Crossing the Rubicon - Rip the Band Aid or Water Torture?

[Marshal Rohr]

The only problem is the whole nudge-nudge-wink-wink about wanting to leave room to expand in the future. That’s dumb. Just tell us what you’re making. Show CADs. Stop tying it to a story and just start writing about everything now.

[Scribe]

Why would they tell people? They (models) are the vehicle for everything. Art, Lore, metaplot, and fiction.

 

It's how they plan their quarter projections, it's everything.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Scribe

[chapter master 454]

I suppose the reality is, we are all in truth Dark Angel players who ironically can't handle the truth!

 

I mean, if somewhere down the line they go "and now for the original marines, brand new kits and gear" when Primaris seem ultimately posed to fully replace I will be shocked and then immediately wake up from the best dream of my life. 

[Scribe]

There is simply no way. I would question how anyone could ever come to the conclusion that it's a long con and new small Marine's are a few years away.

 

Unless Primaris are just not selling, but I doubt that, very much.

[Snazzy]

At the risk of repeating myself,

 

I'd have preferred if there's no such thing as primaris and they simply went, "These are your new edition Space Marine Models, and these are your new edition Space Marine rules."

 

As much as i resent the shelving of Firstborn, i'll be the first to admit they were begging for an organizational retcon.  I respect that Primaris are basically an army of uniformly armed specialist squads. 

 

 

But, they killed off Tycho, who was an iconic Blood Angels character for years.  So, i guess anything is possible. 

 

 

Wasn't Tycho dead by the "present" of 40K anyway?

 

 

Tycho was killed in the 3rd War of Armageddon worldwide event.  That was present for some of us, once upon a time.

[Lord_Caerolion]

There is simply no way. I would question how anyone could ever come to the conclusion that it's a long con and new small Marine's are a few years away.

 

Unless Primaris are just not selling, but I doubt that, very much.

 

The only new Firstborn models will be coming from Forge World, for Horus Heresy and, IMHO, eventually in an "Ages of Darkness" expanded section. The main GW studio are absolutely done with new Firstborn, and will eventually not feature them any more.

[Lucerne]

Honestly all they need to do is make a single Primaris armor mark that actually is a 1:1 of Aquila in the new proportions. Boom, the firstborn fans shut up, everyone buys the new kits, happy endings all around.

[Snazzy]

There is simply no way. I would question how anyone could ever come to the conclusion that it's a long con and new small Marine's are a few years away.

 

Unless Primaris are just not selling, but I doubt that, very much.

 

Because GW has let there be some doubt exist while the slow drip has continued.  This latest round of releases in Indomitus is so obvious that the current state of affairs, with Firstborn and Primaris coexisting with some differing functions will not last.  Bikes?  Outriders.  Land Speeders?  Heavy Storm Speeder, or whatever.  It is just a matter of time before most of the characters are Primaris, or discontinued.  I wonder if there is priority on release date?  Does Primaris Sanguinor have a future?

[Scribe]

What doubt? I know I am not alone in the belief that with the first Primaris, the end of the original Marine scale/design was a foregone conclusion.

 

The greatest loss really, is the tank family, Rhino, Pred, and LR are timeless to me.

 

Yes, eventually every classic hero will become a Primaris.

 

No, there will never be another new OG Marine release. (Outside of the Japan type things).

 

Actions speak louder than words. It's a Primaris show.

[CCE1981]

Gw not killing off Characters. RIP Chaplain Xavier.

[Evil Eye]

I don't see the problem with characters crossing the Rubicon myself. Fluffwise it makes perfect sense, and modelwise it both allows for them to be a more imposing scale (those old Jes Goodwin sculpts are getting kinda small) and also allows them to reinterpret their overall look without cries of "Hang on, Calgar's armour doesn't look like that!". It also keeps the legacy of these characters alive, rather than just replacing them with completely new characters. I'd rather they got on and Primaris'd as many characters as possible honestly. I'd kinda like to see some characters remain Firstborn, but most of them are solid models, even if they aren't plastic (Darnath Lysander, Gabriel Seth etc) so they don't need updates.

 

I'm still not remotely convinced GW are going to nuke the Firstborn- quite aside from anything else, the older vehicles such as the Rhino (and its derivatives) and Land Raider are used by other factions, notably Chaos. And unless they remove them just from loyalist armouries (highly unlikely) and make new kits specifically for Chaos, they can't retire those vehicles. Plus, there's the blindingly obvious tactic of "Once we're out of ideas for new Primaris units we'll redo the Firstborn at the new CSM scale/design philosophy and make even more money" to consider- it might take a while, but mark my words it will happen. We might not get any new Firstborn models until then but honestly, most of the Firstborn range is very modern and not in need of replacement- the Tactical box only got outdated by virtue of the sudden change in model design (less poseable but more convincing minis) and the scale jump that came with it. Even then, it's hardly a crusty relic like the Khorne Berzerkers.

