposite problem.

 

Well since i have gone back to playing 5th ed, or 30K for my 40K fix, it really isn't important to me, however like the problem with primaris lore. they should just release it all and say "boom" this is the updated marine stat line and new mini design. no lore excuse needed.

That's what I was wondering, no justtification needed. Just, here's bigger Dante.