Which DA hero would you like to see cross the Rubicon?

[Master Sheol]

I've heard rumors that our first chapter character to cross the rubicon will be Asmodai, and that he will be released alongside our codex supplement, cards, dice, etc.

 

My preference is either Azrael or Ezekiel?

Asmodai is the worst DA character and i hate him

He has weak rules (he is just a regular interrogator-chaplain with a weak special rule and a fancy but weak piece of Warner) and a ugly lore (he was interesting in the past -he was stoica and determined- but they changed him into a monodimensional dumb second rate antihero one later -a dumber version of the Punisher-)

The only good thing would be if they make him a dual build like Lazarus to make also a generic primaris interrogator-chaplain with both datasheets in the supplement

If not i think i will not buy him

 

I would buy for sure any other primarized DA character but not Asmodai

Edited October 14, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Helias_Tancred]

 

I've heard rumors that our first chapter character to cross the rubicon will be Asmodai, and that he will be released alongside our codex supplement, cards, dice, etc.

 

My preference is either Azrael or Ezekiel?

Asmodai is the worst DA character and i hate him

He has weak rules (he is just a regular interrogator-chaplain with a weak special rule and a fancy but weak piece of Warner) and a ugly lore (he was interesting in the past -he was stoica and determined- but they changed him into a monodimensional dumb second rate antihero one later -a dumber version of the Punisher-)

The only good thing would be if they make him a dual build like Lazarus to make also a generic primaris interrogator-chaplain with both datasheets in the supplement

If not i think i will not buy him

 

I would buy for sure any other primarized DA character but not Asmodai

 

 

I'd prefer the old Asmodai too! 

 

I'm not a big fan of the "little attack dog" vibe he is given in the Legacy of Caliban trilogy. 

[Master Sheol]

 

 

 

I've heard rumors that our first chapter character to cross the rubicon will be Asmodai, and that he will be released alongside our codex supplement, cards, dice, etc.

 

My preference is either Azrael or Ezekiel?

Asmodai is the worst DA character and i hate him

He has weak rules (he is just a regular interrogator-chaplain with a weak special rule and a fancy but weak piece of Warner) and a ugly lore (he was interesting in the past -he was stoica and determined- but they changed him into a monodimensional dumb second rate antihero one later -a dumber version of the Punisher-)

The only good thing would be if they make him a dual build like Lazarus to make also a generic primaris interrogator-chaplain with both datasheets in the supplement

If not i think i will not buy him

 

I would buy for sure any other primarized DA character but not Asmodai

I'd prefer the old Asmodai too!

 

I'm not a big fan of the "little attack dog" vibe he is given in the Legacy of Caliban trilogy.

I agree

But all recent DA lore (40k and HH) is made by bad writers (like Gavin Thorpe) and they messe up all the DA story

Before the Fall of Caliban DA was and order of knights like the Templars or the Teutonic so they had their rituale and all but they were stoic heroes, serious but not "evil" leaded by a taciturn but brilliant strategist that had a great sense of honour

They become the dark brotherhood they are now due to the shock of the Fall of Caliban and the loss of the Lion

They are still knights in their hearts but the shame of the Fallen instilled in them the will to search for redemption by any means

They are not evil in their hearts but they look cold to outsiders cause they are focused on their secret agenda

 

The recent lore ruined all cause DA seems to be dark antiheroes even before the Fall and this way they deleted the importante of the psicological implications on the Fall on the DA beliefs

Now they were always like they are now and when the Fall happened they just said "ok it happened now let cover all under the carpet and hunt the fallen" and they wear robes cause it's cool instead of being a mark of the DW/inner circle that had the mean to hide the shame for the Fall (in fact in 2nd edition the robes were a character/inner circle thing only then in 3rd they became a DW thing too with veteran sergeants drawn from DW wearing them)

 

Asmodai is the character who paid the highest toll in this banalisation of DA lore cause he became the dumb :cuss he is now with 6th edition codex while in 2nd edition one his short story depicts a dark but determinerà chaplain all focused on the redemption of the Fallen and fiercly loyal to the Emperor and the Lion