[Snazzy]

I don't see the problem with characters crossing the Rubicon myself. Fluffwise it makes perfect sense, and modelwise it both allows for them to be a more imposing scale (those old Jes Goodwin sculpts are getting kinda small) and also allows them to reinterpret their overall look without cries of "Hang on, Calgar's armour doesn't look like that!". It also keeps the legacy of these characters alive, rather than just replacing them with completely new characters. I'd rather they got on and Primaris'd as many characters as possible honestly. I'd kinda like to see some characters remain Firstborn, but most of them are solid models, even if they aren't plastic (Darnath Lysander, Gabriel Seth etc) so they don't need updates.

 

 

It is a branding thing.  Characters moving over is a way to avoid Next Generation Syndrome with all new characters.  It is helps to prevent the idea of Primaris being imposter, not-Ultramarines, etc.  Basically, the characters are an institution that needs to carry over to preserve the identity and continuity of existing Space Marine players.  Otherwise, you end up with a Scythes of the Emperor situation, where all the Firstborn, including the Chapter Master die off with Primaris now occupying their fortress monastery, completely disconnected to the iconic background story.

[Mandragola]

 

At the risk of repeating myself,

 

I'd have preferred if there's no such thing as primaris and they simply went, "These are your new edition Space Marine Models, and these are your new edition Space Marine rules."

 

As much as i resent the shelving of Firstborn, i'll be the first to admit they were begging for an organizational retcon.  I respect that Primaris are basically an army of uniformly armed specialist squads. 

 

I agree they really should have just said "here are the new marine models. Marines now have 2 wounds and 2 attacks".

 

Nobody would have minded that. Primaris marines are about the same size as truescale marines people used to make. They've got the stat line marines always ought to have had and their guns actually do about as much damage as we were always told bolters should do.

 

The problem with this division between Primaris and non-Primaris is that they've tied themselves in a knot with the fluff. So chaos marines are still useless and they've idiotically brought out a line of too small chaos marines subsequent to the Primaris launch. And don't get me wrong, they're beautiful models... which nobody uses because they're complete trash compared to intercessors. What a waste!

 

I understand that they could have been worried about people not buying the new line. That fear was clearly unfounded. The Primaris line coincided with a vast improvement in GW's profits and share value. People are replacing their old armies with Primaris because they're far better models.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s not that easy at all and would be a different sort of hand waving that would not be well received.

[Dracos]

 

I agree they really should have just said "here are the new marine models. Marines now have 2 wounds and 2 attacks".

 

 . . . . 

 

I understand that they could have been worried about people not buying the new line. That fear was clearly unfounded. The Primaris line coincided with a vast improvement in GW's profits and share value. People are replacing their old armies with Primaris because they're far better models.

 

Which would have been a horrible idea for the company. The number of old time players who whined about Primaris models being ugly or unfair due to rules would have just kept playing their old models thus losing GW millions in sales. The only reason it "was clearly unfounded" is not clear at all. Thousands of player who play competitively would never had flooded their army list with Intercessors when the new Codex was released.

 

It's my opinion Primaris didn't just save the Imperium but likely saved GW. Covids impacted all industries. Entertainment industries involving social interaction especially. I believe the combination of the Primaris line and the 2.0 Marine Codex is the only thing that allowed GW to ride the pandemic to the point that they were able to stay financially stable enough until July ... when they were able to release 9th and fill their coffers with the release of the Indomitus Launch set. 

 

It's this same conservative release of models that will keep spurring interest driving sales at a rate that is affordable to most of us plastic marine addicts. I can't afford everything I'd like but I definitely can get anything I feel I need to play and stay locally competitive. Honestly I'm surprised they didn't they've released as much as they have. They could easily have focused more on Necrons in August and September and pushed back Marines a couple more months. I don't play them but wouldn't hurt my feelings to see a Infantry resculpt focus for Orks and Eldar, before circling back to Space Wolves (Sory guys, it's the one Astartes Chapter that should not be consolidated imo unless they plane to tone down the wolfieness)

 

Preach patience. We didn't have a full Marine line until 3rd edition imo. I see no reason to ask for less today. Especially if it means giving some love to other Factions, thus growing the health of the Community

[Lucerne]

 

 

I agree they really should have just said "here are the new marine models. Marines now have 2 wounds and 2 attacks".

 

 . . . . 

 

I understand that they could have been worried about people not buying the new line. That fear was clearly unfounded. The Primaris line coincided with a vast improvement in GW's profits and share value. People are replacing their old armies with Primaris because they're far better models.

 

Which would have been a horrible idea for the company. The number of old time players who whined about Primaris models being ugly or unfair due to rules would have just kept playing their old models thus losing GW millions in sales. The only reason it "was clearly unfounded" is not clear at all. Thousands of player who play competitively would never had flooded their army list with Intercessors when the new Codex was released.

 

It's my opinion Primaris didn't just save the Imperium but likely saved GW. Covids impacted all industries. Entertainment industries involving social interaction especially. I believe the combination of the Primaris line and the 2.0 Marine Codex is the only thing that allowed GW to ride the pandemic to the point that they were able to stay financially stable enough until July ... when they were able to release 9th and fill their coffers with the release of the Indomitus Launch set. 

