Which DA hero would you like to see cross the Rubicon?

[jaxom]

Used. Space marine logistics have always been at the whim of authorial mandate and never shackled to reason. Part of the whole schtick is that the Imperium has declined. The new HH lore, to me, just emphasizes that the Dark Angels had more to lose and they did lose it. The Chapter's advanced technologies in the 41st millenium are limited to the models currently out and whatever ones get stuffed into stratagems. If GW wants to pull, "Oh, here's all these hidden caches of ancient tech that the Dark Angels were sitting on and are now bringing out," I think that would be worse than, "Cawl's been working on new tech for 10,000 and he made improvements, but nothing truly new."

[Ishagu]

@Volt

 

So it's a good thing that a substantial part of the Cawl being happens to be the last surviving and possibly greatest Terran scientist that worked alongside the Emperor?

Edited October 12, 2020 by Ishagu

[ValourousHeart]

 I'm hoping that with our new codex we either get a new model for Sammael or he gets Sableclaw back.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I would like to see that.

Will be interesting to see who they do. That Lazarus was a more generic kit, and was moved to online only about a month after release struck me as quite odd.

None of the other new chapter characters were marked as online only, so it obviously stands out. Something makes me doubt they would be planning updated characters for all the first founding chapters and just forgot one of them.

Edited October 12, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[bigtrouble]

Lore-wise I think Lazarus is a dead end. He’s too focused on the anti-psyker thing, and his name obviously having to do with resurrection, the whole thing was kind of canned for Psychic Awakening.

[Brother Tyler]

The discussion about the technology that the Dark Angels Legion used is off topic. It's an interesting topic, but it should be taken up in its own topic rather than derailing this discussion, which is about which characters, if any, should become Primaris.

[Bryan Blaire]

Now as far as our characters go, I do disagree with Brother Tyler and BB that we should have most of our characters killed off. Some of them, like Azrael and Ezekiel, have never had their model updated since their initial release circa 1995. They are not in a retireable state, and I don't think they should end in the state they are. Now if they were to update the model with a new non-Primaris kit, then I would be more sympathetic, but as it stands these are some of the oldest models in the game and need an update.

 

However, if it's just them making new models, then to hell with it at this point, do all of them. The illusion that heroes will 'die' from the process was stillborn given how it started.

I believe you may age misunderstood - I personally didn't mean it should just be DA characters to die off - ALL of the named Space Marine characters from all Chapters should have died off for the new Edition - even the ones that had undergone the Rubicon Primaris - Guilliman, Calgar, Tigirius, Chronos, Ragnar, Lukas, Logan, Azrael, Sapphon, Erik Morkai, Kor'sorro, Ochir, Shrike, Aevar, Lysander, Tor Garradon, Mephiston, Dante, etc. If they were a named character before the 13th Crusade, then they should have died at some point in the time frame between fighting in the 13th Crusade through to the current time frame - period. They didn't need to die during the Rubicon (although there should be at least some death from it, even if it's not named characters, and it should be remarked on so that there's at least some illusion that doing it isn't an automatic save), and it has nothing to do with whether they have or had a model at any point.

 

Being a Space Marine is dangerous, as evidenced by the fact that the DA have now gone through two Masters of the 5th Company, and the 13th Black Crusade was supposed to be cataclysmic, and there was supposed to have massive upheaval after the coming of the Cicatrix Maledictum and the wars for 100+ years it would have caused. Characters should have died - and as Brother Tyler said - not killing characters is really just pandering, but not doing it has just continued to make the universe further lacking in verisimilitude. This wasn't as big a deal and was easy to hand wave when the movement of the setting was in time numbering less than a decade between editions, but now they've gone and jumped 100+ years. Characters should have died, even with longevity treatments or naturally being long lived because they were made to be, the universe has been very violent in that intervening time.

 

Now, because GW is a business and is going to pander to customers, verisimilitude isn't really at the top of their world-building agenda - people like their official heroes (:sick:), so GW isn't going to risk sales and customer outcry by doing this - I accept this as reality.

 

That is the reason why I said that it should be Azrael and Ezekiel that undergo the Rubicon first (thus keeping it on topic).

[WrathOfTheLion]

Fair enough. I just don't see them doing that. They couldn't even do that for their other games after they nuked the entire universe, so I just never had any expectations that anything of the sort could ever happen.

 

I agree on those two, they are too old of models and I think they need to prioritize updating those, along with similarly aged characters like Dante and the Phoenix Lords.