Sapphon is a way more interesting character but unfortunately GW stile his 2nd edition miniature to make Asmodai instead (Sapphon had the Crozius/Sword wargear while Asmodai had just the Blades of Reason) probably cause GW designer were the idea that the blades of reason were a cool thing and they decided so (pity that during the ages that wargear always had terrible rules adding nothing to Asmodai profile that was always been just a generic IntChap with and exotic knife)

[G8Keeper]

I do not think it's true that it implies that no character could be updated, as we have prior evidence to the contrary. They published PDFs for Raven Guard when the last codex came out with an updated Shrike datasheet, just to make a new kit for him when the book was released.

 

Something would have to suffice in the interregnum between the invalidation of Codex: Dark Angels and the publishing of Codex Supplement: Dark Angels and release of any miniature, so the inclusion of any datasheets in the index is inconclusive to who could be updated.

 

Now, the exclusion of something like Sammael on Sableclaw for Dark Angels and Njal Stormcaller in power armor for Space Wolves could be evidence towards a conclusion. Although I could see optimization, the most obvious removal one would think would be Captain Tycho for the Blood Angels, who maintains both his permutations in their index. In the case of Sammael, the landspeeder and Ravenwing upgrade sprue build the kit, with the same build as the Talonmaster, so it is the most noteworthy exclusion I think, as there is no evidence that this kit would be retired.

 

Hey I'll be happy to be proven wrong :)

[WrathOfTheLion]

Oh yeah. Just meant we can't conclude anything from included datasheets. If they redo a character, they have to have a datasheet for legends anyways.

 

Asmodai would be fine, but his model is relatively new. Definitely one of the least utilitarian picks, considering that Azrael and Ezekiel are aiming for the 30 years trophy, and Sammael should be about 20 now as well.

Edited October 14, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Berzul]

Honestly, if it is about revamping the models due to age, they should just redo them all. Every single one.

EDIT: Now, you COULD use the old Master model from Dark Vengeance, with a watcher, as Azrael.... Master Balthasar's model is equipped exactly as you'd have Azrael, with the winged helmet, sword, combi plasma.... He is the right size, good model overall. No need to go Primaris.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Berzul

[bevulf]

Oh yeah. Just meant we can't conclude anything from included datasheets. If they redo a character, they have to have a datasheet for legends anyways.

 

Asmodai would be fine, but his model is relatively new. Definitely one of the least utilitarian picks, considering that Azrael and Ezekiel are aiming for the 30 years trophy, and Sammael should be about 20 now as well.

 

Sammael on Corvex was released in 2007 alongside the 4th edition DA codex and plenty of other releases - plastic company veterans, plastic ravenwing bikers, azrael and ezekiel got thier metal banners etc. Lot of the kits are very old now, Azrael and Ezekiel being the oldest in entire range. Hope they will be updated in primaris form asap.

[eternal_warrior12]

If I have to choose one?!? Master Sheol and I are on the same page. Prime Belial in Gravis armor please.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Much rather Belial stays in Terminator armor or Bladeguard Armor.

 

Don't like Gravis in the Deathwing, because it's already in the Greenwing. At least with BG they put all in on this goes here, that goes there.

[Volt]

Much rather Belial stays in Terminator armor or Bladeguard Armor.

 

Don't like Gravis in the Deathwing, because it's already in the Greenwing. At least with BG they put all in on this goes here, that goes there.

It's more that Belial is DOA if he doesn't get teleportation strike with terminator armor. If Belial goes primaris but gets just run of the mill Gravis armor, I'm never touching it because of the PIA that is busing primaris characters around to their needed destination because for some reason they have zero mobility options worth a damn. Azrael going Primaris would also suck for similar reason of not being able to simply scoot around in a dirt cheap Rhino, but without teleporter strike there's not even a real reason to bring Belial anymore over just a generic Terminator Master.

