Crossing the Rubicon - Rip the Band Aid or Water Torture?

[Panzer]

I don't care either way, however if getting them all at once means having less Marine releases spaced out over the coming years so there's more room for chaos and xenos releases (okay AM would be nice to see too), then that's what I'd vote for. Though more likely is that they'd find ways to shove more Marine releases down our throats with or without converting old characters into Primaris.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Panzer

[GreenScorpion]

They will always handle this kind of things gradually, there is a limit to the amount people will spend in one go and so it is better for them to release things every few months or weeks, with other releases in between.

That ensures that customers have enough money to spend and also adds to the feeling of buying something new (I have known people who are obsessed with always having the latest novelties in other stuff, so I guess that also happens with 40k).

It is not unexpected for them to convert all of the old characters to primaris, given that is their way of supposedly attracting customers attached to the old miniatures, but as already mentioned it feels like a cheap effort of doing something like a scale conversion with a weak fluff reason.

Still, given the amount of releases for the primaris line, I would say it is working for them financially.

[Captain Idaho]

To me, if you want to try and use background to justify why every new character becomes a Primaris, you'll need to change the background. High odds of death yet every one of them survives, it regrows your limbs and brings you back from near death meaning Dreadnoughts aren't a thing etc.

 

Clumsy writing and the same old story. Change it as an upgrade with perhaps 10% chance of death, so it's more of a personal choice the characters grapple with.

 

Personally I say just create new and interesting characters. If you can't, well then that's a damning indictment of writing quality.

 

We all KNOW the Primaris range is a replacement of Classic Marines eventually, but I think it needs to be a gradual thing simply because of economics. However, it would be nice to get it over with as I'd like other armies to actually get new stuff.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[MARK0SIAN]

I’d prefer a mix of killing off a couple a of characters and Primarising others. I don’t want them all killed off because honestly, how many times would we have to read those character died heroically doing blah blah blah?

 

Neither do I want to read 20 variations of what happened to Ragnar.

 

Pick two or three to die heroically, 2 or so to cross over after injury then just move the rest over without fanfare.

 

I’d also rather they did it all quickly. Just get it done.

 

The alternative would be to try and please both camps. Give the old characters new and upscaled models, then give them a new keyword of ‘commander’ or something that lets them ride in any transport so they can travel with and support Primaris or firstborn. Make a free strat that lets you give any of them the Primaris keyword (But doesn’t change their stats) if you want them to have that for any reason.

 

That way you’ve got a character who is a new model and can be Primaris or old marine until the time comes when they properly squat all old marines.

[Gederas]

To me, if you want to try and use background to justify why every new character becomes a Primaris, you'll need to change the background. High odds of death yet every one of them survives, it regrows your limbs and brings you back from near death meaning Dreadnoughts aren't a thing etc.

 

Clumsy writing and the same old story. Change it as an upgrade with perhaps 10% chance of death, so it's more of a personal choice the characters grapple with.

 

Personally I say just create new and interesting characters. If you can't, well then that's a damning indictment of writing quality.

 

We all KNOW the Primaris range is a replacement of Classic Marines eventually, but I think it needs to be a gradual thing simply because of economics. However, it would be nice to get it over with as I'd like other armies to actually get new stuff.

To be fair, the EARLY Rubicon Primaris was the one fraught with danger. That was Calgar's.

 

Iirc, it's stated they've refined the process enough so that it's as you say. Has a chance of death instead of a high likelihood of it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There are many heroes - we don’t know them all, just the ones GW tells us about... so it’s feasible all the named ones we know could survive the crossing.

[Robbienw]

 

To be fair, the EARLY Rubicon Primaris was the one fraught with danger. That was Calgar's.

 

Iirc, it's stated they've refined the process enough so that it's as you say. Has a chance of death instead of a high likelihood of it.

 

 

You have any evidence of this?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Personally I'd like to see some new characters, it doesn't really bother me that no named characters have died trying to cross the Rubicon (and I don't think they should if GW puts a character into legends they should have fitting end).

 

That said at some point I do expect them to rescale TDA, termies are just so iconic that it wouldn't make sense to get rid of them. When they do that I'd like to see a lot of the firstborn characters in the new scale.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Gederas]

 

To be fair, the EARLY Rubicon Primaris was the one fraught with danger. That was Calgar's.