Edited October 12, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Aeri]

Now, because GW is a business and is going to pander to customers, verisimilitude isn't really at the top of their world-building agenda - people like their official heroes (:sick:), so GW isn't going to risk sales and customer outcry by doing this - I accept this as reality.

And a frickin successful one!

Their stocks are going crazy and help to finance my hobby needs :D

[Berzul]

 

Now as far as our characters go, I do disagree with Brother Tyler and BB that we should have most of our characters killed off. Some of them, like Azrael and Ezekiel, have never had their model updated since their initial release circa 1995. They are not in a retireable state, and I don't think they should end in the state they are. Now if they were to update the model with a new non-Primaris kit, then I would be more sympathetic, but as it stands these are some of the oldest models in the game and need an update.

 

However, if it's just them making new models, then to hell with it at this point, do all of them. The illusion that heroes will 'die' from the process was stillborn given how it started.

I believe you may age misunderstood - I personally didn't mean it should just be DA characters to die off - ALL of the named Space Marine characters from all Chapters should have died off for the new Edition - even the ones that had undergone the Rubicon Primaris - Guilliman, Calgar, Tigirius, Chronos, Ragnar, Lukas, Logan, Azrael, Sapphon, Erik Morkai, Kor'sorro, Ochir, Shrike, Aevar, Lysander, Tor Garradon, Mephiston, Dante, etc. If they were a named character before the 13th Crusade, then they should have died at some point in the time frame between fighting in the 13th Crusade through to the current time frame - period. They didn't need to die during the Rubicon (although there should be at least some death from it, even if it's not named characters, and it should be remarked on so that there's at least some illusion that doing it isn't an automatic save), and it has nothing to do with whether they have or had a model at any point.

 

Being a Space Marine is dangerous, as evidenced by the fact that the DA have now gone through two Masters of the 5th Company, and the 13th Black Crusade was supposed to be cataclysmic, and there was supposed to have massive upheaval after the coming of the Cicatrix Maledictum and the wars for 100+ years it would have caused. Characters should have died - and as Brother Tyler said - not killing characters is really just pandering, but not doing it has just continued to make the universe further lacking in verisimilitude. This wasn't as big a deal and was easy to hand wave when the movement of the setting was in time numbering less than a decade between editions, but now they've gone and jumped 100+ years. Characters should have died, even with longevity treatments or naturally being long lived because they were made to be, the universe has been very violent in that intervening time.

 

Now, because GW is a business and is going to pander to customers, verisimilitude isn't really at the top of their world-building agenda - people like their official heroes (:sick:), so GW isn't going to risk sales and customer outcry by doing this - I accept this as reality.

 

That is the reason why I said that it should be Azrael and Ezekiel that undergo the Rubicon first (thus keeping it on topic).

You could almost argue that the Cicatrix Maledictum, the Fall of Cadia, the 13th Black Crusade, and the return of the Ultramarines Primarch should have, or could have, constituted the creation of a new game.

 

Just like the Horus Heresy game exists in a time frame that is entirely separate from the 41st Milennium, in between the 41st and the 42nd Milennium there exists enough difference for the game to have had the chance to split in two.

 

In the Indomitus Era Warhammer 40k, we see a lore that tells of entire chapters being decimated (such as the Fistborn Blood Angels), of heroes dying (although secondary and more or less inconsequential ones), of great leaders returning (Roboute, the Silent King, perhaps even more), and specially, we see factions moving forward in huge ways. The T'au can now warp travel with limited capabilities, the Astartes have been revamped to such an extent you could argue that Primaris and Firstborn should and/or could be two entirely diferent factions, etc.

 

GW could have just up and own their own lore, and given three games instead of two. Horus Heresy, 41st Milennium, and Indomitus. The last one being one in which the old heroes are dead, new heroes arise, the old marines are gone, and the galaxy is enduring its greatest hardships since the time of the Heresy.

 

You'd have HH for old school armies, the. 41st for your "dark ages of a galaxy without primarchs", and Indomitus for the dangerous reinassance of the universe.

 

EDIT: in that sense, you could have solved the whole Primaris vs Firstborn thing too, by just killing off not just heroes, but the entire faction, and replacing it with the new stuff. Only, on this NEW game.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Berzul

[FarFromSam]

The rubicon doesn't exist. Give me truescale Bethor, or truescale Ezekiel in the exact same pose. Hell, The 40k version of the innercircle knights Cenobium (bladeguard) look nice enough for Bethor to jump in on.

[CMDR_Welles]

Luther

[Berzul]

Luther

It would be FREAKING amazing if Luther came back, with a new Fallen Supplement for the Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++BLASPHEMY!+++

 

Yup, hunting that guy would be fun.