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Azrael or Sapphon for me. For Azrael, its mostly because he needs a new model.

[solarisqc]

Just a crazy idea running in my head...

 

What if the inner circle rules give teleport strike as an ability.

 

One of the main reason people don't want primaris Azreal, Belial and other is because you lose the mobility of cheap transport. It's something i always find strange with the rules/role of DA. You have everyone in the inner circle that are member of the Deathwing, they have done dozen if not hundred of deployment in TDA, countless was by teleporting from ship in space to the heart of the action and when they acces to the high command... they forgot where the teleportarium is on the Rock/Ship. Belial is on TDA so no problem for him, but if he become primaris he's in trouble.

 

With the new way GW are writing codex, they add the chapter command with a mechanic to increase the point/PL of some unit to give them new ability and option. It will be realy easy to use this to increase the point/PL and to give Inner circle unit the option to go in a teleportarium and gain the Teleport strike ability. With this simple mechanic, you can have bladeguard teleporting with the Deathwing, and give a new way for DA to include primaris in the Deathwing and keeping the special deployment  they normaly do.

 

No one want a primaris Deathwing master than can't go in the same transport as terminator and can't DS go to the heart of battle. it will be realy nice if they use this supplement to implement DS as a special deployment for DA Inner circle and it will fix a big problem about the Deathwing in primaris successor chapter.

[Master Sheol]

Belial will not get primaris until GW will release the primaris equivalent of TDA

You can see this because nome of the TDA wearing characters have been primarised

The only one was Marneus but he was a dual PA/TDA character so GW gave him a modified gravis that is halfway between PA and TDA but he is not in a REAL primaris TDA cause he is wearing a custom piece of wargear

 

With the expansion of the use of gravis armour in many units and the appereance of a new gravis wearing captain we can say without doubt that gravis is NOT a primaris TDA

 

Excluding Belial the 4 renmaining DA characters are all in PA and are all available to cross the Rubicon but i don't think Sammael will be selected this time cause i think he will be primarised when GW will release some specific primaris units for RW (the same way as Belial then)

 

Of the renmaining three ones the most interesting for the primaris treatment is Asmodai cause GW can use this chance to make a dual kit like they did with Master Lazarus (but in that case was a generis DA Master kit that was modified to represent a special character too) to give us also a generic primaris Interrogator-Chaplain

[Ishagu]

Calgar went from TDA to custom Gravis.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yes, but we have determined that GW does not view Gravis as the equivalent for TDA for the purposes of the DA chapter, as evident that Gravis is not in Deathwing, but Bladeguard is. So at this time, we can conclude that Belial would not be put in Gravis armour, as it doesn't even match the Primaris forces in the Deathwing company.

 

We also know they have to do a further Deathwing and Ravenwing expansion at some point, whether that be new datasheets or updating lore for primaris chapters to have the existing ones. Especially with DW, there's absolutely no way you could field a full DW army for an Ultima founding chapter, as there's only a maximum of 18 BGVs. We scrape the barrel with access to the Terminator datasheets we have with maximum squad sizes of 10, one single datasheet with maximum 6 doesn't stretch very far.

 

Ravenwing has no officers available to the Primaris, so there's an obvious hole there as well. Was surprised to not see a Lieutenant on bike or a primaris bike captain in the base codex.

Edited October 23, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[jaxom]

 

The recent lore ruined all cause DA seems to be dark antiheroes even before the Fall and this way they deleted the importante of the psicological implications on the Fall on the DA beliefs

Now they were always like they are now and when the Fall happened they just said "ok it happened now let cover all under the carpet and hunt the fallen" and they wear robes cause it's cool instead of being a mark of the DW/inner circle that had the mean to hide the shame for the Fall (in fact in 2nd edition the robes were a character/inner circle thing only then in 3rd they became a DW thing too with veteran sergeants drawn from DW wearing them)

 

The Horus Heresy is the Celestial Fall and the Dark Angels were the Fall of Camelot. But the Fall of Camelot doesn't work (as a narrative and mythology) if Arthur and the Round Table were a bunch of gits.