 

It's this same conservative release of models that will keep spurring interest driving sales at a rate that is affordable to most of us plastic marine addicts. I can't afford everything I'd like but I definitely can get anything I feel I need to play and stay locally competitive. Honestly I'm surprised they didn't they've released as much as they have. They could easily have focused more on Necrons in August and September and pushed back Marines a couple more months. I don't play them but wouldn't hurt my feelings to see a Infantry resculpt focus for Orks and Eldar, before circling back to Space Wolves (Sory guys, it's the one Astartes Chapter that should not be consolidated imo unless they plane to tone down the wolfieness)

 

Preach patience. We didn't have a full Marine line until 3rd edition imo. I see no reason to ask for less today. Especially if it means giving some love to other Factions, thus growing the health of the Community

 

Preach impatience. Other ranges are all well and good, but let's not pretend they benefit from Primaris hogging the release schedule forever. Even a year of just Primaris followed by updates for all the others would be better than the status quo- where Primaris are just this parasite on both LSM and the model range in general- both intentionally prevented from using iconic marine wargear while strangling the LSM range just by existing. This is not ideal.

 

It doesn't matter if Primaris fans can afford to buy it all at once or not- the fact is that by stretching things out like this for this long while being disingenuous about their intent, GW does nothing but hurt the hobby, fans of every other faction and even LSM fans of the models and lore, and generally just screw over the community in the name of optimizing revenue.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Lucerne

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I love that we are always getting something.

[Volt]

There us absolutely nothing to gain by killing the established characters that have literal decades of history.

 

Especially when they just make an appeal to that history (Mephiston and his blood wipe pose) to pull in boomers like myself.

 

Primaris are a marketing and sales choice. They exist to replace the armies that most of us have/had.

 

People need to stop thinking its more than that.

There is absolute much to gain, an actual bloody sense of consequences with battles that matter instead of the current state where all fluff is ultimately pointless since we can easily guess the conclusion of literally any conflict or greater campaign written by GW. Nobody important dies, nothing critical is lost, the setting doesn't take impact, and the characters are functionally invincible and suffer what just amounts to minor scrapes because they never bite it. There cannot be any form of tension in warhammer at all if characters, especially space marine ones who are supposed to face something like a 65% death rate by crossing the Rubicon, are perfectly OK. If GW wants people to actually care about their campaigns and not easily predict conclusions, then figures like Calgar, Azrael, Shrike, etc should simply bite it someday, with the Rubicon being perfect opportunity. That creates actual stakes in the narrative, and adds some excitement to events like Vigilus or Psychic Awakening which could be best surmised as absolutely nothing happening. The only exception would be Dante, because his fate is both sealed and it's part of his character arc to be at the Second Battle of Terra, if that ever even happens. But all of the other Marine characters, there's no reason that they actually need to stick around beyond GW's avarice.

 

(and even then it's not really avarice, since there is no reason to stop selling models simply because somebody died)

[Dracos]

With Bobby G back Marneus might make a good sacrifice and excepting him I'd leave most the classics like Mephiston, Vulkan, and Azrael alone. There are a number of characters they could replace, like Khan,  Shrike and Lasander with minimal upheaval ... and I know the roar would be horrendous and keep in mind I love Templars and Wolves were my very first army, but killing half of those characters off might be classified as either a mercy killing or a new beginning depending on your pov.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well he’s made it across so not the best example.

[Volt]

With Bobby G back Marneus might make a good sacrifice and excepting him I'd leave most the classics like Mephiston, Vulkan, and Azrael alone. There are a number of characters they could replace, like Khan,  Shrike and Lasander with minimal upheaval ... and I know the roar would be horrendous and keep in mind I love Templars and Wolves were my very first army, but killing half of those characters off might be classified as either a mercy killing or a new beginning depending on your pov.

Well Logan certainly is starting to froth at the mouth...

 

 

[Dracos]

Well he’s made it across so not the best example.

 

I'm more along the lines of kill them in fiction now. Give them a heroes death saving something important or maybe even better losing something important. Give the next generation something to cut their fangs on.

 

More importantly it could spur a reorganization of a few Chapters that dont fit well with the Primaris line. Allow some creativity so as to be reinvented as a Chapter much as the Primaris has the Astarte

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is like I said though when you kill off characters it upsets players heavily/emotionally invested in them... you know the bad feelsies and GW wants to avoid these types of situations which is why Eldrad was brought back. It might seem silly but I appreciate that they care.

[Volt]

Is like I said though when you kill off characters it upsets players heavily/emotionally invested in them... you know the bad feelsies and GW wants to avoid these types of situations which is why Eldrad was brought back. It might seem silly but I appreciate that they care.

Said people should be simply told it's a bloody wargame by GW and get over it. It's war. People die. If people aren't actually dying, it becomes very hard to have any sort of compelling narrative to any degree if everybody is functionally invincible.

[Captain Idaho]

I think GW has hit the problem with advancing the story to drive sales.

 

In days gone past, GW set out the setting and the players relived the story with their own campaigns and games. Things were often about to happen.

 

Now, in this different age where folk need to be spoon fed their imagination (NOT directed at people on the B&C but society at large) we have a situation where the games we play for story is no longer relevant to us because GW is doing that for us.