Legacy of Dorn now only S7+

[Mandragola]

There are quite a lot of changes in our latest FAQ: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Pg7SNcXHy0BwUCW4.pdf

 

The one that stood out most for me was this:

*Page 56 – Abilities, Legacy of Dorn Change to read: ‘Whilst the Devastator Doctrine is active, each time a model with this ability makes an attack with a Heavy weapon against a Vehicle or Building unit, if that attack has a Strength characteristic of 7 or more, add 1 to the Damage characteristic of that attack.’

 

So now a whole ton of weapons lose the bonus. I'm not sure which of these is most significant, though intercessors' stalker bolt rifles are probably high up the list. Then probably heavy bolters. Stuff like onslaught gatling cannons, that became decent AT weapons for Fists (especially with the tank hunters strat) are now a huge amount weaker.

 

Autocannons are still ok though, and gained a shot. I wasn't sure if my suppressors would see a lot of table time in 9th but they might. And, like everyone else, I guess I'll be buying Eradicators.

 

Can't say I'm at all happy with this change. I don't know why they had to nerf Fists even more, after the doctrine changes.

[jeremy1391]

It’s starting to look more and more like my fists are going to be using black Templar’s rules.

[Fenriwolf]

I'm at a loss for words. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Fenriwolf

[Apemantus]

Our HB and HB Centurions also took another couple of hits too, 'Close range bolter fire' and Bolter Drill' strats only work on core and characters now.
So our centurions lost the use of character auras, bolter discipline, Legacy of Dorn, and both Close range Bolter firer' and Bolter Drill' strats.... Is the extra Dmg on a heavy bolter still enough to make them worth taking.
 

[NatBrannigan]

They’re still nerfing Fists from when the supplement first came out...

 

Stop!!! He’s already dead...

[Snazzy]

I suspect Heavy Bolters are the main concern, but I also suspect that GW was in some form embarrassed by IF artillery armies cleaning up at ITC.  Whatever the case, it appears they don't like the idea of high rate of fire heavy weapons being used to hurt tanks.  I just don't get why anyone is supposed to play Fists when there is such a conspiracy against them.

[DesSaboteur]

To be honest with the nerfs already put in place I was not using the Legacy of Dorn at all. I have played about a dozen games in 9th edition and don't  believe I have actually been able to use it due to limitations on Heavy Doctrine and more prevalence of blocking line of sight. 

 

With the new strategem allowing a unit to go back into the Dev doctrine it will become useful again but as its can only be used on Infantry or Bike if i remember right, will still be hard pressed to use it.

 

Although a squad of Eradicators with Multi-Meltas come to mind

[NatBrannigan]

Which is the problem with Eradicators... The bolt weapon specialists? Take Eradicators. Close combat specialists? Eradicators! Stealthy Marines? ERADICATORS!

 

Pretty disappointed that Fists are one of the weaker chapters and took another few hits. Even Tor Garadon now giving a +1 to hit instead of making something BS2 is a little kick in the nads. Yes we get it, 2 years ago Fist Whirlwinds and Thunderfires were amazing. You can stop hitting us with the nerf bat now! Please?

[Swordsman]

The change to Legacy of Dorn feels unreasonable, however, to be honest we have it integrated in the new heavy bolter profile, which is D 2 as base statline and effective on everything.

 

I love to run my fist with a triple contemptor mortis HB/CYCLONE loadout, and it now is absolutely better, being effective also against non vehicles units (tides, broadside, talos, tyr monsters, etc..)

 

Sad for the centurion, but the future is ineluctable towards primaris. My 6 centurions served me well but now it’s time to retire. Also for executioner and TF is time to rest .

 

However, with better HB, suppressor, dreads, heavy Intercessor and 3 shot assault hellblaster, and the new stuff, we can do very well.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Swordsman

[NatBrannigan]

I guess on the plus side there is now no downside to combining chapters and losing our, ahem "super" doctrine...

[Mandragola]

The change to Legacy of Dorn feels unreasonable, however, to be honest we have it integrated in the new heavy bolter profile, which is D 2 as base statline and effective on everything.

 

I love to run my fist with a triple contemptor mortis HB/CYCLONE loadout, and it now is absolutely better, being effective also against non vehicles units (tides, broadside, talos, tyr monsters, etc..)

 

Sad for the centurion, but the future is ineluctable towards primaris. My 6 centurions served me well but now it’s time to retire. Also for executioner and TF is time to rest .

 

However, with better HB, suppressor, dreads, heavy Intercessor and 3 shot assault hellblaster, and the new stuff, we can do very well.

Ok well this is a good way of looking at things. There are particular units that are a bit worse but not too many, and not by too much.