 

Yes, but we have determined that GW does not view Gravis as the equivalent for TDA for the purposes of the DA chapter, as evident that Gravis is not in Deathwing, but Bladeguard is. So at this time, we can conclude that Belial would not be put in Gravis armour, as it doesn't even match the Primaris forces in the Deathwing company.

 

We also know they have to do a further Deathwing and Ravenwing expansion at some point, whether that be new datasheets or updating lore for primaris chapters to have the existing ones. Especially with DW, there's absolutely no way you could field a full DW army for an Ultima founding chapter, as there's only a maximum of 18 BGVs. We scrape the barrel with access to the Terminator datasheets we have with maximum squad sizes of 10, one single datasheet with maximum 6 doesn't stretch very far.

 

Ravenwing has no officers available to the Primaris, so there's an obvious hole there as well. Was surprised to not see a Lieutenant on bike or a primaris bike captain in the base codex.

 

And we're back to what defines the Deathwing; who gets the keyword and who doesn't. Librarians get it regardless, even the ones in Phobos armour. All Terminator units get it. Those are the defaults for generic Codex units. Azrael, Ezekiel, Asmodai, Belial, Interrogator-Chaplains, Chapter units in Terminator armor, are the Chapter specific units which get it. The majority of characters with the Deathwing keyword don't wear Terminator armor. I'm not saying it would be appropriate for the Master of the Deathwing, specifically, to wear something other than Terminator armour, but we should also remember that Calgar's Armour of Heraclus (Gravis) was made from the Armour of Antilochus (Terminator).

 

I don't think it's safe to assume that there's any intent for Ultima successor chapters to deploy an entire Deathwing keyword army on the table at the moment. I think it comes down to when GW is ready to weather the backlash of some fans yelling that the ability to field all Primaris for Deathwing and Ravenwing (across all the Force Org slots) is the absolute death knell of Firstborn kits. That's not to say one couldn't make such an army without filling all the Force Org slots. 

 

Two Primaris Librarians (2 HQ)

Three BGV (3 elites x 6 models)

Three Redemptor Dreadnoughts (3 elites)

Three Repulsors and/or Repulsor-Executioners (3 heavy supports)

 

Over 2,000 points of Deathwing Primaris in a Vanguard detachment. Oh, the vehicles? Codex Space Marines has a RE in Deathwing colors and if there's no upgrade strat for Dreadnoughts then I guess it's either because the Deathwing lost all of theirs or we're temporarily (or permanently depending on the supplement) back to the paint scheme determining if a Dreadnought is Deathwing or not. Ravenwing is easier:

 

Two Primaris Chaplain on Bike

Any mix of Outriders, Invaders, and Stormwings to fill 3-6 Fast Attack slots.

 

As a designer, I can point to the rules-legal options and say, "It can be done, stop bothering me," because it still performs within a specific metric of success. Now, we could get more specific: there's no built in ObSec, the weapon options are limited, there's no blender-HQ or blender-Elite unit, etc. That all leads into a larger discussion about codex design, list design, competitive lists vs tournament lists, etc.

Edited October 23, 2020 by jaxom

[WrathOfTheLion]

Absolutely don't see the intent, that was more the point of it. Even with the new influx of units, they are obviously supplementary to the existing Firstborn options.

 

That you can make a list doesn't pass a basic sniff test. The basic construction of the Ravenwing, as a Space Marine company, would have a Master/Captain, a set of Talonmasters/Lieutenants and then the outriders, speeders, etc. That is the obvious basic minimum requirements for an expression of it. A chaplain may be an HQ option to get a list, but I specifically stated officers.

 

The Deathwing I believe will get LTs and even perhaps a Master, which puts them most of the way there. Their big limitation is on datasheet support, with only the BGV available. Yes, you can dump all your points in tanks and dreadnoughts to get to 2000 points, but nobody wants to do that.

 

I do believe that it is a Repulsor in C:SM, not a RE. It would match WD from last year, where they mention them using repulsors as transports.

