Multi-melta over Plasmacannon now?

[Mandragola]

You could do that, but I wouldn't. Those extra bodies do nothing and cost 18 points each. Too much. 6 Eradicators have 18 T5 wounds. 10 Devastators have 20 at T4. The Eradicators are tougher and have - and I really cannot emphasise this point enough - twice as many shots. Both units cost 260 points if you go for melta rifles and multimeltas, which I think I like.

 

Eradicators are much tougher against D2 weapons and can get +1 armour save against D1 stuff. They're more efficient to revive with an apothecary. The list goes on, and on. They are very, very good - too good really. It's not a fair comparison with devastators.

[Ishagu]

Multiple squads of Devs can be delivered into optimum range on turn 1. That's their biggest strength.

[Commander Nicky]

You could do that, but I wouldn't. Those extra bodies do nothing and cost 18 points each. Too much. 6 Eradicators have 18 T5 wounds. 10 Devastators have 20 at T4. The Eradicators are tougher and have - and I really cannot emphasise this point enough - twice as many shots. Both units cost 260 points if you go for melta rifles and multimeltas, which I think I like.

 

Eradicators are much tougher against D2 weapons and can get +1 armour save against D1 stuff. They're more efficient to revive with an apothecary. The list goes on, and on. They are very, very good - too good really. It's not a fair comparison with devastators.

The Eradicators can only shot twice if 1) they shoot at the same target and 2) if they don't advance...else they are heavy 1 and assault 1... This makes it more difficult in my eyes to evaluate it... I mean, yes they can deliver more damage and are more resiliant againt damage but they don't shine when they are required to move fast or if they can't see their target... This problem is lesser an issue for Devastators... as they have better option with regard to transports...

Edited October 14, 2020 by Commander Nicky

[Mandragola]

Transports are the only advantage devastators have. With heavy weapons, they're at a penalty to hit if they move and unable to fire if they advance. Eradicators can't double fire if they advance but they do get to fire.

 

Eradicators do have a problem with transports. They basically have to walk, and they have a short range. Their only transport options are very expensive and also use up HS slots. The enemy can take them out before they fire if they go first. But really this is a problem for anyone running meltas. Devastators in a rhino don't exactly have a huge reach either, and the moment they get out they're much softer.

[Ishagu]

There are lots of ways around that for a bunch of chapters, obviously not all of them.

 

Transport and mobility are still an important factor.

[9x19 Parabellum]

There's also the Signum, and extra shot from Armorium Cherub, both of which have proved to me to be incredibly useful in many a game.  Also if Devs split fire they aren't shooting themselves in the foot, no pun intended.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I do think it's worth pointing out that eradicators will probably get nerfed at some point. I don't think they'll do it before the multipart kit is out but they're clearly pushed.

[Ishagu]

They might get a point increase, but I'm not too worried.

 

Something will replace them if they do.

[bigtrouble]

*Slams fist on table* 

 

Something must be done about these Eradicators!

 

EDIT: They could simply make the Total Obliteration ability once per game and I'd be cool with it, or at least a -1 to hit when shooting twice. I mean, that's fair.

Edited October 14, 2020 by bigtrouble

[9x19 Parabellum]

*Slams fist on table* 

 

Something must be done about these Eradicators!

 

EDIT: They could simply make the Total Obliteration ability once per game and I'd be cool with it, or at least a -1 to hit when shooting twice. I mean, that's fair.

 

I'd add in a couple conditions, but not the -1 to hit. "if the eradicators don't move, and they fire all their shots at the same unit and that unit does not have the infantry keyword, then they may shoot twice".

 

This would ensure that they do the job they are meant to do: killing big things, without becoming a replacement for anti-hoard weaponry.

Edited October 14, 2020 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Commander Nicky]

*Slams fist on table* 

 

Something must be done about these Eradicators!

 

EDIT: They could simply make the Total Obliteration ability once per game and I'd be cool with it, or at least a -1 to hit when shooting twice. I mean, that's fair.

Or they could make it a stratagems...

[Captain Idaho]

You see, the way I see MM Devastators vs Eradicators is thus:

 

The Devastators can have 4 Multi-meltas and 3 extra bodies, with the benefit of having a Sergeant that grants a 2+ to hit for 1 model for free and a 5pt Cherub that means 1 guy can shoot twice (probably the one with a 2+ to hit...).

 

This is a cost effective way of getting extra wounds (you don't need 6 extra bodies, just a couple) and can fit into a transport nicely.

 

The Eradicators are very powerful options of course and operate in a different manner. They have Gravis Armour (remember the survival benefits cost Command Points) and thus provide additional target saturation for certain weapon types and your other super heavy infantry. They require a bit more investment to get into position but when they point their weapons at a target it'll die.

 

Compare a minimum squad of Devastators with 4 MM (170pts) vs 4 Eradicators with Melta Rifles and 1 with a MM (170pts).

 

The firepower advantage sits with the Devastators, clearly. The survivability sits with the Eradicators.