 

I’ve converted up 9 suppressors to avoid duplicates and even painted 6 of them. They’re now 50% better. Good.

 

I was already thinking of pivoting my intercessors towards auto rifles. This decision is now made. I’ll get dakka from troops and AT elsewhere. And yes, this means getting some Eradicators.

 

I’m sad redemptors lost the doctrine on their Gatling cannons. But the plasma option is now basically the same as a thermal cannon on an imperial knight, and you can fire it while walking along without hurting yourself. Happens also to be ideal for killing other people’s eradicators, if your redemptor somehow lives through their shooting.

 

Maybe the end result is that we’re back to being a mid-range army, useable but not outrageous. I can live with that.

[Marshal Reinhard]

It’s starting to look more and more like my fists are going to be using black Templar’s rules.

Joke's on you, we don't even have a superdoctrine anymore.

[DesSaboteur]

 

It’s starting to look more and more like my fists are going to be using black Templar’s rules.

Joke's on you, we don't even have a superdoctrine anymore.

 

Sounds like a bad joke until you realize it true

[jeremy1391]

 

 

 

 

It’s starting to look more and more like my fists are going to be using black Templar’s rules.

Joke's on you, we don't even have a superdoctrine anymore.

Sounds like a bad joke until you realize it true

Between being core, the upgrade to the heavy plasma and the strat that counts them as still and as being in all the doctrines you can have them moving around kicking out four damage for as long as you need it.

 

Eradicators with heavy melta and multi meltas could see the same happen but that may be overkill with how much damage eradicators are already kicking out.

[tvih]

The way they keep nerfing this stuff, it's reaaaally hard to find it justified that Devastator doctrine is still the first turn only, where it's high probably you can't even shoot at anything that'd benefit from the Superdoctrine. Obviously the IF doctrine was too good upon a time, but that time is long gone.

[Gederas]

 

Honestly, as some of the comments say here, the FAQ sucks only if you built your entire army around the idea that your non-dedicated Anti-Tank guns are now Anti-Tank guns.

 

This comment sums it up perfectly:
 

 

"Being able to take those middle-weight weapons and turn them into reasonably effective tank killers through weight of fire (and adding stratagems such as Tank Hunters and Seismic Devastation back when it was still current) gave the Fists a very unique playstyle and army build compared to other chapters."

 

...this also allowed them to reliably take down knights with bolters. Now I'm all for some cheese, but despite what the Space Marines Recruiter tells you, the bolter isn't, and shouldn't be, capable of that. That wanders into the realm of what I call some ol' b*ll  that shouldn't have been in the game in the first place.

 

Take this from a Dark Angels player, it could be worse. You could have gotten nothing for most of the edition, then got something and lose it within two weeks, then slowly lose the rest of it over the course of a couple months, and then in the FAQ get a bunch of cool stuff but all you feel is crushing dread of "Okay, so how much of this are we going to lose when the supplement comes out and afterwards?"

 

 

Imperial Fists weren't nerfed. Some very specific type of Imperial Fist builds were nerfed. Everything else about the army plays just fine.

 

Also, we all know probably the biggest upcoming reason why this nerf happened:

Edited October 11, 2020 by Gederas

[Lemondish]

Heavy Intercessors causing this? No. Not even close. 

 

It was the Gladiator Reaper. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Was definitely the Gladiator Reaper and not just Heavy Intercessors.

 

I would hope that they alter the doctrine in a future publication. The problem with most of the dev doctrines is that, in their initial form, they are just so good that you always wanted to be in them. With DA we were less affected by this, as the increased range was much better the first turn, and tended to drop off over time, so we would actually want to leave dev and go to tactical doctrine. Forcing that definitely nerfed us, but unless doing some real cheesy Talonmaster stuff, getting the tactical AP bonus ended up being something we would usually want to do.

The IH and IF doctrines have no such dropoff in utility to incentivize leaving.

Edited October 11, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[MegaVolt87]

Heavy Intercessors causing this? No. Not even close. 

 

It was the Gladiator Reaper. 

 

Yeah if GW had any brains they could have put the S7 restriction to vehicles and left the old part of how it worked to just infantry, bikes. GW really enjoy throwing the baby out with the bathwater when they re-balance things. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Lemondish]

 

 

Heavy Intercessors causing this? No. Not even close.

 

It was the Gladiator Reaper.

Yeah if GW had any brains they could have put the S7 restriction to vehicles and left the old part of how it worked to just infantry, bikes. GW really enjoy throwing the baby out with the bathwater when they re-balance things.

If GW had a better plan for IF we all wouldn't have had cheesy crap like infantry with Bolters shooting tanks. I'm glad that's gone.