 

Anyways, what all that means is since RW are missing their officer cadre, I would actually expect Sammael or some expansion there before Belial/Deathwing.

Edited October 23, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[jaxom]

Absolutely don't see the intent, that was more the point of it. Even with the new influx of units, they are obviously supplementary to the existing Firstborn options.

 

That you can make a list doesn't pass a basic sniff test. The basic construction of the Ravenwing, as a Space Marine company, would have a Master/Captain, a set of Talonmasters/Lieutenants and then the outriders, speeders, etc. That is the obvious basic minimum requirements for an expression of it. A chaplain may be an HQ option to get a list, but I specifically stated officers.

 

To clarify: the lack of full company options is part of why I think it all leads to a larger discussion of codex design. Designers can either rectify the problem with new units/rules or they can slap some lore over it. The production pipeline will impact that decision. Until such a time that production can match full conceptual vision a codex will be stuck either ignoring such issues or handwaving them. Phobos infantry, Storm Speeders, and Outriders in the second company and fulfilling the same role as the Ravenwing. I'd even bet pretty strongly on that being what makes it into the supplement assuming they deign to look at all Primaris successors and assuming they don't just say, "screw it," and Ultima successors don't have a dedicated Ravenwing company.

 

Personally, I'm just getting more and more fed up with how badly I think GW and BL dropped the ball on getting in front of the Dark Angel Ultima successors issue. The Dark Angels can't figure out how to handle Primaris in their own chapter, how are they supposed to react to full chapters of successors ripe for the Fallen to mess with? Only tell the Bladeguard and Librarians for some reason, apparently, but even they're not allowed into the Inner Circle. Yeah, all the fast attack elements required to back up the Hunt are still there (Ravenwing), but no Primaris leadership, no Black Knights, no Talonmasters. I can make that work - the Dark Angels are pulling the strings, giving orders to Librarians and BGVs who've been invited to the Rock for "pilgrimage" (i.e. tested and either sent back, disappeared, or inducted and sent back) then oversee and report back on what the rest of the Primaris are doing, including the pseudo-Ravenwing. Circles within circles and not even the successor chapter master is necessarily trusted with Deathwing knowledge.

 

Bladeguard Lieutenants are Deathwing Lieutenants. That the Deathwing Knight Master, the one most in training to lead a company, was not separated out as a character (in 8th) and given Tactical Precision, I think, speaks volumes of what the design team thinks of Deathwing Terminator Lieutenants.

[WrathOfTheLion]

There should be Terminator Lieutenants in general, seemed odd to me it isn't in the base codex.

 

There are Lieutenants in a Codex 1st Company. Do they not have access to terminator armor, when members of the company do?

 

For having a Deathwing and Ravenwing, the only thing I think they need for an MVP is a way to get a Primaris Deathwing Master and LTs and a Ravenwing Master/Talonmaster. Then, even if not fully expressable on the tabletop, it's at least believable in that you can have the company masters and their subordinate officers. As of now, you can't really field a command squad for any primaris company yet, so that part I don't think needs to be addressed for believability.

 

So the only thing 'missing' for them to say Ultima founding successors are reorganized with Ravenwing and Deathwing formations is the base officer cadre of the Ravenwing. Hence what leads me to believe if something would be addressed, it would be there first.

 

Anyways, that's my opinion on why I think Sammael or a generic RW Master could be next, as it can be reasoned that there's a hole there. Going a bit off topic any further than that.

Edited October 23, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Master Sheol]

You have to consider only one thing

If a unforgiven Ultima Founding chapter would not have all the required option is not because they don't esist but instead because GW still have to make them all

 

Making a totally new from scratch range of models is a time consuming process that requires a huge investiment in money to create all the necessary mould for the plastic models

 

So it's only a matter of time before GW will give us all the options necessary to make a 100% primaris chapter and probably one day also dedicated kits for primaris RW and DW too

 

Patience will pay

Until the we will play with what we have

Edited October 23, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Master Sheol]

There should be Terminator Lieutenants in general, seemed odd to me it isn't in the base codex.