[Berzul]

+++BLASPHEMY!+++

 

Yup, hunting that guy would be fun.

... YEAH! Th--that's totally what I meant!

 

That it would be FREAKING amazing for him to come back, so that we can fight him!!! :D

 

No blasphemy here!

[WrathOfTheLion]

Nope, none. These black Space Marines I'm painting are only for the 30k game system, never ever going to see use elsewhere regardless of circumstances.

[Angel of Solitude]

If you wanted to go full Fallen release, then Daemon Prince Marbas could get a model, and I also seem to recall Astelan has found freedom too...but this is all for another thread!

 

Back on thread, I keep coming back to Sammael, initially because I thought it would be awesome if he swapped Sableclaw for some beefy Storm Speeder upgrade. But then, Corvex is incredibly iconic - once billed as the last remaining Jetbike in service, so it would be sad to see this piece of lore go. 

 

Unless.

 

Unless they reconfigured it to accommodate his new Primaris build. That could be quite a sweet looking model, and may explain why there is no Sableclaw entry in the Index, as he'll just go straight Primaris on Corvex!

[G8Keeper]

I think the inclusion of Sammael on Corvex in the FAQ probably signifies it's in the supplement.  I can't see them having a Firstborn and Primaris version of the same character in the same book, therefore I don't think Sammael will go Primaris.  Obviously stranger things have happened mind you.

 

My money is on Sapphon or Asmodai as I don't think we've yet had a Primaris named chaplain? It would also be an easy one for GW without having to either invent an armour type/reason why Gravis is now in Deatwhing (Belial) and they could come up with a cool anti-fallen story to boot.  They could do something similar with Azrael too, but Lazarus is very similar mini wise IMHO and they'll want something a bit different that will sell.

Edited October 13, 2020 by G8Keeper

[Master Sheol]

I think the inclusion of Sammael on Corvex in the FAQ probably signifies it's in the supplement. I can't see them having a Firstborn and Primaris version of the same character in the same book, therefore I don't think Sammael will go Primaris. Obviously stranger things have happened mind you.

 

My money is on Sapphon or Asmodai as I don't think we've yet had a Primaris named chaplain? It would also be an easy one for GW without having to either invent an armour type/reason why Gravis is now in Deatwhing (Belial) and they could come up with a cool anti-fallen story to boot. They could do something similar with Azrael too, but Lazarus is very similar mini wise IMHO and they'll want something a bit different that will sell.

Well all DA characters are included in PDF in their firstborn version so maybe no primaris ones alomgside the supplement?

It would be dissapointing though

[Aeri]

Wouldn't shock me either.

[G8Keeper]

 

Well all DA characters are included in PDF in their firstborn version so maybe no primaris ones alomgside the supplement?

It would be dissapointing though

 

 

Quite probably the case.  I would expect maybe the remnants of the already revealed new Primaris stuff to accompany our book with data cards. Unless of course there is another new DA character coming in that blindsides everybody.

[Brother Tyler]

The .pdfs were published to hold players over until the shiny new codex supplements are released - no one was turned into Primaris for the .pdf. You should expect some characters to become Primaris when the codex supplements are released (directing this at all of the Chapters, not just the Dark Angels).

[WrathOfTheLion]

I do not think it's true that it implies that no character could be updated, as we have prior evidence to the contrary. They published PDFs for Raven Guard when the last codex came out with an updated Shrike datasheet, just to make a new kit for him when the book was released.

 

Something would have to suffice in the interregnum between the invalidation of Codex: Dark Angels and the publishing of Codex Supplement: Dark Angels and release of any miniature, so the inclusion of any datasheets in the index is inconclusive to who could be updated.

 

Now, the exclusion of something like Sammael on Sableclaw for Dark Angels and Njal Stormcaller in power armor for Space Wolves could be evidence towards a conclusion. Although I could see optimization, the most obvious removal one would think would be Captain Tycho for the Blood Angels, who maintains both his permutations in their index. In the case of Sammael, the landspeeder and Ravenwing upgrade sprue build the kit, with the same build as the Talonmaster, so it is the most noteworthy exclusion I think, as there is no evidence that this kit would be retired.

Edited October 13, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Brother Borgia]

Azraël or a primaris terminator Ezekiel. 
 

But I would be extremely surprised if we receive anything with our supplement. Despite the fact we got a DA lieutenant with our codex and Lazarus with our not-supplement.

[Helias_Tancred]

I've heard rumors that our first chapter character to cross the rubicon will be Asmodai, and that he will be released alongside our codex supplement, cards, dice, etc.

 

My preference is either Azrael or Ezekiel?