 

Iirc, it's stated they've refined the process enough so that it's as you say. Has a chance of death instead of a high likelihood of it.

You have any evidence of this?

The Psychic Awakening books mention it iirc, as well as the new codex supplements.

[chapter master 454]

The rubicon was added to try and create some tension which GW handled with as much care, attention and ability as a quadruple amputee in an earthquake simulator. Calgar went across, didn't die but then faced Abaddon in a hyped up match that peter molyneux would of been proud of that ended up like said persons projects everytime: a roaring disappointment as the fight gets barely a 6 line paragraph half column style of "Calgar ran away, Abaddon chased" followed by "Calgar tripped like a complete scrub and got wrecked but sike not really, despite having an ultra fatal wound even for a marine Cawls magic organ of plot armour did its thing and CAlgar operated without his hearts".

 

Then Shrike and Korsarro crossed it, Kayvaan just sneaked over without anyone expecting it and Korsarro crossed it to roaring shock as he yet again appears without a bike.

 

When it comes to lore, GW has a gulf so wide in quality you could likely fit every dead imperial guard in it and still have space for dead of the tyranids too. Some of it really resonates, works and hits the mark while others are so off key, blatant faction pandering or outright rubbish. Sadly, GW tends to prefer those that make the latter over the former because the former uses actual writing techniques and among them is giving your characters (both heroes and villains) qualities and flaws the reflect them. Is Calgar a good character? Despite his appearances, yes. He has had many victories but also many defeats that stung. Similar with the Ultramarines who a core part of their identity is having lost their 1st company to the tyranids on first encounter.

Those are the moments that characters (be them Chapters of marines or singular great heroes) need, they need their triumphs and their defeats. Abaddon is good because he got a MAJOR triumph that led to a form of defeat, after cadia fell, ironically so too did his forces and lost most of his momentum as the one thing that united his crusade was gone. He now struggles to gain ground and thus is cursed by his success.

 

Meanwhile however, Cawl does nothing wrong, made perfect new marines who were better than the Emperors (at the behest of not the Emperor but his son) and his son is the centre of the biggest Deus Ex Machina I would think possible with no penalty (and it literally was a God from a Machine really). Ultramarines paid no price for the return of Gulliman who has now been the most impactful imperial character since the Emperor to affect lore proper while two Daemon Primarchs barely got footnote mentions of their successes!

 

This does come around from GW being a model company, not a story company. Sadly they want to push new models and it is depressing that they think it is "models or lore" when it really is about both. Good lore informs about new models and new models can inform about lore and both can play off one another when handled well. Not like they don't have writers with the talent for it, just they need to improve their relations between their rule writers, model makers and lore writers beyond what they have now because they don't talk to one another enough and if they do they don't ether get enough time or the correct freedoms to make things good.

 

And HEY, Xenith...I'm a treadhead ok...I have now 2 Dominus Knights, 5 Questoris Knights and 2 Armigers along with 4 land raiders, a shadowsword and a multitude of predators...don't Tank-Shame me :D

[Snazzy]

To me, if you want to try and use background to justify why every new character becomes a Primaris, you'll need to change the background. High odds of death yet every one of them survives, it regrows your limbs and brings you back from near death meaning Dreadnoughts aren't a thing etc.

 

What is strange to me is how GW has left the door open to doubt.  Why even have that bit about likely to die if Calgar is going to lecture the reader on becoming Primaris in the SMC?  Why have Seth muse about how Primaris are a replacement for Blood Angels if they retcon the Black Rage into Primaris?  Why even focus on Dante being Lord Commander of Imperium Nihilus if he is one of the few non-Primaris characters?  So many strange decisions around the Primaris thing. 

 

I resent that by making them Primaris, those characters are effectively stolen from Firstborn players.  Everything else?  Garbage.  But, we're taking your named characters.

 

 

But, they killed off Tycho, who was an iconic Blood Angels character for years.  So, i guess anything is possible. 

[Robbienw]

 

 

To be fair, the EARLY Rubicon Primaris was the one fraught with danger. That was Calgar's.

 

Iirc, it's stated they've refined the process enough so that it's as you say. Has a chance of death instead of a high likelihood of it.

You have any evidence of this?