 

There are Lieutenants in a Codex 1st Company. Do they not have access to terminator armor, when members of the company do?

 

For having a Deathwing and Ravenwing, the only thing I think they need for an MVP is a way to get a Primaris Deathwing Master and LTs and a Ravenwing Master/Talonmaster. Then, even if not fully expressable on the tabletop, it's at least believable in that you can have the company masters and their subordinate officers. As of now, you can't really field a command squad for any primaris company yet, so that part I don't think needs to be addressed for believability.

 

So the only thing 'missing' for them to say Ultima founding successors are reorganized with Ravenwing and Deathwing formations is the base officer cadre of the Ravenwing. Hence what leads me to believe if something would be addressed, it would be there first.

 

Anyways, that's my opinion on why I think Sammael or a generic RW Master could be next, as it can be reasoned that there's a hole there. Going a bit off topic any further than that.

The problem about making a TDA lieutenant for the DW is that it would not possible to make it stand out

The smart idea for RW was to make the old Sammael LS build into the Talonmaster so you have a lieutenant that stands out compared to all other units of the RW

For the DW lieutenant there is not current solution that could make a suitable model out from the DW kit

[jaxom]

 

There should be Terminator Lieutenants in general, seemed odd to me it isn't in the base codex.

 

There are Lieutenants in a Codex 1st Company. Do they not have access to terminator armor, when members of the company do?

 

For having a Deathwing and Ravenwing, the only thing I think they need for an MVP is a way to get a Primaris Deathwing Master and LTs and a Ravenwing Master/Talonmaster. Then, even if not fully expressable on the tabletop, it's at least believable in that you can have the company masters and their subordinate officers. As of now, you can't really field a command squad for any primaris company yet, so that part I don't think needs to be addressed for believability.

 

So the only thing 'missing' for them to say Ultima founding successors are reorganized with Ravenwing and Deathwing formations is the base officer cadre of the Ravenwing. Hence what leads me to believe if something would be addressed, it would be there first.

 

Anyways, that's my opinion on why I think Sammael or a generic RW Master could be next, as it can be reasoned that there's a hole there. Going a bit off topic any further than that.

The problem about making a TDA lieutenant for the DW is that it would not possible to make it stand out

The smart idea for RW was to make the old Sammael LS build into the Talonmaster so you have a lieutenant that stands out compared to all other units of the RW

For the DW lieutenant there is not current solution that could make a suitable model out from the DW kit

 

 

This is why I thought if they were going to do it then they'd pull the Knight Master out of the unit and make him a character. Boost him to 4 or 5 wounds, give him one extra attack, and Tactical Precision. Heck, make it so he doesn't use an Elite Slot if you've a unit of Deathwing Knights. Done.

[bigtrouble]

According to most fluff, only the 2nd founding chapters are part of the Hunt. Not sure why the issues with ultima founding and full primaris other than just that they can technically be called successors. I think we have many many years left of first born in the DA chapter, so I wouldn’t expect rapid expansion of Primaris officers in the 9th edition.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't think that's correct, as it was the Consecrators and a few other of the non-2nd founding that were decimated at the Darkmore massacre in the 8E codex lore.

 

The description starts,

 

'Elements of half a dozen Unforgiven Chapters descend upon the shrine world of Darkmor, including multiple companies from the Angels of Vengeance, the Consecrators and the Guardians of the Covenant. All have followed their Librarians' scryings to the planet, searching for the newly materialised Fallen.'

 

There are only 3 known remaining 2nd founding Unforgiven chapters, and only one of the three named there searching for those is 2nd founding. The GotC and the Consecrators are both later foundings. There are half a dozen present, obviously well exceeding the number of known 2nd founding chapters regardless.

 

Thus, I think we'll see initial contact with these new chapters and induction as part of the lore we see in our supplement.

Edited October 24, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[bigtrouble]

My mistake Wrath. Thanks.