 

Not glad that the cracks in the foundation have resulted in the whole Supplement falling apart.

[WrathOfTheLion]

It encouraged bad choices as well, given some of the comments. It looks like some folks would spec out this frankly ridiculous army, and now it just isn't viable at all anymore after returning to more sanity with it. Without some of that a bit more ridiculous stuff, they'd've been more likely to have invested their money in more a more bland build, which would still be viable in some capacity now.

Edited October 12, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Lemondish]

I would even go so far as to say that build was mostly destroyed by the Doctrine sequencing change.

 

I think the real pain is that folks are finally now seeing that the IF Supplement lacks key mechanics that make them a unique Marine force. There's some good, flavourful tools in there, but they're few and the relative power of those tools is pretty low.

 

The good out of this is of course that Tor is a better character now than he was prior to the latest Codex.

[Closet Skeleton]

It encouraged bad choices as well, given some of the comments. It looks like some folks would spec out this frankly ridiculous army, and now it just isn't viable at all anymore after returning to more sanity with it. Without some of that a bit more ridiculous stuff, they'd've been more likely to have invested their money in more a more bland build, which would still be viable in some capacity now.

 

I built a 'bland' build with no duplicate non-troops choices and lost pretty much all my anti-tank with this update so no, optimisation doesn't have that much to do with anything. Legacy of Dorn just happened to fill a gap in the seriously low anti-tank Primaris infantry range. I now have to take the flavour of the month eradicators to keep my army viable which is a good thing because it means the range isn't blatantly incomplete but is basically the first time I've had to 'meta chase' since I started using this army under the first 8th ed codex.

[Mandragola]

I would even go so far as to say that build was mostly destroyed by the Doctrine sequencing change.

 

I think the real pain is that folks are finally now seeing that the IF Supplement lacks key mechanics that make them a unique Marine force. There's some good, flavourful tools in there, but they're few and the relative power of those tools is pretty low.

 

The good out of this is of course that Tor is a better character now than he was prior to the latest Codex.

I think this is correct. I don't think people are defending the old version of the super doctrine, back when you could keep it going all game. The problem is that, without it, there's just nothing. The chapter tactic does very little, you have no movement abilities, nothing in melee and a very lacklustre set of strats. 

 

Comparing Fists now to armies like Salamanders and white scars is pretty grim. For example, Fists get a cool strat that gives them +1 to wound vehicles for 2CP. Pretty nice? Well Salamanders get a strat giving +1 to wound anything for 1CP. Fist Eradicators are good, like everyone else's, but they're not comparable with Salamanders ones.

 

Fists lack utility. Before now they made up for that through straight up firepower. But now that's gone, leaving an army with no particular ability in any area. They probably should have scrubbed the super doctrine and replaced it with something new instead of leaving it in this weird state.

[DesSaboteur]

 

I would even go so far as to say that build was mostly destroyed by the Doctrine sequencing change.

 

I think the real pain is that folks are finally now seeing that the IF Supplement lacks key mechanics that make them a unique Marine force. There's some good, flavourful tools in there, but they're few and the relative power of those tools is pretty low.

 

The good out of this is of course that Tor is a better character now than he was prior to the latest Codex.

I think this is correct. I don't think people are defending the old version of the super doctrine, back when you could keep it going all game. The problem is that, without it, there's just nothing. The chapter tactic does very little, you have no movement abilities, nothing in melee and a very lacklustre set of strats. 

 

Comparing Fists now to armies like Salamanders and white scars is pretty grim. For example, Fists get a cool strat that gives them +1 to wound vehicles for 2CP. Pretty nice? Well Salamanders get a strat giving +1 to wound anything for 1CP. Fist Eradicators are good, like everyone else's, but they're not comparable with Salamanders ones.

 

Fists lack utility. Before now they made up for that through straight up firepower. But now that's gone, leaving an army with no particular ability in any area. They probably should have scrubbed the super doctrine and replaced it with something new instead of leaving it in this weird state.

 

I agree with this statement. Im not going to be running around screaming that i need D3 Heavy bolters. There was some obvious problems with how Legacy of Dorn was working but it was what helped define the army, but instead of reworking the ability its now been chipped away to near nothing. 

 

I played a game this weekend with the new marine codex and after the battle i realized i did not use the IF supplement at all, not a single stratagem, character or ability. I know this partly my fault but it goes to show how messy the book has gotten that i never felt like i needed anything from it.

 

The Legacy of Dorn has always been conflicting with the army anyway as its a precision bolter army. If anything it should be a Tacticial Doctrine ability that give plus one to hit on bolt weapons or causes exploding bolts shots on 5's and 6's. Instead we are left scattered on direction and what i feel is a generic yellow marine.