 

Personally, if I'm taking Firstborn, I'm taking them for their strengths over Primaris not as an alternative. The Devastators don't need to replicate Eradicators, they need to do different jobs. Or more accurately, do they job differently.

[Ishagu]

Honestly I'm not concerned by them at all.

 

This is the first codex of the edition, they can't deal with DA Termies, and we don't know what's coming down the line.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree. They are powerful for sure but have quite pronounced weaknesses. 5" movement, unable to get cheap transports, each loss impacts their offensive potential quite badly.

 

I actually think they're fairly balanced in that regard.

[MegaVolt87]

I don't understand why the shoot twice ability isn't a 2 CP strategem. These eradicators are clearly another cash grab SM unit like the executioner before its nerf. I wouldn't get too attached to them. Unit would have been better without gravis, the shoot twice as a strategem. Then a ranged type at a proper distance of 36' plus non melta in gravis for AT that wouldn't need a transport.

[Ishagu]

They'd be underpowered at that point, comparative to other units such as 5 MM Devs that can fire 10 shots (with a cherub). It's a very fine balance. If they do turn out to be a practical problem, and not just a theoretical one, then adjust the points.

 

There are lots of units with Multi Meltas now, and the damage they can deal is fearsome.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Ishagu

[Mandragola]

It's a bit odd that they've given multimeltas two shots. In that context, Eradicators are only a bit more insane really. I don't understand why they've done this - surely not to fix a problem of people taking too many vehicles without invulnerable saves. Those haven't been good for years and they just lost Core anyway.

 

I can well imagine that people will just not bring vehicles now at all, and that this will be the real downside of units like Eradicators. They're like a predator that kills off all of its own food supply and starves.

[Karhedron]

I think the problem was the multimelta supposedly excelling at short-ranged armour busting yet everyone always took lascannons instead.

 

I suspect a few infantry-spam tourney winners and we will see some tweaks for tanks.

[Captain Idaho]

Tanks are still good. Everyone always shifts to the perceived easiest option to play with, but I've found vehicles to be incredibly useful. The reason? Because I take a combined arms force so am not wholly reliant on 1 facet to win me a game and if someone does take way too many anti-tank melta options well then snap I've got plenty of infantry options too.

 

I consider it a shoe in that folk will take lots of Marines infantry and tournaments will in turn be filled with Marine infantry killing weapons, thus the player with all the Dreads wins.

 

This actually happened with tournaments that saw Orks and Daemons do well. Folk were convinced MSU is the way forward and hordes were dead. It ain't quite true. ;)

[bigtrouble]

It's a bit odd that they've given multimeltas two shots. In that context, Eradicators are only a bit more insane really. I don't understand why they've done this - surely not to fix a problem of people taking too many vehicles without invulnerable saves. Those haven't been good for years and they just lost Core anyway.

 

I can well imagine that people will just not bring vehicles now at all, and that this will be the real downside of units like Eradicators. They're like a predator that kills off all of its own food supply and starves.

Fields 5 expendable Rhinos, just like the good old days.

[MegaVolt87]

They'd be underpowered at that point, comparative to other units such as 5 MM Devs that can fire 10 shots (with a cherub). It's a very fine balance. If they do turn out to be a practical problem, and not just a theoretical one, then adjust the points.

There are lots of units with Multi Meltas now, and the damage they can deal is fearsome.

Not really. They would be less points, 10 man cap, basically melta hellblasters. 2 CP strat for double tap would work fine. And you said in another post, if the points go up you would basically leave them behind. So you acknowledge that if they are actually pointed correctly you don't want them. Yet you reject my idea of a cheaper points unit in power armour with a good fair strat is weak ? SM players too used to having their cake and eating it SMH.

 

They might get a point increase, but I'm not too worried.

Something will replace them if they do.

Edited October 14, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Ishagu]

I'm saying I'd rather have them cost more but still be the most damaging, over them being inferior to other options with a similar role.

 

The codex has been out for 4 days, and other factions are yet to be updated. Let's see how things pan out.

[Captain Idaho]

Much of the upgrades for Firstborn make them more powerful or flexible (depending on units) than Primaris that perform similar roles, but the upgrades cost points. I'm happy with Eradicators where they are.

 

Another good example is the Veteran Intercessors Datasheet and Sternguard. Both have 2 wounds, the former has 1 more attack and a worse Bolter, the latter gets really powerful the more combi-weapons and Heavy Weapons they get (read 2 Grav Cannons) but will end up cost much more points.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[dice4thedicegod]

It does seem (in theory) that smaller boards, with new melta and eradicators rules, will lead to vehicles dying like flies. Perhaps all vehicles need a duty eternal/-1damage rule?

[leth]

Vehicles biggest problem is a combination of eradicators and bring it down.  Take more than 2-3 vehicles? free 15 points to your opponent(especially with eradicator spam).

 

Personally I would not run more than 2, just to make sure they cant max that secondary. 

 

I think the plasma cannon versus multi-melta debate will be down to how many 6+ units we see in the game.  In general i will lean towards multi-melta just because it doesnt kill your own user which i believe counts for morale. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by leth