The Psychic Awakening books mention it iirc, as well as the new codex supplements.

 

 

Can you tell me where exactly?  I've only read Engine War and Ritual of the Damned (don't recall anything in them) from the Psychic Awakening.  Similarly with the supplements I've only properly read the White Scars and Ultramarines, and there was nothing new on the rubicon in them either as i recall, other than old characters who had undergone it.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Robbienw

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Apparently the Khan is still waiting for his bike to cross over as well .

 

Also they can alway dig up Tycho and try to float his corpse across that river.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Snazzy]

What will be really interesting to see if if so many of the Ultramarine 5th edition characters like Cronus and Tellion will make it to Primaris.

 

 

Also they can alway dig up Tycho and try to float his corpse across that river.

 

Primaris Cortez on deck, followed by Naaman and Obiwan Clouseau.

[Hymnblade]

Lexicanum cites Vigilus Defiant page 77, where Cawl says that "the data he had amassed suggested there would be a 61.6% failure rate until the process could be perfected". I'm not sure if any later books say outright that the process has been perfected, but it seems plausible that it's been refine since literally the first time it was ever tried.

 

Personally, at this point I think of the Rubicon Primaris as being "dangerous" in the same way that warp travel is: it's dangerous enough that it can be used as a plot point, but not so dangerous that we should be surprised when our favorite characters make it to their destination intact.

[Khornestar]

I’d prefer they all get primaris’d because I dig the look/proportions of them by far compared to oldmarines. However, new sculpts up to modern standards would be almost as good.

 

I’m also a proponent of just releasing them all at once. It’s all kinda a gimmick at this point, just release the models.

[Snazzy]

There's a split down the middle that could satisfy everyone but GW.  Provide pre and post Rubicon versions, even if pre Rubicon is in Legends.

[KBA]

All they really need to do is take a suitably famous marine character without a model and make him into a cool character dreadnaught kit. Have the lore say he tried to cross the rubicon and ultimately failed, but enough of him could be somewhat saved and interred into a sarcophagus. Destroys the rickety precedent of all named characters successfully crossing, and, if you did it to a character like Grimnar, you erase one of the worst model remiganings ever.

[Captain Idaho]

I've been thinking the main thing we as fans need is resolution. Let's get this all over with.

 

I worry the bad will isn't just coming from jaded Marines fans but seeping into the player base of other factions, as players see their favourite factions marginalised whilst Primaris Marines take so much of the resources of GW regarding new releases and refreshes etc.

 

Aeldari players must be upset that their Aspect Warriors are now less effective at being specialised than Primaris, yet are easier to kill with older sculpts.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'm of the opinion that they will continue to drip feed it.

It makes natural sense with The Horus Heresy and The Old World for them to expand further into their historical gaming settings. Any historic setting will not share any existing characters, barring Chaos and some outliers like Bjorn. However, they will need time to set this up, and will continue the classic line in 40k proper until they have time to boot up a new system like that. They will not want to mothball production only to have to bring it back up later, like they may decide to do with any fantasy kits when going to The Old World.

Personally, I would like them to get some of it over with. I don't really like the slow drip, even if it is the natural or proper decision for GW to make.

Edited August 5, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Evil Eye]

But, they killed off Tycho, who was an iconic Blood Angels character for years.  So, i guess anything is possible. 

 

 

Wasn't Tycho dead by the "present" of 40K anyway?

[Scribe]

Yes, very.

[FinalCookie]

 

But, they killed off Tycho, who was an iconic Blood Angels character for years.  So, i guess anything is possible. 

 

 

Wasn't Tycho dead by the "present" of 40K anyway?

 

 

Tycho died in his first appearance in a White Dwarf Battle Report, iirc. He was only made a special character available to the general playing public after that. Later on they wrote him falling to the Black Rage and then officially dying on Armageddon.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

One thing that should be considered is the lil Timmy reaction to the death of a named character and this is ultimately why Eldrad was brought back.

[Scribe]

There us absolutely nothing to gain by killing the established characters that have literal decades of history.

 

Especially when they just make an appeal to that history (Mephiston and his blood wipe pose) to pull in boomers like myself.

 

Primaris are a marketing and sales choice. They exist to replace the armies that most of us have/had.

 

People need to stop thinking its more than that.